impotent or watered down mantras?

[alexandrov]

Hey all

 

Recently I have been very interested in mantric science, however I have a few questions I am hoping some of you here can adress.

 

First what I have come to see is that when people speak of mantras they are usually reffering to 1 of 2 things. Firstly there are what I dubb the "magic" mantras or the mantras that were constructed carefully by highly accomplished masters to produce certain effects involving specific entities, forces, and reality control that extend outside the practitioners physical body. Theses mantras also usually involve stimulating or directing energies within the body as well. The second type of mantra is simply a sound aka "sound mantra" that only has the effect of stimulating energetic processes inside one's body.

 

An example of a "magic" mantra would be om mani peme hung, and a sound mantra would be something like the 6 healing sounds.

 

I personally have a lot of concerns about the authenticity of many of the magic mantras because for example in vajrayana buddhism many of them started out in sanskrit and were translated into tibetan or other launguages. I just dont understand how if they were translated they could retain their authenticity because originally they were designed very specifically syllable by syllable. I have even heard of some tibetan buddhism teachers talking about translating mantras into english.......yikes!!!

 

any thoughts

[Trunk]

... translating mantras into english.......yikes!!!

I don't know if, or to what degree, mantras have changed from sanskrit -> Tibetan.

 

I think that I'm at least partly on the same page as you re: translating to English. The English language is designed to communicate strings of concepts.

 

The mantric syllables are tools for consciousness transformation via sound, visualization. Some written syllables are maps of the inner. Some mantric strings are the sound signatures of deities.

 

Totally different tools for different jobs. They both just happen to be called "languages".

 

To me the om syllable says a lot. Curved on one side, straight on the other, a dot in the middle. It's a diagram of the inner path, the vajra process.

 

 

btw, I found these pictures at Visible Mantra : Buddhist Calligraphy http://www.visiblemantra.org. Seems like it might be a hip site. (Hip? Hop? Hip-hop anonymous?)

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I personally have a lot of concerns about the authenticity of many of the magic mantras because for example in vajrayana buddhism many of them started out in sanskrit and were translated into tibetan or other launguages. I just dont understand how if they were translated they could retain their authenticity because originally they were designed very specifically syllable by syllable. I have even heard of some tibetan buddhism teachers talking about translating mantras into english.......yikes!!!

 

any thoughts

 

Alot of Tibetan Vajrayana Rinpoches teach the magic mantras in Sanskrit. I know mine does. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

 

So, I guess I have no worries.

 

Om Ah Hum Vajraguru Padma Siddhi Hum!

[Vajrahridaya]

How does one even deal with the fact that some languages have sounds that cannot be perfectly reproduced by native speakers of other languages, no matter how long the person studies to remove their accent and linguistic idiosyncrasies. This is perticularly troublesome for people who have syllabary-based languages, such as Chinese, Japanese, and Korean.

 

Also for the most part it's an intention thing, as the power of the mantra is also reflective of the level of contemplation and depth of meditation involved from the mind of the practitioner. Also... if a Guru has realized the deep meaning of the mantra, even if repeated out of pronunciation, then it will still hold the power due to the teachers intention.

 

There is a story about this I'll relate.

 

A highly learned Lama Rinpoche was walking along one side of the river and he saw on the other side of the river a yogic practitioner doing mantras and doing fire offerings. He saw by the set up, what exact practice the yogi was trying from across the body of water and saw that the yogi was offering the different elements in the wrong order and at the wrong time. So, he got a boat and traveled across the deep river and as he got closer, he also noticed that he was repeating the mantras wrong, accenting the wrong points and singing certain mantras at the wrong tune. "He's a mess!" He thought to himself and thought that he should benefit the poor yogi by teaching him the proper way to do it all. So, he brought his boat to the other shore and interrupted the old yogi and compassionately helped him with the order of his offerings and the pronunciation and order of his mantras. The old yogi was very happy to get personal help from this well known Rinpoche. The Rinpoche felt content with what he had taught the old yogi and went on his way. He took the boat back across the river and as he was pulling the boat up to the other shore... he peered over at where the old yogi was sitting and saw that he had gotten up from where he was sitting and was in fact right in the middle of the wide and deep river running towards him, right across the surface of the river, without a boat! The Rinpoche just looked and his jaw dropped, his eyes watered and he was totally bewildered by what he was seeing. The old yogi got to the same shore as the Rinpoche and asked him... "Rinpoche, Rinpoche! I forgot how you taught me to repeat this one mantra, is it... Om Mane Pedme Hung? Or how did you say it?" The Rinpoche just looked at him, bowed to him humbly and said... "However you've been repeating your mantras up to this point is totally fine, please continue your practice the way you have always done it, I don't know anything at all."

 

Om Mani Padme Hum

Edited October 2, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Also for the most part it's an intention thing, as the power of the mantra is also reflective of the level of contemplation and depth of meditation involved from the mind of the practitioner. Also... if a Guru has realized the deep meaning of the mantra, even if repeated out of pronunciation, then it will still hold the power due to the teachers intention.

 

There is a story about this I'll relate.

...

 

Om Mani Padme Hum

 

Thank you, that was a wonderful example.

[Trunk]

Just to mention. I find that doing the mantra silently in conjunction with visualizing the syllables at the deep-centers along the central channel. Various things that you can do with the syllables. "As small and as clear as you can". Also luminous (colors or simply golden bright), and/or spinning. Sets many of the right things in the right directions, ime. Especially with deity yoga.

[Vajrahridaya]

Just to mention. I find that doing the mantra silently in conjunction with visualizing the syllables at the deep-centers along the central channel. Various things that you can do with the syllables. "As small and as clear as you can". Also luminous (colors or simply golden bright), and/or spinning. Sets many of the right things in the right directions, ime. Especially with deity yoga.

 

Well, that's Tantra dude...

[Lucky7Strikes]

Edited October 2, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Andrei]

OM MANI PADME HUNG means "hail to the jewel hidden in lotus". Does not matter how you pronounce it, or how you translate it in another language but what it means.

 

So, keep meditating in the lotus position and you'll find the jewel.

[bindo]

Also for the most part it's an intention thing, as the power of the mantra is also reflective of the level of contemplation and depth of meditation involved from the mind of the practitioner. Also... if a Guru has realized the deep meaning of the mantra, even if repeated out of pronunciation, then it will still hold the power due to the teachers intention.

 

There is a story about this I'll relate.

 

A highly learned Lama Rinpoche was walking along one side of the river and he saw on the other side of the river a yogic practitioner doing mantras and doing fire offerings. He saw by the set up, what exact practice the yogi was trying from across the body of water and saw that the yogi was offering the different elements in the wrong order and at the wrong time. So, he got a boat and traveled across the deep river and as he got closer, he also noticed that he was repeating the mantras wrong, accenting the wrong points and singing certain mantras at the wrong tune. "He's a mess!" He thought to himself and thought that he should benefit the poor yogi by teaching him the proper way to do it all. So, he brought his boat to the other shore and interrupted the old yogi and compassionately helped him with the order of his offerings and the pronunciation and order of his mantras. The old yogi was very happy to get personal help from this well known Rinpoche. The Rinpoche felt content with what he had taught the old yogi and went on his way. He took the boat back across the river and as he was pulling the boat up to the other shore... he peered over at where the old yogi was sitting and saw that he had gotten up from where he was sitting and was in fact right in the middle of the wide and deep river running towards him, right across the surface of the river, without a boat! The Rinpoche just looked and his jaw dropped, his eyes watered and he was totally bewildered by what he was seeing. The old yogi got to the same shore as the Rinpoche and asked him... "Rinpoche, Rinpoche! I forgot how you taught me to repeat this one mantra, is it... Om Mane Pedme Hung? Or how did you say it?" The Rinpoche just looked at him, bowed to him humbly and said... "However you've been repeating your mantras up to this point is totally fine, please continue your practice the way you have always done it, I don't know anything at all."

 

Om Mani Padme Hum

That story is almost exactly the same as Leo Tolstoy's story called "The Three Hermits". A favorite of mine I read about 25 years ago.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I remember reading that initiation is vastly important in the use of sacred syllables. Not that that means anything.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[mat black]

One of the things I always wonder is whether the original version of the Shurangama Mantra be recovered. Is there a fully approved one currently? To by knowledge there isn't. But knowing that it has always been preserved and recited by countless Zen Buddhists of East Asia in Chinese, perhaps the Chinese version does not lack in its 'magic'?

 

P.S. There are also verses of transmission, similar to Mantras and prayers. And info?

This site has audio commentary of the Shurangama Mantra based on Master Hsuan Hua's explanation.

It also has audio chanting in Siddham and Sanskrit. There are many files, but all are very much worth listening to if you are interested in the Shurangama Mantra.

 

http://shurangama.com/shurangama-mantra/index.htm

[de_paradise]

I dont know about magic, but clearly intent always makes the pivotal difference to connect to higher spiritual beings and realms.

 

One thing I noticed during the hundreds of hours Ive done mantra, is that in NLP terms, (Visual-Audio-Kinesthetic) that I have a Audio dominated mind, so that, when I do mantra its very effective because my mind is fully engaged, and thoughts from the visual sense do not just pop in easily. Therefore its a simple and efficient way of acheiving one pointed focus. But for some other people it may not be as effective.

 

One day I'd like to get a mantra by empowerment so I can explore whether it makes any difference.

[rex]

I remember one teacher on being asked if students could recite a particular practice in English replying 'Yes', but when it came to the mantras and even certain prayers saying 'No' since they were the words of an enlightened teacher and there was 'magic' in them.

[ngtest]

[Spectrum]

Edited October 2, 2009 by Spectrum

[Vajrahridaya]

[orb]

Hey all

 

Recently I have been very interested in mantric science, however I have a few questions I am hoping some of you here can adress.

 

First what I have come to see is that when people speak of mantras they are usually reffering to 1 of 2 things. Firstly there are what I dubb the "magic" mantras or the mantras that were constructed carefully by highly accomplished masters to produce certain effects involving specific entities, forces, and reality control that extend outside the practitioners physical body. Theses mantras also usually involve stimulating or directing energies within the body as well. The second type of mantra is simply a sound aka "sound mantra" that only has the effect of stimulating energetic processes inside one's body.

 

An example of a "magic" mantra would be om mani peme hung, and a sound mantra would be something like the 6 healing sounds.

 

I personally have a lot of concerns about the authenticity of many of the magic mantras because for example in vajrayana buddhism many of them started out in sanskrit and were translated into tibetan or other launguages. I just dont understand how if they were translated they could retain their authenticity because originally they were designed very specifically syllable by syllable. I have even heard of some tibetan buddhism teachers talking about translating mantras into english.......yikes!!!

 

any thoughts

 

 

 

Great topic.

Mantra are great if you have received it from somebody that really "knows it".

Although there are different kinds of mantras most of them are like a formula that carry out a certain type of information and is capable of creating a certain type of effect in your body. For example you can spend a lot of time educating yourself about energetic channels in your body and the way to control them or you can just get a certain mantra from a good teacher which would help you achieve the same effect but a lot faster (however you will be quite ignorant on how and why does the mantra work).

A lot of mantras are to be practiced with a certain position as well as a certain breathing exercise, mental representation and/or a particular mudra.

A correct mantra will generate a very strong vibration of a certain kind in one part of your body or in the whole body but it takes a lot to learn it. One teacher that I know of will sit with you for 3-5 days for about 4-5 hours per day "singing" this mantra with you until you are tuned to that particular sound and he can tell for sure that you got it and can use it. It's like a singer that has to practice a lot before he/she is capable of reproducing somebody else's song.

Most of the time though, the right kind of transmission has been neglected or forgotten over time and all that is left is an empty word that has no effect and nobody knows how to use it. It's still being transmitted from generation to generation by different practices but it's totally useless now

it's like a plastic flower that looks exactly like a real one but is very different at the same time and the followers keep using it for their rituals and they wil never know what that flower is supposed to smell like.

For example the healing sounds - there are a lot of teachers out there that think they know the healing sounds - but they just don't have it because they forgot a few little details.

And you can't just "guess" this sound either if you've never heard the original one.