You are all delusional!

[wudangspirit]

Maybe you should spend your time searching your own ego rather than criticize. Or better yet, maybe you should continue to search for someone or something that can show you the way. You may have spent a lot of time or "wasted" a lot of time on something that didn't work for you but maybe meditation has taught you a lesson to keep searching.

 

How long did you spend on trying to cultivate this way? Why do you think it didn't work for you? Why do you think it doesn't work for others just because it didn't work for you? Maybe it is not what we do. Maybe it is the issue of what you didn't do.

 

Check yourself first before criticizing others. We all came here to earth alone and we will leave alone. Don't worry about what other do by criticizing them. Worry about yourself. If you are okay with yourself then you won't worry about us!

 

 

 

Ya Mu, if I ever get the funding you're on! But right now I couldnt afford the lab you mentioned for 5 minutes.

Now I know you dont wanna hear this, but just thought of it, why not win Randis challenge and fund the research using that million? just a thought.

The study of qi has been going on for millennia right? So it shouldn't be its infancy, why not get a group of "genuine" masters and high level practitioners and set something up though? something practically undeniable! for the world to see?

 

You happen to mention animals, well because I am open minded and willing to experiment contrary to popular belief in this thread So anyway my dog has 1 bad eye, problem seem to be dry eyes, no tears get produced so this eye slime and whatnot builds up and it seems constantly irritated, its been a few years and no vet can help, best we can do is soothe the irritation, but even then it hurts to see him like that. Please recommend something I could try even as a sceptic. Thank you

 

I will probably read the data you posted sometime.

Albert,

 

I will communicate my beliefs and challenge yours, thank you

 

Wudangspirit,

 

it does feel pretty good to have mastered the world

But seriously, I have taken time, how many times must I repeat this point.....? I just want the time back, or exchange it for some more useful knowledge or skill.

 

Maybe I m here to find out what keeps you doing what you do?

[That Guy]

Seeing as this thread has come back from the dead...

 

That guy,

 

Since Ya Mu was kind enough to dig up some links to some hard data, consider here how your faith in science might be distortion of reality. Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in skepticism, analysis, and the scientific method. But consider...

 

1. As Ya Mu stated, research that is considered acceptable by modern standards is VERY expensive. Someone like him who pracitces medical qigong for a living with an extraordinary success rate is "anecdotal" evidence. To do it "right" is so very difficult.

 

2. As I have said many times, a researcher has to have at least a bit of faith in what they are doing before they can really do serious research. But in the present culture of science, anything not agreeing with the current worldview is immediately and loudly shouted down. There are guys who make it their business to get a hold on stuff and "debunk" it. You know, guys like The Amazing Randi or Michael Shermer. I'm sure they do a lot of good, but they also create an environment in which new ideas are dismissed before they can be properly investigated. Then enough people get convinced that something has been debunked and so someone trying to research it gets shunned by colleagues, denied tenure, can't get funding, etc.

 

3. Consider the foibles of skepticism in the past. Some of the greatest physicist of their generation refused to believe in the ideas of the next generation. Like atoms and relativity. Dalton proposed the first physical/chemical argument for the atomic hypotheses and it took something like 200 years before scientists finally agreed, yes this is correct.

 

The fact is it is extremely hard to change the basic worldview of scientists on a large scale, just like it is for any other group of people. People will find all sorts of excuses to not believe you if they don't want to, and the moment one person tries to break away from the pack they are crucified.

 

Westerner are taught from a very young age that scientists are this model of rationality, nobly pursuing truth with pure objectivity. And that science basically understands all phenomena of physics, biology and chemistry with only a few loose ends to tie up. And that if something is empirically verifiable the enlightened scientists would be the first to know. Having examine the content, history, and philosophy of science, I find these claims to be naive and laughable hubris.

 

So don't hold your breath for scientists acknowledging the reality of chi any time soon, regardless of evidence. It's a sad but true reality.

 

Instead, you could go see someone like Michael Lomax (Ya Mu) who can project chi and see what happens. You might just have to invest some of your time, money, and energy to do so. Are you up to the challenge?

 

Well why not challenge it?! If you have the truth on your side you have nothing to fear right?

 

And if you can prove your stuff to them they will have faith! but you cant prove it with words or even a basic demonstrations, you have to prove it to them in a way they would be unable to reject it, in a controlled environment.

 

Where does Ya Mu practice? just out of curiosity?

 

And have you read about "orgone" energy, is that real? is that chi? why did it vanish from science? Thats te closest thing I found to chi being discovered. Thats why I am mentioning it

[Creation]

Well why not challenge it?! If you have the truth on your side you have nothing to fear right?

Did you read my post? You really have no idea how strong the pressure to conform is academia. You do have something to fear: having your reputation crucified, losing your job, etc.

 

And if you can prove your stuff to them they will have faith! but you cant prove it with words or even a basic demonstrations, you have to prove it to them in a way they would be unable to reject it, in a controlled environment.

You make it sound so easy. It is not easy for the reasons I posted. It is really hard.

 

Honesty, I am fully confident that science will eventually understand this chi business. That is the faith that I have in science. But it might take a long time (remember my atomic hypothesis example), and I will not refuse to learn something that can help me here and now just because science has not understood it yet.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Creation

[Easy]

That Guy,

 

Your thread was at the top of the list yesterday when I came lurking through and it was a major incentive for me to sign up as a bum. I wanted to know the nature of your agenda. You might be able to tell me in a sentence or two, but I am not necessarily going to believe them--nothing personal of course--I will believe that you are telling me something because that is obviously what will be happening in that moment and what else is there?

 

You write that you are skeptical. Does that mean you are a skeptic? It appears that you are and that you believe in skepticism. It has been my experience that a skeptic who believes in their own skepticism disempowers themselves by about half. Best not to define oneself.

 

You ask: "Would you get operated on by an acupuncturist? herbalist? psychic surgeon?"

 

This is kind of incoherent because I know of no acupuncturist (or herbalist) who would undertake surgery unless they also happened to be a qualified surgeon. But I would trust a good acupuncturist to do the anesthesia because I have had acupuncture treatments that stopped really bad pain. A psychic surgeon...hey, why not, they are cheap and it might work. If it didn't, one could go find someone else.

 

You write: "I believe the (sic) is great philosophical knowledge to be be gained from some texts, philosophy not some kinda magic wizardry or divinity"

 

(Just out of curiosity, is English your first language?) I see there is this inordinate emphasis in this thread placed on belief. A belief in great philosophy, a belief against magic etc. What is the point of a belief except to create a limitation against the fullest expansion of one's life? I see a great deal of benefit in doing one's damnedest to be a capable wizard, or if time is limited at least keep it open as an option. It should not have anything to do with a belief or a non-belief. I think the point is, at least for some of us, to engage with the great out there and go balls to the wall with whatever comes up in the moment. (I've written a couple of blog essays on this subject that can be found here and here.)

 

For example I read Nordic Runes in a shamanic ritualistic kind of environment...good set and setting. Now I don't believe anything about it...what's happening, what's not happening, what's good, what's bad or right or wrong. It is like a game of handball. One does not believe in handball, one just plays the game. The more will, intention and intensity are involved the more satisfaction there is to be derived, beliefs just get in the way of fundamental satisfaction. Now in the 20 years or so I have been doing these readings, no one ever told me it was a wrong reading and in fact some people have said their reading changed their lives in a major way for the better. (I translate this as them really saying, "The reading gave me the excuse to actually do what I wanted to do." Readings don't change people's lives, people change their own lives; same way that healers don't heal others, bodies heal themselves given a little help and encouragement either from within or from the outside.)

[goldisheavy]

GIH

The reason I have faith is science is because both you and I can look around and see what has been made possible using it. Computers, Aircraft, Satellites, Submarines and so on. Its not faith, the effects of science are right in front me, literally

 

Do you believe that I can dream? Like if I tell you I had a dream and go on to describe it, would you tell me to go fuck myself because there is no evidence of it anywhere to be seen, or would you accept it? What would you do, honestly? What do you do? How do you react to people recounting dreams? What about feelings? If I say I feel weird, do you believe me?

 

Some may be theories, and thats fine too, because it's a theory and thats how it presents itself. And yeah I will just have to have faith in science, but seeing what it is capable of doing (good and bad) its track record is quite impressive.

 

So if a taoist builds a boat, is it evidence of taoism? If a qi gong master makes a painting, can this be evidence of qi the same way that when a scientist makes a telescope it is evidence of science?

[Old Man Contradiction]

When I joined a class taught by a man who has spent his life seeking out the best in the science of health and combat, every preconception of qi and western science I had was useless. No matter what your belief system is, it does not and never will equate with the truth of actual experience.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Desert Eagle]

...

Edited January 15, 2010 by Desert Eagle

[-O-]

Edited September 30, 2009 by -O-

[longrhythm]

"Maybe I m here to find out what keeps you doing what you do?"

 

As I alluded to in my first, more aggressive response- being under immediate attack is the best way to turn up the voltage through your nerves, and the most immediate test of your ability to control your focus, attention, intention, parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems. When I first started fighting, a few wrong moves had me totally confused. There aren't many circumstances that will so clearly illustrate to you if you're aware of what's happening with each part of your body as this.

 

As my practice deepens, my composure deepens. The experiential evidence is too tangible to write off as magic. I've grown in a way that's beyond technical development, in a way that boils down to being able to control my heartrate, breathing, attention, posture, fine and gross motor skills in high stress situations that without my ongoing practice would otherwise take me out of my own body.

 

Question for you That Guy- whats the most stressful situation you could find yourself in? Public speaking, physical confrontation, anything that a mere anticipation of it gets your heart pounding and makes you clumsy?

 

Those are the moments that smooth out from a solid practice. It's not magic, but it is. My two cents for you

 

 

GIH

The reason I have faith is science is because both you and I can look around and see what has been made possible using it. Computers, Aircraft, Satellites, Submarines and so on. Its not faith, the effects of science are right in front me, literally

Some may be theories, and thats fine too, because it's a theory and thats how it presents itself. And yeah I will just have to have faith in science, but seeing what it is capable of doing (good and bad) its track record is quite impressive.

[Stigweard]

If have had "lively" debates before over whether or not Taoism is a science. I favoured the affirmative in the sense that it is an ontology, or a science of existence.

 

However, even though we have sophisticated objectified models like the I Ching, we simply have to accept that Taoism, to a certain extent, most definitely incorporates subjective analysis.

 

In regard to scientific proof of Qi, like Ya Mu demonstrated through the links, science, whilst yet to have the instrumentation to measure it, has definitely been able to measure the effects. My theory is that, because Qi is fundamentally a biological/natural energy, the "best" testing instruments are biological based (i.e. plants, bacteria, as well as advanced human sensory perception).

 

It would seem rather silly to me, if not delusional, to deny yourself of the scientifically proven benefits of meditation and qigong merely because conventional science has yet to quantify the subtle Universal energies.

[Mal]

[sheng zhen]

GIH

The reason I have faith is science is because both you and I can look around and see what has been made possible using it. Computers, Aircraft, Satellites, Submarines and so on. Its not faith, the effects of science are right in front me, literally

Some may be theories, and thats fine too, because it's a theory and thats how it presents itself. And yeah I will just have to have faith in science, but seeing what it is capable of doing (good and bad) its track record is quite impressive.

Yes, science has created a lot of mechanical things, and has a good understanding of mechanical laws. But this must NOT be confused with biological things! Science has hardly scratched the surface on understanding biological things. And biological science is certainly not as successful as we have been with mechanical science.

 

The biggest mistake the scientific community is doing is to apply their mechanical laws on to biological(alive) systems. They have certainly not succeeded with that yet, and I suspect they never will. Biological system are not made of parts put toghether like machines. They are GROWN based on a continuous dialogue with the surrounding systems on all leves from microstructure to macrostructure. This is an unbroken fractal complexity that is impossible to understand within a traditional mechanical context.

 

This concept is something anyone can SEE, and touch and feel. It is right in front of us, within us and all around us. Still science people stubbornly try to put bological systems into their mechanical understanding.

 

I have no more "faith" in science than I have in Qi or God or astral dragons

[hagar]

Yes, science has created a lot of mechanical things, and has a good understanding of mechanical laws. But this must NOT be confused with biological things! Science has hardly scratched the surface on understanding biological things. And biological science is certainly not as successful as we have been with mechanical science.

 

The biggest mistake the scientific community is doing is to apply their mechanical laws on to biological(alive) systems. They have certainly not succeeded with that yet, and I suspect they never will. Biological system are not made of parts put toghether like machines. They are GROWN based on a continuous dialogue with the surrounding systems on all leves from microstructure to macrostructure. This is an unbroken fractal complexity that is impossible to understand within a traditional mechanical context.

 

This concept is something anyone can SEE, and touch and feel. It is right in front of us, within us and all around us. Still science people stubbornly try to put bological systems into their mechanical understanding.

 

I have no more "faith" in science than I have in Qi or God or astral dragons

 

hear, hear!

 

h

[Gerard]

Yes, we are all delusional, everyone to a certain degree. That's why we are here suffering we all have kilesas (defilements): anger, greed, hate, delusion, doubt, conceit, etc. as a result of having thoughts (citta). Train the mind and you'll eventually tame citta and eliminate the defilements.

 

I will link these vids from a different thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=144954

 

 

Mind = Samsara.

[Marblehead]

That's why we are here suffering we all have kilesas (defilements): anger, greed, hate, delusion, doubt, conceit, etc. as a result of having thoughts (citta).

 

I don't have any of those. Well, okay, maybe a little conceit. Hehehe.

 

Happy Trails!

[wudangspirit]

In Taoism there is no concept of suffering. Suffering is another emotion or concept. Suffering is giving up your power to something or someone. Life is a challenge (not sufferage), therefore we have options. We can sit around and mope or still our minds and see clearly the options that lie before us.

 

Yes, we are all delusional, everyone to a certain degree. That's why we are here suffering we all have kilesas (defilements): anger, greed, hate, delusion, doubt, conceit, etc. as a result of having thoughts (citta). Train the mind and you'll eventually tame citta and eliminate the defilements.

 

I will link these vids from a different thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=144954

Mind = Samsara.

[Marblehead]

In Taoism there is no concept of suffering. Suffering is another emotion or concept. Suffering is giving up your power to something or someone. Life is a challenge (not sufferage), therefore we have options. We can sit around and mope or still our minds and see clearly the options that lie before us.

 

Very well said!

 

Happy Trails!

[Gerard]

In Taoism there is no concept of suffering. Suffering is another emotion or concept. Suffering is giving up your power to something or someone. Life is a challenge (not sufferage), therefore we have options. We can sit around and mope or still our minds and see clearly the options that lie before us.

 

You will understand what the First Noble Truth is one day in eternity, until then enjoy your path.

[JustARandomPanda]

Some may be theories, and thats fine too, because it's a theory and thats how it presents itself. And yeah I will just have to have faith in science, but seeing what it is capable of doing (good and bad) its track record is quite impressive.

 

That Guy....do you love your dog?

[Vajrahridaya]

In Taoism there is no concept of suffering. Suffering is another emotion or concept. Suffering is giving up your power to something or someone. Life is a challenge (not sufferage), therefore we have options. We can sit around and mope or still our minds and see clearly the options that lie before us.

 

In Buddhism, we even consider attaining the realm of highly informed bliss heaven realms as a realm of suffering, because it still has the potentiality to re-manifest a hell realm in the future, even after eons of merit burning as a long lived God life. Eons is like trillions of trillions of our years.

 

Without direct insight into dependent origination, liberation from the future possibility of intense psychological and physical suffering is not possible... according to Buddhism.

[Marblehead]

You will understand what the First Noble Truth is one day in eternity, until then enjoy your path.

 

There is no 'first noble truth'. Life is. Period. That's it. No tricks. No delusions. What's left? Live!

 

Happy Trails!

 

 

In Buddhism, we even consider attaining the realm of highly informed bliss heaven realms as a realm of suffering, because it still has the potentiality to re-manifest a hell realm in the future, even after eons of merit burning as a long lived God life. Eons is like trillions of trillions of our years.

 

Without direct insight into dependent origination, liberation from the future possibility of intense psychological and physical suffering is not possible... according to Buddhism.

 

Why do you Buddhists continue suffering so much? Cheezze! Reminds me of the Christian "You are born in sin."

 

What's wrong with being born into a life of wonderous potentiality and making the best of it?

 

Stop suffering so much! Stop sinning so much! Enjoy this wonderous manifest reality! There is nothing wrong with pleasure. It's all very natural.

 

Happy Trails!

[wudangspirit]

Suffering is an attachment. In Taoism we practice non-attachment, not denial. We understand that there are ups and downs but sufferage is a state of being a victim. Why victimize yourself? Why give in and tell yourself "Well I must suffer".

 

We have options. We don't need to suffer. Live now my brother then you can eventually see what eternity is. Learn from the past to live in the present so you can see your future!

 

You will understand what the First Noble Truth is one day in eternity, until then enjoy your path.

 

 

Your path is your path. Enjoy the suffering.

 

In Buddhism, we even consider attaining the realm of highly informed bliss heaven realms as a realm of suffering, because it still has the potentiality to re-manifest a hell realm in the future, even after eons of merit burning as a long lived God life. Eons is like trillions of trillions of our years.

 

Without direct insight into dependent origination, liberation from the future possibility of intense psychological and physical suffering is not possible... according to Buddhism.

[Apech]

Suffering is an attachment. In Taoism we practice non-attachment, not denial. We understand that there are ups and downs but sufferage is a state of being a victim. Why victimize yourself? Why give in and tell yourself "Well I must suffer".

 

We have options. We don't need to suffer. Live now my brother then you can eventually see what eternity is. Learn from the past to live in the present so you can see your future!

Your path is your path. Enjoy the suffering.

 

 

With respect, this is a complete misunderstanding of what the 1st Noble Truth is saying. The 'suffering' or dhukka is not about misery and pain (although this might be part of it) it is about conditionality and the temporary nature of phenomena. It is stating a fundamental fact of existence and not a psychological attitude to pleasure and pain. The Buddha's motive in pointing this out was not to convey some kind of miserable outlook - but to explain to people that (as you say) attachment/desire leads to suffering AND this is not necessary. It is not necessary because enlightenment is possible and (in some schools) Buddha-nature is real. The basic Buddhist position is to wish everyone happiness and the causes of happiness/ and enlightenment and the causes of enlightenment. This is actually a cheerful outlook the practice of which makes you feel positive, optimistic and cheerful. This is because although samsara is seen as a cyclical world of suffering - it is illusory, it is based on not being able to see the true nature of things - seeing this, brings liberation (to put it simply).

 

I am not by the way suggesting that Buddhism is superior to Taoism, far from it, both are profound and full of good and helpful things. Both have their particular view (not identical but not really contradictory either). Neither should be disrespected - although it is right to point out errors which might occur in either school of though of course.

[Marblehead]

Suffering is an attachment. In Taoism we practice non-attachment, not denial. We understand that there are ups and downs but sufferage is a state of being a victim. Why victimize yourself? Why give in and tell yourself "Well I must suffer".

 

We have options. We don't need to suffer. Live now my brother then you can eventually see what eternity is. Learn from the past to live in the present so you can see your future!

 

Well, I know you are not talking to me here, Wudang.

 

But there are still an awful lot of people who feel it is their mission in life to suffer, so suffer they do.

 

Yeah, attachment has a lot to do with suffering. And loosing something you thought 'belonged' to you causes a lot of people to suffer as well.

 

Be we need not suffer, even when we are in pian. And that's just the way it is.

 

Happy Tralis!

[wudangspirit]

Thanks for clarifying. This is almost the concept that we use as "See and don't see". We realize that this world is an illusion brought on by post heaven intelligence. But on the other hand we live here so we have to take part in it 150%. By doing that we can realize our true nature through non-attachment and the balance of heaven and earth. Only when we can give up concept all together are we enlightened. And only the individual experiences enlightenment because our Tao is OUR Tao. There are manifestations in action of the enlightened being but they will never say they are enlightened.

 

Thanks again for clarifying your concept.

 

With respect, this is a complete misunderstanding of what the 1st Noble Truth is saying. The 'suffering' or dhukka is not about misery and pain (although this might be part of it) it is about conditionality and the temporary nature of phenomena. It is stating a fundamental fact of existence and not a psychological attitude to pleasure and pain. The Buddha's motive in pointing this out was not to convey some kind of miserable outlook - but to explain to people that (as you say) attachment/desire leads to suffering AND this is not necessary. It is not necessary because enlightenment is possible and (in some schools) Buddha-nature is real. The basic Buddhist position is to wish everyone happiness and the causes of happiness/ and enlightenment and the causes of enlightenment. This is actually a cheerful outlook the practice of which makes you feel positive, optimistic and cheerful. This is because although samsara is seen as a cyclical world of suffering - it is illusory, it is based on not being able to see the true nature of things - seeing this, brings liberation (to put it simply).

 

I am not by the way suggesting that Buddhism is superior to Taoism, far from it, both are profound and full of good and helpful things. Both have their particular view (not identical but not really contradictory either). Neither should be disrespected - although it is right to point out errors which might occur in either school of though of course.