You are all delusional!

[Nanashi]

(Regarding the OP:)

 

What makes science and math so great? The majority of that research has just led to atomic/hydrogen bombs, biological weapons, HAARP and DARPA, and fraudulent economic systems that benefit an elite technocracy. I can't see how quantum physics makes life any better; wasting money exploring the universe's origins and where to strip-mine next.

 

If I use 17th century to the mid-19th century example of Japan-- 250 years of relative peace. As long as people bathe and eat healthily, while cultivating inner harmony; making an art out of living: who needs the "wonders" of our "marvelous" dystopian present, and possible futures?

[de_paradise]

The burden of proof is on you, to decide to see a qigong practitioner, high level cultivator or whoever can possibly supply proof to you first hand about qi. Likewise, the responsibility is your's only to see if all the other baloney is true. When you have exhausted all possible research angles, and found that its not true, then you can post your findings.

[VCraigP]

Everyone is delusional

 

Best answer yet.

 

It aint just us buddy!

 

Craig

[sheng zhen]

This is something I wrote a long time ago but did not post. But I think this might be a contribution for this thread.

 

So here are my thoughts on the mechanics of delusion:

 

There are many levels of delusion. Some are serious diseases, others are everyday delutions we share with the rest of humanity. But the mechanics are the same at every level.

 

Everything we experience pass through our auric field(which can be considered a representation of our consciousness and subconsciousness). And the auric field consists of many levels, or layers. We basicly have the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual(though there are many many more sub-layers, internal layers and supra-layers).

 

Whenever we experience something it needs to pass through all these layers before it reach our waking self. If there is a trauma, an energetic substance, a memory, a drug-induced illusion or a culturally progammed concept, it can be seen as a fog or some substance in the respective layer of the aura. We call this a blockage or an issue. The experience of reality that pass through this issue will be distorted a littlebit.

 

So when it finally reach our sensory organs(the brain and our waking mind) it is distorted. If we believe this distortion is the true reality, then we are deluded. It dosent matter what level of seriousness the delusion is, or how subtle it is. Our sense of reality is disruped and distorted.

 

If there is an auric distortion in t.ex.the emotional layer, we will get an emotional reaction that does not correspond to reality. If there a distortion in the mental layer we will get a distorted sense of logic that is not really logical. If it is in the spiritual layer we will get amazing spiritual realizations that are not real.

 

This is ofcource a very generalized picture just to illustrate the point. Our auric fields are so full of distortions that we hardly ever really see reality. We live within our own delusions, surreal logic and fantacy spirituality.

 

And when we use this distorted sense of reality to try to understand what is distorted within ourselves, and then clear out our own auric field through visualizations or different practices, we too often just make things worse. Putting more distortions into our aura.

 

The only thing that can clear out our distortions and bring us closer to experience reality is stillness. Simply because there is hardly anything we do that is not based on the delusion and failed logic we live within.

 

When the water is still the mud will settle and the water becomes clear. Then, and only then, we can see.

[Ya Mu]

This is something I wrote a long time ago but did not post. But I think this might be a contribution for this thread.

 

So here are my thoughts on the mechanics of delusion:

 

There are many levels of delusion. Some are serious diseases, others are everyday delutions we share with the rest of humanity. But the mechanics are the same at every level.

 

Everything we experience pass through our auric field(which can be considered a representation of our consciousness and subconsciousness). And the auric field consists of many levels, or layers. We basicly have the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual(though there are many many more sub-layers, internal layers and supra-layers).

 

Whenever we experience something it needs to pass through all these layers before it reach our waking self. If there is a trauma, an energetic substance, a memory, a drug-induced illusion or a culturally progammed concept, it can be seen as a fog or some substance in the respective layer of the aura. We call this a blockage or an issue. The experience of reality that pass through this issue will be distorted a littlebit.

 

So when it finally reach our sensory organs(the brain and our waking mind) it is distorted. If we believe this distortion is the true reality, then we are deluded. It dosent matter what level of seriousness the delusion is, or how subtle it is. Our sense of reality is disruped and distorted.

 

If there is an auric distortion in t.ex.the emotional layer, we will get an emotional reaction that does not correspond to reality. If there a distortion in the mental layer we will get a distorted sense of logic that is not really logical. If it is in the spiritual layer we will get amazing spiritual realizations that are not real.

 

This is ofcource a very generalized picture just to illustrate the point. Our auric fields are so full of distortions that we hardly ever really see reality. We live within our own delusions, surreal logic and fantacy spirituality.

 

And when we use this distorted sense of reality to try to understand what is distorted within ourselves, and then clear out our own auric field through visualizations or different practices, we too often just make things worse. Putting more distortions into our aura.

 

The only thing that can clear out our distortions and bring us closer to experience reality is stillness. Simply because there is hardly anything we do that is not based on the delusion and failed logic we live within.

 

When the water is still the mud will settle and the water becomes clear. Then, and only then, we can see.

 

Great post!

[Nanashi]

Though, I am reminded of this little story:

 

A story is told about a Zen master and a Hindu guru, who were walking together along a riverbank and decided to visit a nearby island. "Let's walk to the island," said the guru. "Why not take the ferry?" suggested the Zen master. "Because," said the guru, "I've spent twenty years learning to walk on water." "Why take twenty years learning to walk on water," asked the master, "when you can take a ferry for a penny?"

[松永道]

That Guy will be cultivating someday, in one form or another. He wouldn't be here otherwise. The seed is already in the soil.

 

But skepticism is an important thing, not to be given up on. Belief is a quality, perhaps the only one, that should be utterly selfish. Believe in yourself. Not what you wish could be or what some group has agreed on. Every one of us is a scientist of our own life experience.

 

"The world is flat," said the most learned man of his day.

 

I wish THAT guy could have circumnavigated the globe. The way strong skepticism cedes to personal experience is beautiful.

 

 

 

I like people with different views.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

"The world is flat," said the most learned man of his day.

 

 

 

What do you mean? Are you trying to tell me it's not flat! Next your gonna tell me it hasn't got a hole in the middle!

[宁]

Different views? People?

 

Neah, it's just an act of real bravery, isn't it, 'That Guy'?

 

So brave of you to come here with a cool mask (nobody knows anything about you - but you surely seem to know next to everything about everyone).

So brave of you to attack other people's beliefs, just because you can do it.

 

Really really brave. I'm all (but) impressed.

[Marblehead]

I need to leave for a short while so that I may become delusional without being criticized for it.

 

C U Later

[Aetherous]

That Guy will be cultivating someday, in one form or another. He wouldn't be here otherwise. The seed is already in the soil.

 

I agree. In fact, I think he already is, since he was attempting to awaken us. It can be seen as a form of "karma yoga" (don't know if there's a Taoist term for this).

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I don't know, I feel very sad, people are now attacking the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' and our founder Mr.ThatGuy. I just read some of the forum rules and I may be new here but it's seems to me that's not allowed. Having said that, the upside is I reckon the more abuse we take the more of a polarization effect it may have, thus attracting more followers. Pretty soon we may be able to apply for martyr status!

 

I feel as self appointed secretary(and No.1 disciple!)of the the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' I should put forth the following rules to our system/non-system to enlighten-non-ment.

 

1. Watch as much T.V as you like, but keep it light, steer clear of anything that may lead to needless introspection/delusion.

 

2. Read as many books as you like also, as long as there's no crazy stuff; that includes fiction. Stay away from Lord Of The Rings, it's a 'gateway' book.

 

3. Educate yourself by all means but don't delude yourself into believing it may ever be useful.

 

4. Movies are good source of protection from delusion, 'legally Blonde' would be one we recommend. But don't delude yourself that Reese Witherspoon can act.

 

5. Try to get involved in your countries politics, that's always useful, it's our number one recommendation for staving off delusion.

 

The Secretary

 

The 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' an almost Non-Profit Organization(we're not deluded).

[Biff]

What sort of response would you like to your post?

 

Lol. Exactly.

[That Guy]

Well seems people enjoy bashing me after I'm gone, so I must have hit a sensitive nerve on some wise spiritual all accepting practitioners.

 

Little1, YOU SHOULD BE IMPRESSED! I could say this in some blog somewhere and just delete your immature comments, but I do it here, in fair ground where all be heard. I prefer to say it to your face rather than behind your backs. Does it really matter if you know nothing of me? I m here to discuss some of your spiritual practice and dare I say it, delusion.

 

You obviously lost sight of what this topic was about due to your emotions, you became deluded....

 

 

Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

 

Thanks for the support, but go read Naruto, it may teach you some new skills. Check this out, proper Tang chi penetrating attack! This is how you can penetrate hard surfaces using chi! There is cartoon violence so be careful!

 

sheng zhen, nanashi, 松永道 for example had something constructive and interesting to say, thank you

[Marblehead]

I agree. In fact, I think he already is, since he was attempting to awaken us. It can be seen as a form of "karma yoga" (don't know if there's a Taoist term for this).

 

There is but I have been disallowed from using it as it falls within the limits of the 'profanity act'.

 

Happy Trails!

[Aetherous]

That Guy,

 

I wasn't attempting to insult you with what I said. I believe you are actually cultivating, unknowingly, by doing what you do naturally.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

 

Thanks for the support, but go read Naruto, it may teach you some new skills. Check this out, proper Tang chi penetrating attack! This is how you can penetrate hard surfaces using chi! There is cartoon violence so be careful!

 

 

Chi attacks!!! What's this...... you are deluded!!!!!!

 

As secretary of the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' I feel it is my responsibility to all the students to remove you from your position due to your impaired state of delusion. It is unfortunate but as is sometimes the case with this kind of high level practice/non-practice, people, even the highest up, can lose their rational judgement . You, as our venerated leader should have known that watching animae can lead to serious delusions(especially the ones with the sexy girls...I don't blame you though).

 

Forthwith, all powers and offices of the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System'will fall, sadly, to me. That includes legal rights to the use of the nameand any profits currently held within our accounts or future profits. Furthermore, It has been decided that the almost non-profit organization formerly known as the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' will now be know as the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' effective immediately!!!

 

If you have any contention with this decision ThatGuy(formerly Mr.ThatGuy)you will be advised to contact my lawyer(I don't have one at the moment, so give me a couple of days, thanks).

 

ps. I really did like that anime, if you ever learn that blue lightening chi stuff you really gotta teach me!

[Iyoiyo]

Lets let this conversation end, nothing productive is being accomplished. Whatever disclaimers Guy and others may be including, it is obvious they're attempting to prove their own infalibility (or are already convinced of it) with disregard for actually listening to each other.

 

The gift of insults-- If somebody gives you a present, and you do not accept it, to whom does it belong?

[Apech]

 

 

Forthwith, all powers and offices of the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System'will fall, sadly, to me. That includes legal rights to the use of the nameand any profits currently held within our accounts or future profits. Furthermore, It has been decided that the almost non-profit organization formerly known as the 'Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' will now be know as the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' effective immediately!!!

 

 

 

 

Ninpo,

 

I would like to sign up for this but I feel that the very act of joining and paying the (presumably substantial) enrollment fee would be a betrayal of the principle of Non-Delusionalism. If there was any snow I would go skiing instead obviously.

 

A.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Delusions can be fun, but they can also be harmful.

 

So before you attack me, hear me out....

 

So you have some free time, why waste it "cultivating" what ou can't even prove is real?

Why not sit down and educate yourself in something that matters like science and math?

Why not learn some new skills like painting and sculpting?

 

You sit there for hours at a time doing nothing/meditating. You learn nothing that way (obviously ). Go out watch some TV do something fun at least sheesh! And yeah some enjoy meditating, well they've had to condition themselves to enjoy it because otherwise no one in their right mind would do it everyday for so long. Just for the record I consider relaxing and reflecting on your thoughts different from meditation since true meditation seems to require an empty mind, no thoughts.

 

Chakras....why not learn real medicine, learn about the real chakras, your organs! and stop trying to feel things that are there, but not in some mystical forrm you believe they are. Throw your heart at someone they'll feel it when it smacks them on the head, throw your "heart chakra" at them (if you can find it in the first place ) and they ll feel nothing, because there is nothing there!

 

So much energy here is wasted in fairy tales it's kinda sad

I mean a kid has imaginary friends and experiences we have a laugh and tell them the truth, they imagining things. Now an adult has them and we can do anything, because its been labelled a spiritual or religious experience. Whats up with that?!

 

I also see so much "visualisation" type stuff that it makes me wonder how long one must visualise before they buy into their own fantasy! I dont need to visualise light to see it, sound to hear it, pain to feel it etc because they are real! If my dantian was reaal I would feel it, all I feel is my stomach rumbling

Can you seriously suggest that the majority of people are born lacking the ability to feel and see stuff like this? Are we born handicapped and need to "cultivate" in order to regain our full power? please!

 

Yes I know look at was some awesome masters can do, well they practice martial arts or do exercises that allow them to do these things, its more about conditioning their body rather than cultivating! I wanna see someone who cultivates their body without conditioning it do some crazy thing like a 1 finger pushup or whatever.

 

As for some of the masters seen doing mystical things on video, well if they ve done it for the camera why not do it one more time for some top and i mean TOP! scientists to see?!? Dont give me that "they wont listen to us" stuff because all they have to do is walk up to them, there is no need for the first meeting to be some kinda formal encounter. Just g to the top biologist and zap him with some bio energy, he ll make time for you then!

 

And yes monks dry wett cloth in really cold conditions etc, but thats because they ve mastered their bodies functions. We can all raise our bodies temperature for example, not at will but we can, go get a fever you ll see! No energy none sense needed!

 

This is getting long, so I should end it! The more I look into this stuff the more it seems like some kinda cult, it may not harm you, but lets just say you could be spending your time doing something better and being happier as a result, you may think you re happy thanks to this stuff, but you re just being happy because you re delusional.

 

I dont mean to offend any of you, and chances are I wont, because my words probably wont break through the barrier of delusions built over time. I hope you read the whole post, sorry its long...

 

Thank you for reading

 

Yes, I've thought about this before. I'm a young guy now, and I spend most of my time devoted to cultivation, or things related to doing cultivation. Yeah, I could go out to lots of parties and have drunken sex a lot. I could study something "useful", like some sort of science, or some skill that I could use to get money and all that. I could just be fooling myself.

 

But you can turn the argument around. Plenty of people go out and have drunken sex, they devote years of their time doing stuff because they think that's what they need to do to have a "successful" and "happy" life. How do they know? It's what their parents, teachers, bosses etc have told them throughout their whole lives. Maybe the cultivators are the ones who have it real? Maybe we're the ones that question and think in a way that much more radical and much more "real" than anyone else.

 

Or maybe we're all delusional. Maybe we should all just give up. Or maybe we should all just do something entirely different?

 

Is there even a way to know for sure? I'd like to find that way, so I cultivate. Plenty of other people want to find that way, so they study science.

 

If you do it with the right intention and dedication, it all goes to the same place I think.

[Stigweard]

This is something I wrote a long time ago but did not post. But I think this might be a contribution for this thread.

 

So here are my thoughts on the mechanics of delusion:

 

There are many levels of delusion. Some are serious diseases, others are everyday delutions we share with the rest of humanity. But the mechanics are the same at every level.

 

Everything we experience pass through our auric field(which can be considered a representation of our consciousness and subconsciousness). And the auric field consists of many levels, or layers. We basicly have the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual(though there are many many more sub-layers, internal layers and supra-layers).

 

Whenever we experience something it needs to pass through all these layers before it reach our waking self. If there is a trauma, an energetic substance, a memory, a drug-induced illusion or a culturally progammed concept, it can be seen as a fog or some substance in the respective layer of the aura. We call this a blockage or an issue. The experience of reality that pass through this issue will be distorted a littlebit.

 

So when it finally reach our sensory organs(the brain and our waking mind) it is distorted. If we believe this distortion is the true reality, then we are deluded. It dosent matter what level of seriousness the delusion is, or how subtle it is. Our sense of reality is disruped and distorted.

 

If there is an auric distortion in t.ex.the emotional layer, we will get an emotional reaction that does not correspond to reality. If there a distortion in the mental layer we will get a distorted sense of logic that is not really logical. If it is in the spiritual layer we will get amazing spiritual realizations that are not real.

 

This is ofcource a very generalized picture just to illustrate the point. Our auric fields are so full of distortions that we hardly ever really see reality. We live within our own delusions, surreal logic and fantacy spirituality.

 

And when we use this distorted sense of reality to try to understand what is distorted within ourselves, and then clear out our own auric field through visualizations or different practices, we too often just make things worse. Putting more distortions into our aura.

 

The only thing that can clear out our distortions and bring us closer to experience reality is stillness. Simply because there is hardly anything we do that is not based on the delusion and failed logic we live within.

 

When the water is still the mud will settle and the water becomes clear. Then, and only then, we can see.

Yup

 

We are ever three steps behind reality. In a way all we are getting is an echo.

 

1. The phenomenon

2. Our perception of phenomenon filtered by the limitations of our sensory capacity

3. Our interpretation of this perception which will be filtered, censored, edited by our personal view of the world.

 

With this sort of "delay" as the phenomenon registers in our conscious mind, our perception of life is merely a remembering of the moment that has just gone. Thus "living in the now" is the process of "catching up" with life.

 

And then if we try and communicate our perception of this phenomenon, the reality is filtered once again through the limitations of language and description.

 

Therefore the purpose of meditation:

 

1. Drop conceptual descriptions (i.e. this is happening, now this is happening, I am trying to achieve this etc)

2. Quiet the mind so that we can dissolve the constructs of our conceptual self

3. Refine our sensory capacity and develop 'true sight'

4. Experience reality directly

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Last year I taught middle school Latin, so I hear these types of arguments all the time from both students and parents. "It is a waste of time," "it is not useful for anything," "it has no practical application," "why don't you teach them Spanish instead?" I have heard it all. And in truth there are some practical benefits for learning Latin, such as an increased English vocabulary, ease learning any later romance language, etc. But in the end, the real reason behind teaching it goes beyond all of that and into the ineffable. As with any part of a liberal arts education, it is just good to be a well rounded person who has been educated in a wide variety of topics and who understands his cultural roots.

 

 

On the same token, spiritual pursuits may have some minor practical benefits (clarity of mind, increased memory, equanimity, better health, dream control, etc.), but the real reason is much more difficult to pin down. No matter how much science or math you study, there is still always going to be more. No matter how much TV you watch or alcohol you drink, you will still crave for more (some times even when you are still watching one show or currently drunk). Even the study of philosophy and the faith in religion does necessarily quench this feeling that things are not quiet right, that you are not quiet right. You may drink and screw and read and try your damnedest to try to hide from it, but in the end it is still there. Boredom. Disquiet. Suffering. The unsatisfactory quality of our lives. All of those practical peaces of advice that you offered are just distractions from this fact of life.

 

There are people, but from antiquity and modernity, from the East and the West, who claim that meditation, that understanding the inner process of the mind and the body's energy, can lead to a different mode of operating in the world. To a free, liberated state of existence. A state of effortless effort, where one is able to perceive and operate in the universe in a radically different way. If this was true, would it not be worth the investment of some of our free time? Even if it might not be true, does that mean we should not try?

 

If you do not experiment to learn the truth for yourself, then you are not a scientist or a rationalist. You are just an evangelical missionary in the Church of Materialism. Have fun preaching your blind faith.

[Birch]

I dunno. Y'all had me at "drunken sex"

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

If somebody gives you a present, and you do not accept it, to whom does it belong?

I don't know, but if the said present is of any value I would highly recommend donating it to the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System', our coffers are getting pretty slim.

 

Ninpo,

 

I would like to sign up for this but I feel that the very act of joining and paying the (presumably substantial) enrollment fee would be a betrayal of the principle of Non-Delusionalism. If there was any snow I would go skiing instead obviously.

 

A.

 

No Apepch7, you see the mere act of donating a substantial sum to our society proves your sincerity, the general rule of thumb is(surprisingly)the more you donate the more serious and dedicated you are. But it is within my power, in fact, to appoint you as secretary to the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' due to the position having recently become vacated because I have recently achieved 'Non-Delusional God status'. In view of this dire need to appoint a secretary I am pleased to inform you that all devotional/Non-Delusional monies be wavered at this point in lieu of your devotional/Non-Delusional service. Let's get this band wagon rolling!

 

Ps. If there was any snow you would go skiing! You live in Manchester, who are you kidding!

 

I dunno. Y'all had me at "drunken sex"

 

We ALL had you at drunken sex!!!I think I would have remembered that, still, stranger things have happened.

 

Apologies Kate

 

I think It's time for me to shut up now.

 

I'm not promising anything mind you.

[That Guy]

That Guy,

 

I wasn't attempting to insult you with what I said. I believe you are actually cultivating, unknowingly, by doing what you do naturally.

 

I m sorry scotty, I really did believe you were being honest in what you said

 

 

 

And for the record whats wrong in believing in science?? I believe in it because it has to be prven to be accepted, it not about just "some feeling" you get...

 

If you do not experiment to learn the truth for yourself, then you are not a scientist or a rationalist. You are just an evangelical missionary in the Church of Materialism. Have fun preaching your blind faith.

 

And whats up with that? I said I did experiment, and concluded I was wasting my time, seeking something that isn't really there, something you have to believe unconditionally to find, and thats just ridiculous to me...

Do I need to believe in wind for it to blow me away? in water to get wet? in fire to get burned?

 

And since when does science mean materialism? Science is the study of the world around you, it just happens to include matter I m actually quite the minimalist, I only want what I need and a few luxuries that the modern world has, like a computer and internet

 

Science isn't evil, its strict, it just asks you to "prove it!" And if you can't thats that then. Whats taking them so long to find chi??

 

I think James Randi is quite a prick, but he does expose fakes, and Im thankful for that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDLRib5CQ . I wanna see a master win his prize money, but it still hasnt happened, and even though you ll say masters dont care about money, or want to remain in secret what about that immature little punk, who happens to have received some simple "paranormal" power? All these years and not one has shown up and won...

 

Now I dont know if any of you listen to coast to coast am, but once in a while Uri Geller comes up, and they still treat the guy as some kinda psychic, when its been proven hes a fraud. I just can't believe how people can sometimes deny these things when the evidence is so strong!

 

I want a master to prove chi beyond a shadow of a doubt, I want an enlightened person to show us why is he more than just a philosopher I wanna see things accepted out in the open by a panel that has nothing to really gain and no attachment to it, I want the truth! (and I know I said no attachments, we all have attachment to our realities blah blah, but you know if you come across a reality so much greater than your attachment you will probably be detached)

 

ps. Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that, I thought you probably did like it, I know a fellow narutard when I see one Maybe I have received extended intuition from practising my own system

 

And yeah I said I was gone but Once i started typing to scotty I just kept going