Ego Inflation - aka Secret Narcissism

[Marblehead]

Hi Deepbluesea,

 

Nice post.

 

I agree that when we start messing with our belief system the first thing we are going to find is emptiness and a loss of a reason to do anything. It might get to the point where nothing matters.

 

It is at this point that we need find reasons why it matters. A purpose for our life, if you will. Once we establish a reason or purpose we can go forward from there.

 

No. It's not always easy. And sometimes we just have to stop thinking and just live and enjoy life for a while.

 

But we are talking about ego here so I will emphasize that I think that the ego is very important. It allows us to identify ourself - to see who we really are. But then, we need keep our ego in check - not allow it to inflate beyond reality.

 

Peace & Love!

[CarsonZi]

Hi Kate and thank you for the really great post.....I hope you don't mind if I jump in where Mr. MarbleHead would not.....

 

Hum.

 

Hum indeed!

 

What I am thinking right now is that "ego" is only the content that you decide it's going to be (structurally they are all the same;-))

 

I "think" you are right, but I am still unsure in my heart. I had written a post saying that the ego can be in unconscious aspects of your mind, but in the process of doing so, I realized that I don't actually fully agree with that....this is a great statement that is causing some really deep inquiry here.....thank you.

 

"ego is only the content that you decide it's going to be"

 

Some questions to inquire into:

1.) Can there *be* unconscious mind-content?

2.) Can you honestly be aware of mind-content and decide it *isn't* ego?

3.) Can the ego exist *without* mind-content?

 

I don't know that I have answers to these questions.....I have written and re-written this post about 3 times now, and I still don't know, so I am going to drop these questions into Silence (samyama style) and see what comes up....or doesn't

 

Thank you again for the Inquiry-inducing post Kate!

 

Love,

Carson

[Marblehead]

Hi Carson,

 

Nice post. Interesting point you brought up. Yes, I think it is a given that ego is a component of our conscious mind. But what about our unconscious mind?

 

The only good representations of our unconscious mind, I think, can be found in our dreams.

 

I think that ego can be seen in many of our dreams. If we are the pivot of the dream then I think that the ego is expressing itself. However, in dreams where we are on the outside viewing ourself in that dream I think that the viewing is being done with an egoless mind.

 

And in line with this thought, when we are in deep meditation I think that once we have become mindless (that is, egoless) we are open to realizations beyond the limits and controls of the ego.

 

These are all new thoughts for me so I am fully open for alternate views.

 

Peace & Love!

[CarsonZi]

Hi MarbleHead....

 

Nice post. Interesting point you brought up. Yes, I think it is a given that ego is a component of our conscious mind. But what about our unconscious mind?

 

I guess you could ask yourself these two questions:

1.) Are all mind-concepts ego?

2.) Is the unconscious mind ego-less?

 

The only good representations of our unconscious mind, I think, can be found in our dreams.

 

It is my understanding that once you get to a certain point of Realization that you stop dreaming (but are instead "awake" while sleeping. I believe the state is called "Turiya". And I am also under the understanding that if you were truly "ego-less" you could not exist as a human being on Earth so-to-speak.....that there could be no physical form if you were truly ego-less. So, if both these two concepts were true that would mean that one could not live in Turiya while in human form...which is not the case. This means that (theoretically) you can relieve the awareness of the ego during dreaming, but not completely during any 3 Dimensional existence. Again this is all theoretically and completely speculative, as I do not have personal experience with living from Turiya all day (I have had glimpses during Deep Meditation, but they have never been lasting).

 

I think that ego can be seen in many of our dreams. If we are the pivot of the dream then I think that the ego is expressing itself. However, in dreams where we are on the outside viewing ourself in that dream I think that the viewing is being done with an egoless mind.

 

I think that as long as we are still have dreams there is ego/conditioning still involved on some level. An "ego-less mind" will not dream in my opinion. Again, purely speculation....or perhaps an "educated guess"

 

And in line with this thought, when we are in deep meditation I think that once we have become mindless (that is, egoless) we are open to realizations beyond the limits and controls of the ego.

 

Absolutely.

 

Thanks for the conversation.

 

Love,

Carson

[Marblehead]

Thanks to you too Carson.

 

Maybe C. Jung will pop in and share a few comments regarding dreams with us.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

While Jung is stuck in his stone tower, I'd like to jump back in because I've been really MORE interested in the stuff Carson's referring to that anything else this past while.

 

Carson, you said:

 

1.) Can there *be* unconscious mind-content?

 

I'm so very not sure about this one. Certainly we habitually accept that there is and that it is even a driving force in us (one of many, now including "genes") Are we still "right" about this? What would it mean for us if we were wrong?

 

This isn't meant to be anything other than an idea. I think what there might be is "habituation" (the "conditioning" that is often referred to by some Buddhists) which just doesn't require consciousness to function. So it's not a driving force unless it's set in motion, just an efficiency.

 

I think there is a point at which it becomes painful BUT this point is reached only when this ability results in a response that isn't actually adapted to the situation at hand. The less than desirable result is then re-fed back into the whole thing.

 

So we might also be looking at a system that is in constant reality-checking mode while also using its very efficient pattern-recognition process. I know I'm using sort of geeky-tech words, but I don't have others that I know to use to tell you what I'm after.

 

2.) Can you honestly be aware of mind-content and decide it *isn't* ego?

 

Yes I think you can. If you're reading a novel for example and conjuring up the scenes in your mind, you know it isn't "you" - I think the "you" has to have a certain (something;-)) about it to be acceptable to you as a "you". What that might be is??

 

3.) Can the ego exist *without* mind-content?

 

I think that it would depend on 1) and 2)

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

[goldisheavy]

Your ego is heavy.

 

Same weight as Buddha's or Bodhidharma's.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

I exchanged a few notes with SereneBlue in PM and she asked me to post my replies to her because she thinks they could be useful to someone "out there" besides her.

 

Here's the first one:

 

Hi Serene, I can use a bit of luck! Thank you!

 

Of course I have all kinds of complexes and problems and my ego in terms of size and clinging is beyond measure. But that's just one angle. One way for me to look at myself. I have other ways of looking as well. What I enjoy about being myself is that I am never stuck in any one perspective. I can enjoy a certain perspective for a long time, but if I am bored with it, I am free to move to a different one.

 

Ego is a complicated subject, but to make a long story short... most people praise small or un-clingy egos for one reason and one reason only -- being surrounded by people with such egos makes life easier. So it's kind of a self-centered desire to begin with. So for example, if I take all your toys away from you and I've also trained you not to cling to toys, that's good for me, because now I can keep the toys and you can keep nothing.

 

Notice how societies that praise humility tend to be the ones with the most domination, abuse, poverty and dictatorship? It's not a coincidence. If every member of society thinks that he or she deserve good life and entertain other such audacious thoughts, it's hard to impose difficulties on such people without some kind of reaction. So this dynamic plays out on large and small scales. You can see it within countries as well as among groups of friends.

 

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with you. I just wanted to bring certain things to your attention to see how you would react for my own curiosity (that's a selfish reason on my part) and also to see if I could help you discover the source of the problem by tugging at the knots so to speak, to make them evident.

 

There is nothing wrong with using any font or any color. I wasn't being so straightforward in my comment. I personally care very little for what colors, pictures and fonts you use for expressing yourself, as long as I can read them with my less than perfect eyesight. What I was doing though is this: I know how people think. I don't know it for sure, but I know it with a high degree of certainty. So using this knowledge I made statements which were basically groundless, or even false. Now, a wise person would understand this right away and not be affected in the least. But someone who has yet more things to learn would benefit from those statements. At least, that's what I believe.

 

It's like this. If you believe in the golden fish, I say I've seen it in Florida. You run to Florida. Then I say, "oops, no, I've seen it in New York" So you run to New York. So I am using your belief in the golden fish to send you on a fools errand here and there until you get exhausted. Then you might think the whole golden fish thing is kind of stupid, or at the very least, the golden fish is not something that can be learned from external sources, since it's your idea to begin with! See what I mean?

 

So if someone believes that ego is important, or that small ego is better than large one, or that non-clinging to ego is better than clinging, I can use those beliefs to play on the person's emotions like a violin. The stronger the person believes these things the more I can control them. Of course it's not just me! The whole world can take advantage of that! Any fixation whatsoever can be used against you. Actually this kind of situation doesn't have to be bad. It's only bad if you value freedom. In that case fixations are seen as fetters and are undesirable.

 

It's damn lucky I am not malicious and don't actually try to control people for any reason other than briefly for the sake of wisdom and mind training. There are some very unscrupulous people out in the world who will use that to their "material" or "social status" advantage in such a way as to cause harm and suffering to the manipulated people. Watch out! Someone who wants to reduce one's ego is an easy target for such people.

 

I hope you don't make too big of a deal out of anything I say here in PM or on the forum. To make a big deal out of anything I say is a big mistake in my opinion, and that kind of mistake will reduce the benefit of my words. I do believe they are beneficial or else I wouldn't speak them.

 

And since this is already pretty big, I'll add the second one below.

 

Second reply in PM to SereneBlue:

 

I thought about what you said in your original topic some more and this is what comes to mind now.

 

You asked "How to tell if your spiritual experiences are real instead of Ego?"

 

I think this whole ego discussion is obscuring a deeper concern that you have. That doesn't mean the discussion is useless. I believe that once you sort out ego issues, you can have better, more direct access to deeper concerns that bug you.

 

Still, I wanted to touch on those deeper concerns now anyway. I believe the deeper concern is this: "Should I welcome this new manifestation into my reality? Or should I say 'no' to it?" I also wrestle with this very question often, even (or maybe especially?) in recent times. Someone who explores one's mind deeply is bound to encounter strange phenomena sooner or later. These can be of limitless variety: time travel, travel through space, miraculous healings and coincidences, strange voices or music, seeing with your eyes closed or out of the back of your head, leaving your body, feeling like your body is endless space itself, feeling like you are someone else or like there is no "you", and so on. I barely scratched the surface here, as these can be endless. For example, there was some famous Dzogchen master who is said to have temporarily reversed the flow of the river. That's pretty creepy, isn't it? I imagine when he did this for the first time, he too must have thought "it can't be real" eh? Or how about when Sun Pu Erh learned to lay in a tub of boiling water? She must have thought, "Surely this is crazy... this cannot be real... boiling water would surely kill any person! Am I crazy? Is this a trick?? Am I hallucinating?" Maybe by the time she learned to sit in a tub of boiling (and ice) water she already didn't have thoughts like that, but I can guarantee you that the first time she has experienced a similar phenomenon, she was surprised and had all kinds of doubts, concerns, fears and questions.

 

Apologies for the long paragraph, but it is one whole thought. I hope it's worth reading.

 

Thing is... anyone has the capacity to transform one's own realm. You can change what is "normal" in your life. But should you? Ultimately no one can honestly tell you what decision is best for you. Relatively speaking though, we can talk about it and maybe it will help you to decide something on this topic.

 

I think the most important part is to not become a slave to any phenomena. This includes even "normal" worldly phenomena, like washing hands, or like eating, or anything like that. It also includes anything that we might consider strange at this time, like hearing spirit guides. Another thing that's important is to avoid making fear-driven decisions. In my experience making decision based largely on fear leads to a life of misery. Other than that, maybe it's a matter of taste? What is the best drink? Well, if you are not a slave to one brand of bottled water, or a slave to alcohol, then choosing a drink becomes a matter of taste, right? That's how I look at it right now.

 

That's not all that I think about this topic. I can write more, but I think it's already a large post.

 

May you experience life of wisdom, happiness and good fortune.

Edited October 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

Same weight as Buddha's or Bodhidharma's.

 

 

 

Not even close, they are like walking space, without weight, without ego.

 

bye

 

Edit: But with loooots of influence... because everyone wants to walk as light as air.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

Not even close, they are like walking space, without weight, without ego.

 

bye

 

Edit: But with loooots of influence... because everyone wants to walk as light as air.

 

You're smoking some good shit brother.

Edited October 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

I just thought that I should mention that I still love my ego.

 

(Those were pretty good PM's, Gold.)

 

Peace & Love!