Can lions achieve liberation in a buddhist sence?

[hagar]

Where is buddha nature?

 

To quote Ekhart Tolle:

"I have had many zen masters. Most of them cats"

 

h

 

But I'm still pondering how I could help all the bees I killed.

Edited October 16, 2009 by hagar

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

Just stopped in to see if the lion had gone to heaven yet. I guess not. Oh well.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

 

p.s. Rinpoche's public talks are more surface generally. Now, I've seen many, many people who go to public talks but never really get past the surface. They use Dzogchen as an excuse to do whatever they please. I'm not saying that you do. But, if you haven't gotten into the SMS teachings?

 

Exactly what are you attempting to say?

 

BTW, Dzogchen goes beyond any ism or belief system!!!

 

 

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Where is buddha nature?

 

To quote Ekhart Tolle:

"I have had many zen masters. Most of them cats"

 

h

 

But I'm still pondering how I could help all the bees I killed.

 

That's pretty funny. Most likely the cats were feeding off Eckhart's peace though. Since he found some. The cat's are generally not that conscious of what's going on inside because their outer senses are over developed and they live in a constant state of external distraction and reaction to external stimuli. Generally, though I've heard of great beings teaching animals samatha and such things. I've read that the 16th karmapa had birds that would go into meditation and when died, died standing straight up and without falling off the perch? So... there are always exceptions.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[hagar]

That's pretty funny. Most likely the cats were feeding off Eckhart's peace though. Since he found some. The cat's are generally not that conscious of what's going on inside because their outer senses are over developed and they live in a constant state of external distraction and reaction to external stimuli. Generally, though I've heard of great beings teaching animals samatha and such things. I've read that the 16th karmapa had birds that would go into meditation and when died, died standing straight up and without falling off the perch? So... there are always exceptions.

 

I'll not argue that.

 

What I have experienced being around animals is that they are completely tuned in. Cats are great teachers in that sense. They are completely aware, completely self contained. If they are conscious, I have no idea.

 

In general, they have a much greater perception of energy, and its application than say, me.

 

 

h

[Vajrahridaya]

Exactly what are you attempting to say?

 

BTW, Dzogchen goes beyond any ism or belief system!!!

ralis

 

In realization of course it does. But not in process of explanation, or display of functioning after liberation... Rigpa is still dependently originated and is the fruit of seeing dependent origination and is no different from the Buddhas teachings in essence. You realize the 3 kayas, you see the infinite blue sphere/tigle/bindu spontaneously, which is a symbol of the infinite that manifests for those that see directly infinite dimension and perspective.

 

Have you read the book by Rinpoche, "Dzogchen Teachings"? The one with the flag that looks like an optical illusion...

 

Like I said... if you experience Rigpa, you have a vision of the 6 realms and the 31 planes, not quite as limited as it's said as well... one might even say, infinite realms, but that's not really needed to say as the 6 realms and 31 planes covers all the form to formless paradigms and infinite variations of these.

 

Have you read "The Supreme Source"?

 

It's not that Rinpoche only hits the surface in his talks, but most people don't penetrate it seems or go deaf when he's talking about some of the subtler points, like the tigle and the realms, his talking to alien beings in lucid dream states. Also... have you read the "Precious Vase"? You want me to answer questions but you don't have to I suppose.

 

I'll not argue that.

 

What I have experienced being around animals is that they are completely tuned in. Cats are great teachers in that sense. They are completely aware, completely self contained. If they are conscious, I have no idea.

 

In general, they have a much greater perception of energy, and its application than say, me.

h

 

They don't have a lucid understanding, they are just perceiving. They are not tuned in, they are tuned out, as in overly external, and their cat tail balances them as an extension of their spine to deal with the constant barrage of denser energy perceptions... they are constantly walking smooth, like "cats" on the streets dodging cops, talkin' smooth, who always know what's going on behind them even while talkin' to you in slick ways. Seeing your energy pulse, and knowing if your scared. This is not enlightenment.

 

Sure you can learn from them, but don't deceive yourself thinking it's better to be a cat, or a dude on the streets with animal senses for that matter.

 

p.s. No matter how peaceful Eckart's cats may have seemed sitting there, I bet if you threw a mouse in front of any of them, they couldn't help but follow instinct. Then again... who knows?? There are always exceptions. I know dogs can be conditioned to be more internally disciplined. Cats generally run wild though when faced with something to run from or run after. Don't get me wrong, I am a cat person and have owned a number of cats, and dogs in my life.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[rex]

Rigpa is still dependently originated and is the fruit of seeing dependent origination

 

Like I said... if you experience Rigpa, you have a vision of the 6 realms and the 31 planes,

 

Hmmm ... Vaj all this seems to be a very partial overlay. Why drag dependent origination into this? Isn't the experience of Rigpa a function of kadak and lhundrup which are beyond cause and effect, and by extension, dependent origination?

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[thelerner]

In Taoism, you want to realize the Tao of all things. A lion cannot do that, as they are too constrained by the limits of their own animalness and they cannot adapt or think past this. They just want to eat, feed their pack, do lion things in their natural surroundings, which they cannot venture past.

 

Lion nature is quite limited, but human nature is not nearly as limited. The lion... cannot even fully question it's own nature as it's too busy trying to survive. In a zoo... it's too busy being lazy.

 

I don't think our questioning (at least as done on this post) shows greater knowledge of the Tao then a Lion's yawn.

I don't think the Master questions, IMO they're closer to the Lion then we are to them.

 

I think wild animals are better at this spiritual stuff then most of us. For example, look at us arguing over this VERY IMPORTANT POINT. They've evolved past this bickering.

 

In my observation animals (and young kids) are in a spiritual place more often then we are. After eating, checking for danger, they're just aware, often perfectl. If we could hit the state of consciousness that animals are in most of the time, I think we'd be better for it.

 

Maybe the Lion is full of its nature, and we are educated away from of ours?

 

Michael

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't think our questioning (at least as done on this post) shows greater knowledge of the Tao then a Lion's yawn.

I don't think the Master questions, IMO they're closer to the Lion then we are to them.

 

I think wild animals are better at this spiritual stuff then most of us. For example, look at us arguing over this VERY IMPORTANT POINT. They've evolved past this bickering.

 

In my observation animals (and young kids) are in a spiritual place more often then we are. After eating, checking for danger, they're just aware, often perfectl. If we could hit the state of consciousness that animals are in most of the time, I think we'd be better for it.

 

Maybe the Lion is full of its nature, and we are educated away from of ours?

 

Michael

 

Wishful thinking. Clap your hands loudly, or shoot a gun in the air and see what happens. A master does not react out of fear. A baby will start crying immediately and an animal will run... don't mistake a lions food coma from gorging itself as a state of meditation. They only have glimpses of purity due to the lack of the manifestation of their karmic potential for conditioning. As in, their unconscious has not yet been pulled into their conscious through the product of external stimuli, the future of their karmic manifestation has not yet manifested. A Master is as pure as a child but fully aware of it, so doesn't loose it and doesn't make anymore karmic manifestations.

 

Animals are not evolved enough to even start arguing about the finer points, much less evolved to the point of transcending them.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[hagar]

Wishful thinking. Clap your hands loudly, or shoot a gun in the air and see what happens. A master does not react out of fear. A baby will start crying immediately and an animal will run... don't mistake a lions food coma from gorging itself as a state of meditation. They only have glimpses of purity due to the lack of the manifestation of their karmic potential for conditioning. As in, their unconscious has not yet been pulled into their conscious through the product of external stimuli, the future of their karmic manifestation has not yet manifested. A Master is as pure as a child but fully aware of it, so doesn't loose it and doesn't make anymore karmic manifestations.

 

Animals are not evolved enough to even start arguing about the finer points, much less evolved to the point of transcending them.

 

How do we know?

 

Since this we're down the slippery slope of discussion, lets make an inquiry of it.

 

A baby's scream is completely empty because it has no self. So what is screaming?

 

The whole thing about "karma" relates to a self. Or to put it in another way. How can emptiness have karma?

 

What is the differene between the master and the child, or the idiot for that matter? Is awareness in some way contained within the Master and not in the child? What is aware, that is not there in the baby?

 

h

[JustARandomPanda]

Can someone please explain the following?

• what is a tigle?
  
• what is a bindo?
  
• what is a heart drop?
  

[Vajrahridaya]

Can someone please explain the following?

• what is a tigle?
  
• what is a bindo?
  
• what is a heart drop?
  

 

Tigle is a sphere, sometimes translated as drops...

 

The Dzogchen Tigle of primordial purity is...

 

In a state of rigpa it may appear as merely a blue sphere radiating the different colored lights and one see's everything through it. Like a spontaneous download of the infinite. Hard to explain of course.

 

It goes into more detail than this with the different drops in the system, the red and white. But... the Dzogchen Tigle is considered indestructible.

 

Bindu is the sanskrit word for Tigle. Heart drop... well sometimes this is the heart drop. I saw it in the heart, deep in the center, but I've also seen it everywhere and in the 3rd eye area too.

 

Could be because I'm not a Buddha as of yet though.

 

You might like to buy the book, "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" Serene!

 

 

How do we know?

 

Since this we're down the slippery slope of discussion, lets make an inquiry of it.

 

A baby's scream is completely empty because it has no self. So what is screaming?

 

The whole thing about "karma" relates to a self. Or to put it in another way. How can emptiness have karma?

 

 

Emptiness is not a thing... it's a quality of karma. The quality of karma that shows that it does not inherently exist, only relatively.

 

How do we know? The baby is still in development of it's karmic properties to become an adult, it hasn't transcended becoming, thus is not fully liberated. A baby merely lacks the karmic manifestations, but not the potential. A Master lacks the potential.

 

What is the differene between the master and the child, or the idiot for that matter? Is awareness in some way contained within the Master and not in the child? What is aware, that is not there in the baby?

 

h

 

Read above. Both have consciousness, but the Master is consciously aware.

[rex]

Kadak or primordial purity is dependent origination. Seeing dependent origination is lundhrub. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche repeats over and over again that one should understand emptiness from the perspective of Madhyamaka Prasangika. ...

 

So, there must be perspective and understanding which comes via Buddhist studies. Not just... Oh, "I'm beyond Cause and Effect Now". Rather like Padmasambhava said

 

"My realization is higher than the sky,

But my observance of karma is finer than grains of flour."

 

-- Padmasambhava

 

 

Really informative thanks but your posts always trouble me because I can't understand them and they bear little relation to the teachings I've received. But thats just me so please don't see this as me giving you a hard time.

 

I think I am confused by your use of the term dependent origination. It is clearly immensly helpful to you but I find it difficult to fathom how a simple self-evident observation of phenomena can be extrapolated to be so all-encompassing, given the status of an imperative prerequisite and used as a reductionist ontological tool in all situations at all times.

 

I understand the Garland of Views instructs on philosophical view but I don't recall reading or hearing any teachings that state the experience Rigpa is the fruit of seeing dependent origination. Arguably if one goes by Garbab Dorje's First Statement one doesn't need an intellectual understanding of Buddhist philosophy to experience Rigpa. But perhaps we share different senses of the term 'dependent origination'? "Kadak or primordial purity is dependent origination. Seeing dependent origination is lundhrub" seems like a fine piece of reductionist rhetoric. Surely these terms are not synonyms for dependent origination?

 

Of course pointing out that Rigpa is beyond cause and effect is not the same as saying that one can act with impunity and ignore the relative.

 

All the best.

[booktreasure]

Really informative thanks but your posts always trouble me because I can't understand them and they bear little relation to the teachings I've received. But thats just me so please don't see this as me giving you a hard time.

 

I think I am confused by your use of the term dependent origination. It is clearly immensly helpful to you but I find it difficult to fathom how a simple self-evident observation of phenomena can be extrapolated to be so all-encompassing, given the status of an imperative prerequisite and used as a reductionist ontological tool in all situations at all times.

 

I understand the Garland of Views instructs on philosophical view but I don't recall reading or hearing any teachings that state the experience Rigpa is the fruit of seeing dependent origination. Arguably if one goes by Garbab Dorje's First Statement one doesn't need an intellectual understanding of Buddhist philosophy to experience Rigpa. But perhaps we share different senses of the term 'dependent origination'? "Kadak or primordial purity is dependent origination. Seeing dependent origination is lundhrub" seems like a fine piece of reductionist rhetoric. Surely these terms are not synonyms for dependent origination?

 

Of course pointing out that Rigpa is beyond cause and effect is not the same as saying that one can act with impunity and ignore the relative.

 

All the best.

 

Rick, beautifully put. I don't want to comment on Vajra's repulsive dhamma preaching here; one should not get the impression that his approach or blabber seen here is reflective of Namkhai Norbu's teaching. He is not my root master but nevertheless I have studied with him for many years. Those without skill should listen and learn and not talk

 

To understand and enter the primordial state one does need intellectual, cultural, or historic knowledge. It is beyond intellect by its very nature. Yet when people encounter a teaching they have not heard before, one of the first things they may want to know is where this teaching arose, where it came from, who taught it and so on. This is understandable but Dzogchen itself cannot be said to belong to the culture of any country. - The Crystal and the Way of Light

Edited October 16, 2009 by booktreasure

[Sunya]

Rick, beautifully put. I don't want to comment on Vajra's repulsive dhamma preaching here; one should not get the impression that his approach or blabber seen here is reflective of Namkhai Norbu's teaching. He is not my root master but nevertheless I have studied with him for many years. Those without skill should listen and learn and not talk

 

does studying with a teacher for years give you the necessary credentials to understand them and their tradition? isn't it possible that even studying with a teacher for years could leave you utterly baseless? isn't it possible that you can carry your conditioning and assumptions with you and project that onto a tradition thus leaving you with no real understanding of it?

 

Of course to enter the primordial state you do not need any knowledge, since the state is pointed out to you. Rigpa is completely beyond concepts. This is a fact. but to integrate that state and have proper interpretation you need understanding of emptiness. Rinpoche says this himself in Crystal Way. I don't remember where but he says that its assumed in Dzogchen before you even begin that you have understanding of dependent origination, that all phenomena lack inherent true existence.

 

It is said that Dzogchen is beyond culture and religion, this is true. Dzogchen is the culmination of the spiritual path and is not solely the effect of any 'ism', since in other world systems there are Dzogchen masters and they have other paths to reach this culmination, and these paths are of different cultures. But in this world system, on Earth, Rinpoche has made it clear that Dzogchen is achieved through Buddhist method only.

 

It is also sort of a political thing to say that, because of Bon, which only recently has been considered a school of Tibetan Buddhism. Bon has Dzogchen but isn't 'Buddhist' per say, but the method and philosophy of Bon was taken from Buddhism and its basically identical.

 

Dzogchen literally is the Great Perfection, which is the Natural State, or the condition of all phenomena, and is not separate from Shunyata or Emptiness. It is a different word for the same. Rigpa is primordial purity (emptiness) and spontaneous presence (luminosity), emptiness and luminosity are not separate, actually.

Edited October 16, 2009 by mikaelz

[Sunya]

I find it difficult to fathom how a simple self-evident observation of phenomena can be extrapolated to be so all-encompassing, given the status of an imperative prerequisite and used as a reductionist ontological tool in all situations at all times.

 

well that is Buddhism, from the Pali Suttas to the Mahayana Tantras to Dzogchen, all are skillful means in realizing that all-encompassing condition. There is nothing separate from phenomena or behind it, infact phenomena (form) is emptiness. So of course the condition of phenomena is all encompassing; it's not reductionist because the relative is still important, hence the emphasis on compassion. What is the rainbow body? it's having infinite skill and means to help all beings, in any form, so of course the relative is important. but the realization of the all encompassing condition has to be realized.

[booktreasure]

does studying with a teacher for years give you the necessary credentials to understand them and their tradition? isn't it possible that even studying with a teacher for years could leave you utterly baseless? isn't it possible that you can carry your conditioning and assumptions with you and project that onto a tradition thus leaving you with no real understanding of it?

 

 

 

 

I wish you considered applying the same to yourself and Vajra to whose rescue you jump faster ignoring your own back that is on fire. Truly compassionate like a Bodhisattva except that this compassion does not extend beyond your idol and know-all figure

Edited October 16, 2009 by booktreasure

[Sunya]

I wish you considered applying the same to yourself and Vajra to whose rescue you jump faster ignoring your own back that is on fire. Truly compassionate like a Bodhisattva except that this compassion does not extend beyond your idol and know-all figure

 

I understand that its easier to attack than to have a good meaningful discussion. I don't blame you since emotions sure are tough to get beyond. but really, I urge you to wake up from this delusion that anger and pride are really getting you anywhere...

 

oh btw, my idol is Namkhai Norbu. I also really like a couple of other figures. none of whom post here

 

Vajra is very clear and of course I agree with his understanding, as it is far above mine. calling his words 'repulsive dhamma preaching' is completely baseless especially when you have no clue what you're talking about. You gotta learn to be more skillful.

Edited October 16, 2009 by mikaelz

[booktreasure]

I understand that its easier to attack than to have a good meaningful discussion. I don't blame you since emotions sure are tough to get beyond. but really, I urge you to wake up from this delusion that anger and pride are really getting you anywhere...

 

Trying to sound wise does not make one wise. Don't underestimate the intelligence of others

 

It is also sort of a political thing to say that, because of Bon, which only recently has been considered a school of Tibetan Buddhism. Bon has Dzogchen but isn't 'Buddhist' per say, but the method and philosophy of Bon was taken from Buddhism and its basically identical.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archi...n_buddhism.html

 

Well at least you're honest in stating that YOU find Vajra clear. Obviously no one else does as has been stated here many times. But you are not a standard you want others to emulate or compare with are you? You talking of anger and pride and advising me to "wake up" from it makes this all nothing more than a cheezy evangelical show on late night television. It would do you much more good to focus on Namkhai Norbu than spend your days and nights posting on this forum and defending every fart of Vajra. Smell something better for a change dude

Edited October 16, 2009 by booktreasure

[Vajrahridaya]

Really informative thanks but your posts always trouble me because I can't understand them and they bear little relation to the teachings I've received. But thats just me so please don't see this as me giving you a hard time.

 

Yes, mostly it seems that only those who have the same information in their heads can relate to my postings with any sense of real clarity.

 

 

I think I am confused by your use of the term dependent origination. It is clearly immensly helpful to you but I find it difficult to fathom how a simple self-evident observation of phenomena can be extrapolated to be so all-encompassing, given the status of an imperative prerequisite and used as a reductionist ontological tool in all situations at all times.

 

The Buddha didn't find that hard, neither did Nargarjuna. But... yes you might like to read some Prasangika. That would help you immensely!

 

I understand the Garland of Views instructs on philosophical view but I don't recall reading or hearing any teachings that state the experience Rigpa is the fruit of seeing dependent origination.

 

Yes, I think it might just be a question of what you've studied. The things I say are an assimilation of all that I've studied and experienced directly. Of course I cannot help that.

 

Arguably if one goes by Garbab Dorje's First Statement one doesn't need an intellectual understanding of Buddhist philosophy to experience Rigpa. But perhaps we share different senses of the term 'dependent origination'? "Kadak or primordial purity is dependent origination. Seeing dependent origination is lundhrub" seems like a fine piece of reductionist rhetoric. Surely these terms are not synonyms for dependent origination?

 

To me they are. The Buddha said to see dependent origination is to see the dharma and to see the dharma is to see him.

 

So... it really is the right view. Otherwise ones view of Dzogchen is no different from Advaita Vedanta.

 

Of course pointing out that Rigpa is beyond cause and effect is not the same as saying that one can act with impunity and ignore the relative.

 

All the best.

 

Well good! Rigpa is not a thing though, it's a realization. It's not something that shines from it's own side. Rigpa must also be emptied through a process of emptying the base. These are Dzogchen teachings.

 

What is Rigpa to you?

[Sunya]

Trying to sound wise does not make one wise. Don't underestimate the intelligence of others

 

 

i'm not trying to sound wise, its apparently evident that your ego is hanging out of your pocket. Did you come here to prove something?

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archi...n_buddhism.html

 

yes thank you for sharing that, Bon doesn't have a valid history but it does have methods and these methods are practically identical to Buddhism. Namkhai Norbu wrote a book on Bon actually.

 

Well at least you're honest in stating that YOU find Vajra clear. Obviously no one else does as has been stated here many times. But you are not a standard you want others to emulate or compare with are you? You talking of anger and pride and advising me to "wake up" from it makes this all nothing more than a cheezy evangelical show on late night television. It would do you much more good to focus on Namkhai Norbu than spend your days and nights posting on this forum and defending every fart of Vajra. Smell something better for a change dude

 

oh the hurdles that the ego will jump through just to validate itself

 

thanks for the laughs 'booktreasure', maybe your pride comes from reading too many books and thinking that they actually contain treasure? I do hope you realize knowledge is not wisdom

Edited October 16, 2009 by mikaelz

[booktreasure]

 

thanks for the laughs 'booktreasure'

 

 

Glad to have helped. I see Vajra has climbed the hill, time for me to jump off the brokeback mountain and let you two cowboyz have some fun with the emptiness. Have a fun weekend ahead

[Vajrahridaya]

I wish you considered applying the same to yourself and Vajra to whose rescue you jump faster ignoring your own back that is on fire. Truly compassionate like a Bodhisattva except that this compassion does not extend beyond your idol and know-all figure

 

Actually Mizheals has undergone more training through other avenues other my own. You would benefit more from seeing him as his own person as he has learned way more on his own and through other people than through me. Sometimes he surprises me with information that I've never considered. So, sometimes he indeed is also my teacher.

 

p.s. We just have a tendency to agree on most points.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya