Emptiness Meditation

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

becoming so comfortable with 'Living' that there is no need to 'think' it.. it naturally responds to its own existence..

 

Be well..

 

Greetings..

 

It is interesting to note the various attachments to 'ritual' in a Taoist forum.. something a bit inconsistent with Taoist philosophy, as i understand it..

 

Be well..

 

Everything is ritual, attachment is not the thing, but if it's an attachment that leads to liberation from attachment, it's a healthy attachment. Like the ritual of good eating and thanking the elements from deep within for the blessing of having manifested as food, to even think of the entire process in a deeply contemplative way, and good meditation, good teeth brushing, good conduct... it's all a beautiful ritual.

 

Think if the Earth lost it's ritual of going around the sun, or the moon lost it's ritual of going around the Earth? Or if the seasons didn't ritually change?

 

The comment about not thinking is not possible, now there are different levels of thinking. When you are more aware on a deeper than conceptual level, there is still processing of information, on a level of images, colors, positive feeling, subtle vibration hugging a deep sense of peace, gratitude and openness. There is movement, but yes... I think you are referring to confined thinking, or ego hard thinking.

 

There are just different stages to thinking, more gross to more subtle.

 

Logic and reason will become spontaneous and in alignment with flow and not be confined and filled with projection. But until fully liberated, one should thinking about one's thinking on subtler and subtler paradigms. Making no excuses, either experiential, or intellectual for not going deeper until complete liberation. Of course, that might be something different in Buddhism than Taoism. It might depend upon your lineage too. Because in Buddhism there are different stages. There is Nirvana, then there is Buddhahood, which is deeper than merely Nirvana.

 

Anyway... if you think this is all just thought constructs. You are wrong.

 

 

 

 

Once a 'way' is found the individual can then modify their experience in order to maximize the effort until it becomes a non-effort (natural) experience. I guess the important thing from a Taoist view would be to not get stuck with the rituals and ceremonies and loose the experience.

 

Peace & Love!

 

True that... it is really about the inner experience, not the outer ritual. The ritual is designed to take one deeper and deeper, if it's a good and strong method done with a strong intention and feeling, not cold and empty (empty like a jar, not the same as emptiness in Buddhism) For clarity.

[~jK~]

Rofl, that may be.

 

btw thanks for the link.

 

peace,

wt

Welcome - another on the dietary end is that I have ran across a few of the legendary -and documented - meditators in Asia that refused to eat any other than raw as in living foods. Most were vegetarians but included eggs and raw fish in the diet.

I practice many forms of Meditation with Emptiness Meditation being the most often (at least once a day) and Kundalini being second. Here is the empty mind process: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=11802

The Kundalini meditation - as well as a few others are here: http://www.amazon.com/Five-Tibetans-Dynami...l/dp/0892814500

 

Adrenalin is released into the bloodstream of an animal or bird through the fight or flight syndrome before it dies.

The theory is that it is difficult to meditate with adrenalin circulating inside you...

 

These were sent to me by Steam (a Tao Bum) a few weeks ago:

Through the practice of "Emptiness Meditation" I've experienced quite a bit of what the video's talk about.

 

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1d9qz_spi...-pt1_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da00_spi...lity-pt2_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da8v_spi...-pt3_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dae5_spi...ty-pt4_creation

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1daj2_spi...eality-pt5_blog

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1danq_spi...eality-pt6_news

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dapv_spi...lity-pt7_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dijt_spi...lity-pt8_school

 

Take care

[Marblehead]

Anyway... if you think this is all just thought constructs. You are wrong.

 

Hi V.,

 

Although I do agree with you I think you went a little deep with your ides on ritual. Hehehe. Yeah, the Earth rotates around the Sun but I wouldn't call that a ritual. That is, in my mind, one of the processes of nature.

 

But your other points were nicely stated.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

From Wikipedia:

A ritual is a set of actions, performed mainly for their symbolic value, which is prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community. The term usually excludes actions which are arbitrarily chosen by the performers, or dictated purely by logic, chance, necessity, etc..

 

Hi V: Lets keep ritual in its proper perspective..

The comment about not thinking is not possible,

That is consistent with Buddhist beliefs.. Taoists, typically, choose to 'wait and see', you just might be surprised by what IS possible..

Anyway... if you think this is all just thought constructs. You are wrong.

This is consistent with Buddhist beliefs.. it seems they find 'liberation' in the pronouncement of certainties and absolutes.. Taoists tend to actually investigate things, not relying on preconceived opinions..

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

That is consistent with Buddhist beliefs.. Taoists, typically, choose to 'wait and see', you just might be surprised by what IS possible..

 

 

Buddhism doesn't deny any aspect of any Human capacity in the end. If one is like a mirror, as a mirror does not grasp at it's reflections, thoughts do not get in the way of the state of liberation.

 

This is not a Buddhist belief, but is the state of a Buddha "awake one".

 

 

This is consistent with Buddhist beliefs.. it seems they find 'liberation' in the pronouncement of certainties and absolutes.. Taoists tend to actually investigate things, not relying on preconceived opinions..

 

Be well..

 

Wow, this is as far off as this sun is from the next one. Where you pulled this one out of? Must be imagination and thinking too much?

 

Buddhist investigations both requires logic, reason, analyzing, letting go of thought, watching thought, seeing through the process while engaging with it. Meditation, and study. Nothing I believe is a pre-conceived notion, it is all from direct experiencing, both through the senses and beyond. Buddhism just puts it into the clearest perspective and interpretation into expression through words and method that I have found.

 

Which is why the Buddha is considered quite an important human being, because he realized nothing different from how reality actually works, not a set of projections.

 

If you would only realize how dependent your thoughts originate upon your current stage of experiencing and interpreting. You would see that even though your opinion is erroneous and out of sync, it still reveals the truth of the Buddhas teaching of dependent origination/emptiness. This is not an idea, it's merely a fact of how things work. Not merely cause and effect either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi V.,

 

Although I do agree with you I think you went a little deep with your ides on ritual. Hehehe. Yeah, the Earth rotates around the Sun but I wouldn't call that a ritual. That is, in my mind, one of the processes of nature.

 

But your other points were nicely stated.

 

Peace & Love!

 

My point was that basically ritual is natural. We all have our rituals, both mundane and spiritual. Those that live a chaotic life are generally unhappy and dis-satisfied and don't live as long as those with healthy mundane and spiritual rituals that they engage in utter surrender to the moment. Then there is also flexibility and non-attachment as well.

 

Humans generally make a ritual out of what they find pleasurable or beneficial, and if they do it for a long time, they continue doing it even after the pleasure is gone and the benefits are gone as well. An enlightened being will change their ritual according to what is beneficial without attachment.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

This is consistent with Buddhist beliefs.. it seems they find 'liberation' in the pronouncement of certainties and absolutes.. Taoists tend to actually investigate things, not relying on preconceived opinions..

 

Be well..

 

I "analyzed" your statements and "thought" I would add this...

 

Buddhism actually does not believe in absolute truth, only relativity, which is what dependent origination/emptiness means.

 

No "one" basis of all things, merely malleability without any static nature.

 

The only constant is inconstancy. There is no ultimate nature, other than non-absoluteness of all things.

 

All things and beings are inherently empty of any static substance, thus the state of fullness can be realized.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[exorcist_1699]

Edited November 16, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Vajrahridaya]

L

 

In brief, what the process should be done is a concentrated intuitional jump , not anything analytic.

 

( By the way, in fact, all mathematical genius rely on their intuition, not anything analytic; )

 

Actually a genius sees that both are actually in union.

 

Through analysis of dependent origination, one eventually has the intuitive experience, if one is also coupling study with meditation.

 

I see your brushing away of the intellect as lacking insight into dependent origination. Because both are not separate.

 

Also, thinking that intuition is not conditioned, is a fools gold that merely leads to higher rebirth because it's taking the assumption that there is a real truth underlying "self", that always is.

 

Your whole premise is out of sync with the Buddhas stages of liberation. Analysis leads to intuition which leads to emptiness, which is not the same as "nothingness"... so you are off base from the very beginning due to various mis-assumptions.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

My point was that basically ritual is natural. We all have our rituals, both mundane and spiritual. Those that live a chaotic life are generally unhappy and dis-satisfied and don't live as long as those with healthy mundane and spiritual rituals that they engage in utter surrender to the moment. Then there is also flexibility and non-attachment as well.

 

Humans generally make a ritual out of what they find pleasurable or beneficial, and if they do it for a long time, they continue doing it even after the pleasure is gone and the benefits are gone as well. An enlightened being will change their ritual according to what is beneficial without attachment.

 

Fair thoughts. Even though I consider my life very spontaneously lived in recent years I know that I do have certain aspects of my life that are redundant and I have tried to make the actions required as simple and efficient as possible. (Hey, I'm a German - my mind likes organization.)

 

I think that what you said above about continuing the ritual after the effects are gone is important. This is why I think it is important for us to periodically question the things we do. If a certain ritual, or whatever, is no longer serving a useful purpose it should be thrown in the trash can.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Interesting thoughts V. & Exorcist.

 

To an able person , this series should be done at a stroke ...

 

I think that this is what V. is speaking to. It is a rare person, I think, who can go from a very challenging and active day into deep meditation. To be able to do so requires a lot of practice, training and dedication.

 

Achieving deep meditation (nothingness) is no easy task. Our brain and senses are constantly trying to do their thing. All these must be stilled first and completely before one attains emptiness. (Try leaving your eyes open in a lighted room without seeing anything and you will understand what I am saying.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Riyue]

What really is emptiness meditation?

 

For 上清派 Shang4qing1 pai4 it is described in

黃庭經 huang2 ting2 jing1

revealed by 魏華存 lady wei4 hua2 cun2 (252-334)

Saso describes / translates / comments it in his book Gold Pavilion.

[~jK~]

Empty Mind is done every nght by me.

I've done it sitting on the beach in Hong Kong.

Time dissapears.

[C T]

Empty Mind is done every nght by me.

I've done it sitting on the beach in Hong Kong.

Time dissapears.

Yes, Hong Kong... its not hard to 'lose' oneself there. Such a beautiful place,

vibrantly contrasting from one corner to the next.

 

Found it hard to leave after spending a year there.

 

Memories. All of them fond.

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

There are many ways of chopping that series of consciousness , Zen's way seems the most clean-cut ,and can be summarized in just one sentence:

 

"當下無心, 悟無所得 "

 

" At one stroke I enter mindlessness , and expect no more " ( from Awakening, Enlightenment... )

 

The key is " expect no more " which simply bars any ideas from coming .....

[Marblehead]

The key is " expect no more " which simply bars any ideas from coming .....

 

Yep. Expectations destroy the possibility of attaining emptiness.

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

"Emptiness meditation" is exactly that - emptiness. That is, we sit in the most comfortable position we know of and then we empty our mind. We forget what we are thiking about then we totally stop thinking. We don't think about our heart rate or our breathing or anything else. Our mind becomes totally empty. Afterall, it is only where there is emptiness where something can enter. Something may or may not enter. It doesn't matter.

I just wanted to say that this is sitting and forgetting - Taoist voidness meditation, not Buddhist vipassana, zazen or shikantaza mentioned by the OP. It's not even how emptiness is understood in Buddhism.

[Marblehead]

I just wanted to say that this is sitting and forgetting - Taoist voidness meditation, not Buddhist vipassana, zazen or shikantaza mentioned by the OP. It's not even how emptiness is understood in Buddhism.

 

No arguement there. Meditation, as described by Chuang Tzu, is very different from Buddhist, and most other, forms of meditation.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

There are many ways of chopping that series of consciousness , Zen's way seems the most clean-cut ,and can be summarized in just one sentence:

 

"當下無心, 悟無所得 "

 

" At one stroke I enter mindlessness , and expect no more " ( from Awakening, Enlightenment... )

 

The key is " expect no more " which simply bars any ideas from coming .....

 

I find "mindless" to be a bad translation into English as it's more about "free from mind", not that mind dies, but that one's awareness of mind is transformed and liberated.

 

If a certain ritual, or whatever, is no longer serving a useful purpose it should be thrown in the trash can.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Exactly.

 

Edited November 19, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[NeiChuan]

.I have touched real emptiness with the white skeleton meditation several times but every time I "wake up" because it feels like I am disappearing body and mind like I will die.

 

Since I have done many meditation methods and never been close to real emptiness with other methods than white skeleton meditation, that is the meditation I would suggest that you try. Anapanasati is also good.

 

 

Hm yea very cool.. I actually had no definition for emptiness meditation.

 

Anyway when I started meditation I did this.. And basically only thing and qi gong.. I could easily say even till now Anapanasati is still my foundation. Anyway I could say I've felt nearly the same.. The slipping away feeling - I'd guess it differs with the individual though. Im curious..

 

I haven't had this in common with any really.. well yet.

 

When im meditating after a bit and I guess deep enough in meditation and im called/door knocked, banged/basically just surprised I'll feel actual pain lol, along my limbs especially the elbows, basically a shock. (not to get the all electricity/chi discussion going) Also when I hear foot steps/walking for me I guess since its a disturbance it'll happen/build up.

[exorcist_1699]

It seems attaining a status of emptiness is closely linked with the stop of our old , ordinary way of breathing , and open to the possibility of a new way of life ; The fluctuating mind is , in fact , the main reason barring us from experiencing our genuine existence . The characteristics of this pseudo- existence are incorporated in our dependence on air, food, water,sleeping ...all of course make us unfree , and is unlikely to be anything reasonable .

Edited November 19, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[~jK~]

It seems attaining a status of emptiness is closely linked with the stop of our old , ordinary way of breathing , and open to the possibility of a new way of life ; The fluctuating mind is , in fact , the main reason barring us from experiencing our genuine existence . The characteristics of this pseudo- existence are incorporated in our dependence on air, food, water,sleeping ...all of course make us unfree , and is unlikely to be anything reasonable .

 

When in the true mindfull state of the Savasana, I become only mind. No body. When entering the Savasana, my body feels like a lump of clay. Breathing is on auto reflex and forgotten. I practice it every night for over 20 years.

 

I know that even when I sleep now that I am Savasana as when I wake, I can feel my spirit re-enter first my mind as it wakes, my awareness of this plane of exisiance expands to my toes then outward.

 

Savasana = http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=11802

 

I had written of my experiences described here - before Steam posted these videos:

 

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1d9qz_spi...-pt1_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da00_spi...lity-pt2_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1da8v_spi...-pt3_shortfilms

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dae5_spi...ty-pt4_creation

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1daj2_spi...eality-pt5_blog

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1danq_spi...eality-pt6_news

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dapv_spi...lity-pt7_people

http://www.dailymotion.pl/video/x1dijt_spi...lity-pt8_school

 

Knocks & Bangs ? U guys are having auditory hallucinations.. - Think about it - the point is to experience the inner mindfull world Not the physical world where Knocks, Bangs & thunder gates exist... What circus do you live at ?

Edited November 19, 2009 by ~jK~

[exorcist_1699]

Hm yea very cool.. I actually had no definition for emptiness meditation.

 

 

When im meditating after a bit and I guess deep enough in meditation and im called/door knocked, banged/basically just surprised I'll feel actual pain lol, along my limbs especially the elbows, basically a shock. (not to get the all electricity/chi discussion going) Also when I hear foot steps/walking for me I guess since its a disturbance it'll happen/build up.

 

 

In fact, different sounds always accompany our practice : the pop-up of a bigger Mind, the open of the Magic Gate...all give people significant sounds or even thunders..

Edited November 19, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[alexandrov]

QUOTE(Marblehead @ Nov 14 2009, 06:00 PM)

 

"Emptiness meditation" is exactly that - emptiness. That is, we sit in the most comfortable position we know of and then we empty our mind. We forget what we are thiking about then we totally stop thinking. We don't think about our heart rate or our breathing or anything else. Our mind becomes totally empty. Afterall, it is only where there is emptiness where something can enter. Something may or may not enter. It doesn't matter.

 

 

I just wanted to say that this is sitting and forgetting - Taoist voidness meditation, not Buddhist vipassana, zazen or shikantaza mentioned by the OP. It's not even how emptiness is understood in Buddhism.

 

 

I was just wondering how shikantaza and taoist emptiness meditation are different? Maybe the concepts of emptiness are different in the 2 systems, but in my understanding both of these techniques have basically the same set of instructions, right?

[Marblehead]

 

I was just wondering how shikantaza and taoist emptiness meditation are different? Maybe the concepts of emptiness are different in the 2 systems, but in my understanding both of these techniques have basically the same set of instructions, right?

 

Hi Alex,

 

I can't speak for the Buddhist side but from what I have heard from the Buddhist here in the various threads I am inclined to believe that they are very similar. They do use different words but I think the the application of the words are basically the same.

 

Now, it may be that the goals are different but I believe that if the same practices are being applied then similar goals will be attained.

 

I do welcome Buddhist comments to agree or disagree with my above.

 

Peace & Love!

[markern]