A serious question about Taoism and the role of motivation.

[nac]

I've been giving this a little thought. Regarding the Lama: Someone wrote she was phony. Who knows? But there is a kind of ordinary quality to her answer. There is a sense of moral absolutism about it, and she has a typical religionist's inclusivist perspective--"all religions are valid, but mine is better than the others." It is a pretty standard point of view for anyone who has as much invested in a religion as the Lama apparently does. She subordinated Taoist values, and by extension all others, to her absolute value of being motivated for the sake and betterment of all sentient beings. Her attitude is understandable; rare is the Lama who would say, "I don't know if any of this is true or not, and I really don't care. I'm a Buddhist because it conforms to the eccentricities of my tastes. That's all."

Either that, or it may have been her honest, sophistry-free opinion in accord with her understanding. Who knows?

Edited October 1, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

Marblehead:

Thanks for your clarification on steve f's post. I see that it is the state of Manifest where distinctions arise, but not the state of Mystery. If I follow you correctly, it seems that the state of Mystery is the spiritual realm (spiritual essence). This is thought-provoking and helps me to understand steve f's point of view. However, I am wondering how the state of Mystery relates to the true nature that Stigweard had referenced (in the second quoted section). This opens up a new question that I have: in which of these two realms (Manifest or Mystery) should we suppose that the true nature lies? If it is in the Manifest, then it is individualistic, personal, and probably different for everyone. If it is in the Mystery, then by definition it would seem that it would have to similar or even the exact same for everyone. I would hazard a guess (and please correct me if you think I am off course here) that if there is no distinction between the self and others, then the true nature of the self would reside within the Manifest. I would like to know if this seems correct to you or not. Thanks again for your clarification.

 

Hi Birch Tree,

 

Okay. I'm not going to consider what Stig said so that I can respond to your question without bias.

 

Our 'true nature' lies in both the Manifest and the Mystery. The one is just as 'real' as the other. Yes, they are of different form but just as real none-the-less. Many Taoists speak of the idea of achieving a balance between the Mystery and the Manifest. Personally, I don't like to use the term balance as it suggests a static point. There is no such thing as a static point - there is no such thing as perfect balance because all is constant change.

 

I use the word 'harmony' instead. A hormonious interplay between the Manifest and the Mystery. Sometimes I am immersed in the manifest - othertimes in the Mystery, but normally at some harmonious position between the two. Sure, every now and then a non-harmonious voice gets played - this is when there needs be a conscious effort to reclaim the harmony whether the 'noise' came from the Manifest or the Mystery.

 

So, a direct answer to your question, "In which of these two realms does our true nature lie?" Both. If you stay in the Mystery you have gone to never-never land; if you stay in the Manifest you have lost the Way (Tao). Nice thing is though is that you can always return to a harmonious state because even though we might loose the Way Tao never looses us.

 

Happy Trails!

[Birch Tree]

My friends,

 

Thank you sincerely for all of your thoughts on this thread so far.

 

William Douglas Horden:

 

Our discussion certainly has been no hinderance, indeed it has been very illuminating. When I was reading your post on nature and how one merges with space when one allows oneself to fall into the bounty and awe of nature, I couldn't help but think about how I feel when I am out in my old rowboat on the lake. The space, the breeze, the birds and the sounds. It is astheticly pleasing to be sure, but you are right--there is something deep and spiritual that one finds in nature. I must agree with you wholeheartedly on this.

 

Also, I see your point about language not being able to express what we are *not* talking about after the light is turned around. Thank you for elaborating on this and for kindly answering my question.

 

 

Vajrahridaya:

 

Thank you for sharing this "Rigpa Glimpse" with me. You are right--it is deep and profound if one allows it to become so--and it is very relevant to my original thread question. Thank you for shring this.

 

 

Marblehead:

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your answer correctly exposed the limitation of my either/or line of thinking when I asked this question to you. Indeed, I agree that it make sense that the true nature of the self lies both within the Manifest and the Mysterious. Thank you for clarifying this for me.

 

 

Everyone:

 

My friends, you have given me much to think about by sharing your precious treasures of the heart and mind with me. I am honored and humbled that you have taken the time and spent the effort to help a poor wanderer like me. I hope you know that I appreciate all of your contributions very much. At this point, I would be happy to consider my original question in this thread answered--indeed it has been answered in several different ways. I feel that I should take some time to reflect on the variety of responses that all of you have shared with me--I hope you will not hold such a selfish request against me. Please accept my heartfelt thanks for all of your thoughts and contributions--these discussions have helped me personally a great deal and I hope you have found them to be thought-provoking and enjoyable as well. I look forward to seeing you all on these boards in the future, and thanks again.

 

Warmest regards,

Birch Tree

[William Douglas Horden]

[Marblehead]

[Stigweard]

Stigweard:

 

So, the question then becomes how does one realize their true nature in the absence of a teacher? As I wrote earlier, I myself have avoided seeking out a teacher because I consider my path to be my own. Maybe that is a bit of arrogance on my part, as I clearly have much to learn from others (this post is certainly proof of that). However, without a teacher, is it possible for one to discern their true nature?

Yes of course it is possible to "discern one's true nature" without a teacher. Remember all paths have their challenges, thus having a teacher can be just as much a potential obstacle as not having a teacher.

 

The key teaching here from the Daodejing is:

 

Humankind conforms to Earth.

Earth conforms to the sky.

The sky conforms to the Subtle Origin.

The Subtle Origin conforms to its own nature.

 

Thus the Taoist counsel is to model ourselves on nature, in essence make nature your teacher. Ultimately our true teacher is the subtle responsiveness of our own integral nature, our De.

If I am reading your second post correctly, practices like Taijiquan and the classic texts like the Tao Te Ching are mirrors that help us discern "the core" by examining the 10,000 things. I also have had to learn virtually everything about Taoism from books (I am wondering if William Douglas Horden had to do this as well). Yet this has not been so terrible. I am beginning to think that one may be able to catch glimpses of one's true nature in the depths of meditation. For me personally, this is always when I have felt the closest to the Tao, and also when I have felt like I've learned the most about myself.

Meditation can be useful to dissolve the disparities of one's own mind and thus yes will bring ones awareness into integral harmony. However, we do not need a special event or activity to be "close to Tao". Tao is to be found in each and every ordinary, mundane moment of life.

 

I have to say Birch Tree that your sincerity is an example to us all. In this you have been a wonderful teacher.

 

[doc benway]

 

I have to say Birch Tree that your sincerity is an example to us all. In this you have been a wonderful teacher.

 

 

What he said!

 

 

_/\_

[Tree04]

I'm glad you got the answer you needed, brother. I think you knew it all along, deep down, this forum just solidified it for you:)

 

Catch you on the tele!

Your sis, Tree04