Can lions achieve liberation in a buddhist sence?

[Pero]

Thank you all for your answers they have helped some. I kind of feel like i am beeting a dead horse but i have one more final question on this topic.

 

Is there anything we can do to help the animals acheve liberation?

 

I don't know how it is in other Buddhist traditions, but in Tibetan Buddhism there exists something called Trolwa Trukden (if I didn't mix something up hehe), meaning six liberations, six because of six senses. If you'd give an animal something to eat which was empowered with specific mantras or practices, or if they hear those mantras and so on, it creates a cause of liberation for them. That means that they have connection to the teaching, and in one of their future lives they can achieve enlightenment.

 

At a teaching I was at with Mingyur Rinpoche, a woman asked him if it helps if she directs thoughts to the animal, like for example that this animal would achieve enlightenment, and he said that it can.

[orb]

Thank you all for your answers they have helped some. I kind of feel like i am beeting a dead horse but i have one more final question on this topic.

 

Is there anything we can do to help the animals acheve liberation?

 

Thank you all for your answers they have helped some. I kind of feel like i am beeting a dead horse but i have one more final question on this topic.

 

Is there anything we can do to help the animals acheve liberation?

 

I have a great method that helped a lot of souls so far -

I eat lots of steak and in this way I liberate the poor souls trapped in the cow's body and give it a chance to reincarnate into something better!

(goes well with a good mushroom-onion topping, by the way...)

[Stigweard]

I asked this question to a cow once. It said "MU"

 

Good enough for me.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes!

 

ROFLMAO !!!

 

[de_paradise]

No joke...last night I had a dream that I became a lion. I can't remember the details, though.

 

Weird. This thread made me dream of a lion too. It was a pet lion, but it was playing with several dogs, trapping them like they were mice. Later there was a huge feud, one lion against about 7 housepets.

[Aetherous]

So that's what happened...

[mewtwo]

I have figured out my own belife, I believe animals are somewhat closer to nature than humans. So to be an animal Is one of the best things.

[Vajrahridaya]

I have figured out my own belife, I believe animals are somewhat closer to nature than humans. So to be an animal Is one of the best things.

 

"be-life"? So, animals with their inability to transcend self and nature is considered a good thing?

 

ok...

 

The human being is both negative and positive in the paradox. The ability to transcend leads either to Buddhahood, or Earth raping Demon. Animals are just ignorant of their own causes and conditions so are victims of their instinct.

 

But, I guess you don't believe in Enlightenment, or rebirth. So...

[ralis]

"be-life"? So, animals with their inability to transcend self and nature is considered a good thing?

 

ok...

 

The human being is both negative and positive in the paradox. The ability to transcend leads either to Buddhahood, or Earth raping Demon. Animals are just ignorant of their own causes and conditions so are victims of their instinct.

 

But, I guess you don't believe in Enlightenment, or rebirth. So...

 

Just how do you arrive at this conclusion? From your days as a dinosaur?

 

BTW, how did you know you were a dinosaur? By watching your dinosaur self in a mirror?

 

 

ralis

Edited October 14, 2009 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Just how do you arrive at this conclusion? From your days as a dinosaur?

 

BTW, how did you know you were a dinosaur? By watching your dinosaur self in a mirror?

ralis

 

Ha! I press reply and your post shows up. Anyway... from your response, one can only conclude that the transmission from ChNNR did not fully take root yet, as Rigpa includes direct vision of the 6 realms and 31 planes.

 

Oh well.. keep trying. You'll get there.

 

p.s. which is why ChNNR's teachings include "Purification of the 6 lokas (realms)"

Edited October 14, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[mewtwo]

You dont need to transcend nature you must become one with nature. That is my belief. In a future lifetime i want to become an animal specifically a lion. Does anyone know how one could achieve this?

 

Thanks

[Vajrahridaya]

You dont need to transcend nature you must become one with nature. That is my belief. In a future lifetime i want to become an animal specifically a lion. Does anyone know how one could achieve this?

 

Thanks

 

Actually, there are two natures. There is the nature of all things, and then there is the nature of deluded mind streams. The nature of all things is inherent emptiness, this transcends the nature of deluded mind streams who exist with craving, a feeling of lack, fear... etc. To become a lion would fall under the category of deluded mind streams.

 

But, to become a lion, you'd probably just maybe eat a lion, focus intently on being a lion, act like a lion. But, that's no guarantee as the causes for your future rebirth might be stronger than your current desires.

[Vajrahridaya]

In Taoism, you want to realize the Tao of all things. A lion cannot do that, as they are too constrained by the limits of their own animalness and they cannot adapt or think past this. They just want to eat, feed their pack, do lion things in their natural surroundings, which they cannot venture past. A human can do all sorts of things as a humans capacity and nature is to see through things and utilize everything for the sake of oneself or everyone, and they are not bound by any one type of nature, that is human nature. We as humans are not even bound by ideas of self or human, when you get into spirituality, but we can utilize different ideas of self. It is human nature to transcend nature, so it's very natural actually.

 

Lion nature is quite limited, but human nature is not nearly as limited. The human capacity for nature is the natural ability to know the nature of everything. The lion... cannot even fully question it's own nature as it's too busy trying to survive. In a zoo... it's too busy being lazy.

 

But suit yourself...

[mewtwo]

I want to make a pledge to everyone here in my next life I will become a lion, If my theory is true I will have achieved what i want to achieve if my theory is wrong and lions or animals cant achieve liberation, enlightenment, nirvana or what ever you want to call it I will help them achieve it.

[Vajrahridaya]

I want to make a pledge to everyone here in my next life I will become a lion, If my theory is true I will have achieved what i want to achieve if my theory is wrong and lions or animals cant achieve liberation, enlightenment, nirvana or what ever you want to call it I will help them achieve it.

 

All the best!

 

p.s. Overall it seems that you have good intentions... so might as well.

[Capital]

I asked this question to a cow once. It said "MU"

 

Good enough for me.

 

 

The cow says "Mu"

 

The dog says "bark."

 

The pig squeals and oinks.

 

The human can say all of these things, if it wants.

 

Then again, so could the parrot.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Then again, so could the parrot.

 

Yes, but without understanding the meaning.

[Capital]

Do lions suffer, Vajrahridaya? From a Buddhist point of view, or at least your specific Buddhist point of view, can an animal suffer?

[Vajrahridaya]

Do lions suffer, Vajrahridaya? From a Buddhist point of view, or at least your specific Buddhist point of view, can an animal suffer?

 

Of course. They are worthy of compassion and have Buddha nature.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Capital]

So the lion deserves compassion, has "Buddha Nature" (I only put this in quotes because I have not even a simplistic understanding of what it means), and suffers, but does not 'understand' like a human, so it cannot reach liberation?

 

What separates the man from the animal, and allows us to forget our original nature as animals? What is the Buddhist opinion on the evolution of creatures? What controls the movements of souls from one class of being to the next, and how did enlightenment occur before our species had the ability to think with our monkey minds?

 

Now, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought it was cool. Isn't it interesting how at times creatures were so much larger than they are in today's time? Giant Ground Sloth.

 

Today's sloths don't even compare, but they are apparently from a similar Order. Someone please explain how that is even possible!

[ralis]

Ha! I press reply and your post shows up. Anyway... from your response, one can only conclude that the transmission from ChNNR did not fully take root yet, as Rigpa includes direct vision of the 6 realms and 31 planes.

 

Oh well.. keep trying. You'll get there.

 

p.s. which is why ChNNR's teachings include "Purification of the 6 lokas (realms)"

 

Now you have joined the right wing radical fundamentalist crowd. Your condemnation of me is no different than the fundamentalist types that condemn people to hell everyday! Your worn out rhetoric of Buddhist superiority smacks of Calvinist guilt ridden propaganda. Your use of the term karma is nothing more than a substitute for the doctrine of original sin as taught by Catholicism.

 

Religion is and will always be a means of keeping humanity in superstition, guilt and fear. Religion is anti evolution.

 

http://www.listenlittleman.com/

 

 

 

 

ralis

Edited October 15, 2009 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

So the lion deserves compassion, has "Buddha Nature" (I only put this in quotes because I have not even a simplistic understanding of what it means), and suffers, but does not 'understand' like a human, so it cannot reach liberation?

 

What separates the man from the animal, and allows us to forget our original nature as animals? What is the Buddhist opinion on the evolution of creatures? What controls the movements of souls from one class of being to the next, and how did enlightenment occur before our species had the ability to think with our monkey minds?

 

Now, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought it was cool. Isn't it interesting how at times creatures were so much larger than they are in today's time? Giant Ground Sloth.

 

Today's sloths don't even compare, but they are apparently from a similar Order. Someone please explain how that is even possible!

 

Cravings and instinct, the innate desire for survival and protection of the family are all causes of this forgetfulness. The Buddhist paradigm teaches that we are endless mind streams just reaping the fruit of karma rebirth after rebirth. If you are not liberated now, that means that you never have been liberated since beginningless time as a mind stream. You have gone through many births propelled by karma. A lion does have some measure of consciousness and is able to do minute things and make minute level conscious choices that are not completely dictated by craving, it depends on the situation... There are many factors governing an individual that are unique as all beings are unique. When were we able to start thinking about things with a greater sense of depth? I suppose when we evolved to that capacity. Though there are other worlds that many of us might have come from and other dimensions, other universes, etc. Up and down, up and down through varying capacities reflective of our actions and intentions.

 

Dzogchen teaches that we actually partake in a special ceremony which offers blessings to the animals and different classes of beings, so that they may receive some of our energy and intentions in a way that helps them. It's called a Ganapuja and the details of this should be learned directly from a qualified teacher. But, by mingling out mind stream with their karmic baggage, we actually help them on their inner evolution through a kind of spiritual influencing.

 

I understand that beings were huge before the ice age. I've even seen bones of giant humans. Someone told me why some time ago, but I don't remember right now. Google it?

 

Buddha nature just means dependent origination and emptiness in reference to conscious beings.

 

Now you have joined the right wing radical fundamentalist crowd. Your condemnation of me is no different than the fundamentalist types that condemn people to hell everyday! Your worn out rhetoric of Buddhist superiority smacks of Calvinist guilt ridden propaganda. Your use of the term karma is nothing more than a substitute for the doctrine of original sin as taught by Catholicism.

 

Religion is and will always be a means of keeping humanity in superstition, guilt and fear. Religion is anti evolution.

 

http://www.listenlittleman.com/

ralis

 

I guess your not a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

 

I am thankful that I don't share your embittered opinion.

 

I never condemned you, as only you can do that for yourself, that's your negative interpretation of what I've said... as I said in a pm... keep trying with the ChNNR transmissions and you'll get over your limitations.

 

But obviously your not that interested in his transmissions, nor his teachings. You just said you were a student of his for... what reason? I have no idea, it's obviously not the truth.

 

He has said that those that get something from his transmissions have the karma to do so.

 

By the way... you've condemned me since the very beginning as some religious fundamentalist. You've been bitter and hateful towards me since the first time you posted something to me.

 

Ralis, I'd take a long look in the proverbial mirror if I were you, but I'm not you. Oh yeah... you don't believe in proverbs.

 

Your vision of religion is just as fundamentally extreme as you claim me to be.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

By the way, "Karma" means that you're in control of your destiny, not a grand deity in the sky. Rather, you reap what you sow and your intentions and actions bare fruit. The realization of karma brings much freedom.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

 

 

 

 

I guess your not a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

 

 

 

 

But obviously your not that interested in his transmissions, nor his teachings. You just said you were a student of his for... what reason? I have no idea, it's obviously not the truth.

 

He has said that those that get something from his transmissions have the karma to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I met Norbu 22 years ago and have sat in many retreats. Never once, has he codified rules and behavior for his students to follow. I guess I am not what you expect and don't fit your idea of a good little Buddhist. I think for myself and question everything, including your rigid beliefs. I also question anyone who claims to be a teacher, Buddha or whatever.

 

BTW, whatever spiritual experiences I have had, are only shared with a few friends. I don't put my experiences all over the internet for all to view. Your assumptions in the above quote are baseless.

 

 

ralis

 

 

 

 

By the way, "Karma" means that you're in control of your destiny, not a grand deity in the sky. Rather, you reap what you sow and your intentions and actions bare fruit. The realization of karma brings much freedom.

 

 

Are you implying that you have control of your destiny?

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I met Norbu 22 years ago and have sat in many retreats. Never once, has he codified rules and behavior for his students to follow. I guess I am not what you expect and don't fit your idea of a good little Buddhist. I think for myself and question everything, including your rigid beliefs. I also question anyone who claims to be a teacher, Buddha or whatever.

 

BTW, whatever spiritual experiences I have had, are only shared with a few friends. I don't put my experiences all over the internet for all to view. Your assumptions in the above quote are baseless.

ralis

 

 

Are you implying that you have control of your destiny?

 

ralis

 

Only in a beyond this life sense do I have control over my destiny. It doesn't seem that you have read precious vase.

 

But... whatever floats your boat and I've never, ever claimed to be a Buddha.

 

Have a nice ride!

 

p.s. Rinpoche's public talks are more surface generally. Now, I've seen many, many people who go to public talks but never really get past the surface. They use Dzogchen as an excuse to do whatever they please. I'm not saying that you do. But, if you haven't gotten into the SMS teachings?

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

it's a bit silly to consider yourself a student of Dzogchen and not even understand the basic Buddhist teachings of karma. karma is far from 'original sin', it's merely the current conditions created by previous causes. there's ultimately nobody to blame for these actions since its just repeated patterns with no do-er.

 

smugness is an interesting pattern, it's like this little illusory self actually thinks he knows something a pattern based on a pattern, conditioning based on conditioning. layer after layer after layer. like an onion.

 

 

I met Norbu 22 years ago and have sat in many retreats. Never once, has he codified rules and behavior for his students to follow. I guess I am not what you expect and don't fit your idea of a good little Buddhist. I think for myself and question everything, including your rigid beliefs. I also question anyone who claims to be a teacher, Buddha or whatever.

 

BTW, whatever spiritual experiences I have had, are only shared with a few friends. I don't put my experiences all over the internet for all to view. Your assumptions in the above quote are baseless.

ralis

 

ralis

 

 

I..I....I..............I...................I.....I..II..IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

 

where?