Influence of primitive tribalism in religion

[ralis]

Four main points are unique to all belief systems and religions. No exceptions.

 

1. Membership is important to one's sense of identity, with the belief that one's religion is inherently good.

2. In terms of beliefs and that could include race, all other tribes that differ, are inferior.

3. In general tribal dynamics are the same. This would be defined as belief systems etc. that create group

cohesiveness.

4. Rituals and charismatic leaders that produce trance in followers to maintain a certain order and group think.

5. Fear of disobedience and punishment for some higher purpose. Karma and sin.

 

 

Just a brief outline before bedtime. I know who is going to chime in on this one.

 

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

Well, I will agree with your post.

 

All I will say is that I think it is sad that we humans still have a need for religions.

 

Mankind has advanced in every aspect of life except this one. Still living in the caves in this regard.

 

Peace & Love!

[doc benway]

We are still primitive and tribal in so many ways.

Where is human evolution?

Technological and intellectual advancement are obvious.

Emotional and psychological advancement?

I don't see much.

What would it take for us to really make meaningful change in those areas?

It hasn't happened in human history so far...

[innerspace_cadet]

Four main points are unique to all belief systems and religions. No exceptions.

 

1. Membership is important to one's sense of identity, with the belief that one's religion is inherently good.

2. In terms of beliefs and that could include race, all other tribes that differ, are inferior.

3. In general tribal dynamics are the same. This would be defined as belief systems etc. that create group

cohesiveness.

4. Rituals and charismatic leaders that produce trance in followers to maintain a certain order and group think.

5. Fear of disobedience and punishment for some higher purpose. Karma and sin.

Just a brief outline before bedtime. I know who is going to chime in on this one.

ralis

 

As the atheist author Sam Harris pointed out, the problem of religious tribalism gets compounded enormously when these different tribes acquire nuclear weapons.

 

I think the world needs less religious belief, not more. Believing in things you can't prove isn't necessarily dangerous, but when that belief leads you to harm yourself or others, it needs to be dropped. It could be something as simple as guilt about sex, or as monumental as killing infidels.

 

I saw this religious tribalism firsthand when I went with my friend and his wife to her church for Sunday Mass. The preacher labeled other religions "hopeless gospels" and falsehoods. What kept me up that night was the thought that the majority of the congregation probably won't question that nonsense. And they'll go out back out into the community the other six days of the week and mingle with people of supposed "hopeless gospels".

Edited October 7, 2009 by innerspace_cadet

[Marblehead]

What would it take for us to really make meaningful change in those areas?

 

How about if everyone became Philosophical Taoists?

 

(Sorry. Just couldn't resist that.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

I think the world needs less religious belief, not more. Believing in things you can't prove isn't necessarily dangerous, but when that belief leads you to harm yourself or others, it needs to be dropped. It could be something as simple as guilt about sex, or as monumental as killing infidels.

 

 

I just wanted to repeat this.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

Primitive tribalism fits well into the latest research on primate psychology (chimps). Humans still are not that evolved from our primate ancestors.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Psychology-Fasc...1317&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Forest-People-Colin-...1531&sr=8-1

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

Primitive tribalism fits well into the latest research on primate psychology (chimps). Humans still are not that evolved from our primate ancestors.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Psychology-Fasc...1317&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Forest-People-Colin-...1531&sr=8-1

ralis

 

Looks like those would be interesting reads.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

Looks like those would be interesting reads.

 

Peace & Love!

 

The latest research on primate psychology (chimps) and how it relates to humans evolution is very interesting. Will provide some links later. Anything by Wilhelm Reich is fascinating!

 

I am surprised Vajraji hasn't chimed in.

 

 

ralis

[goldisheavy]

Four main points are unique to all belief systems and religions. No exceptions.

 

1. Membership is important to one's sense of identity, with the belief that one's religion is inherently good.

2. In terms of beliefs and that could include race, all other tribes that differ, are inferior.

3. In general tribal dynamics are the same. This would be defined as belief systems etc. that create group

cohesiveness.

4. Rituals and charismatic leaders that produce trance in followers to maintain a certain order and group think.

5. Fear of disobedience and punishment for some higher purpose. Karma and sin.

Just a brief outline before bedtime. I know who is going to chime in on this one.

ralis

 

I think this is exactly right. Religion as a method of group cohesiveness and as a political institution has little or nothing to do with enlightenment, wisdom or spiritual development/growth or any such thing.

 

I think religion merely co-ops people's desire for spiritual growth and takes advantage of it. It's like if I know you are hungry and I know you're desperate, and I sell you some 5 day old left-overs for 100 dollars. I am just using your hunger to make myself richer. I think that's what religion does. It sells rotten trash as food to people who are starving. Not only is it rotten, but it's overpriced too.

 

And many religions are not happy to make claims of being better. For example, many Buddhists think that there is no way to become enlightened outside of Buddhism. So Buddhism is not just better. It's EXCLUSIVE. It's an exclusive club. Muslims, same thing. Christians, same thing. Many religious people and hence religions make claims of exclusivity

 

To me, making claims of exclusivity is more sinful and more evil than merely claiming you have a better or more efficient way to live. It's a whole 'nother level of "eeeeeevvil" (pinky finger applied to the corner of the mouth, a la mini-me). I like how various Buddhists sects rag out on each other. They say things like "well we can reach enlightenment in 7 life times but you guys have to wait 3 aeons..." That's pretty bad, but at least they admit the "inferior" Buddhist can reach enlightenment at all using his idiotic method. Many religions are not that nice to each other!

Edited October 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

We are still primitive and tribal in so many ways.

Where is human evolution?

Technological and intellectual advancement are obvious.

Emotional and psychological advancement?

I don't see much.

 

I agree.

 

What would it take for us to really make meaningful change in those areas?

It hasn't happened in human history so far...

 

As crazy as this might sound, I think humans are content with their condition. I don't think they will want to change voluntarily soon.

 

So if I have to think of some scenarios where people evolve emotionally, I think maybe a global catastrophe or even better, an impending Cosmic cataclysm will be necessary. Alternatively I can imagine some humans with a lot of stamina appear and begin to constantly ask questions, not allowing people to sleep comfortably. This is similar to repeatedly kicking a sleeping person to awaken them. The sleepers do not appreciate this, and consider it a hostile act, but it can succeed in awakening people. The trick is to cause enough discomfort to wake people up but not so much discomfort as to cause anger to clouds the process of awakening, thus nullifying any benefit that might have otherwise been derived. It's a fine line to walk. If you talk too sweetly, people just sleep even harder. If you are too mean, people just can't see beyond their anger. And being in the position of kicking people awake is not a welcome job.

 

Alternatively I think people may wake up naturally just like people wake up after 8 hours of sleep even without an alarm clock. Our emotional condition might be cyclical. In that case maybe we all become wise and enlightened in a billion years or two, whether we like it or not. I can't rule that out. So in that case the answer to "what does it take" becomes "gobs and gobs of time".

 

At some point the person may want to consider, "What's it worth being human?" Do I want to be human so much that I am willing to wait for humanity to awaken or to otherwise suffer as I either attempt to awaken them or pray for a Cosmic cataclysm (which is also suffering), or maybe I am too attached to the human condition and the problem is my own? Maybe instead of blaming humans I just need to abandon my own humanity. It's like if you're in a bar and they have bad music there, instead of blaming the bar, maybe it's time to find another bar. In that case, maybe being human sucks and maybe some of us need to stop being human?

Edited October 7, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

I think this is exactly right. Religion as a method of group cohesiveness and as a political institution has little or nothing to do with enlightenment, wisdom or spiritual development/growth or any such thing.

 

Well, Gold, I think that anyone who reads this post will understand how you feel about religions. Hehehe.

 

I actually not quite as hard on them as you are.

 

But I do agree with the base concept of your post.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

As crazy as this might sound, I think humans are content with their condition. I don't think they will want to change voluntarily soon.

 

Again I have to agree with you. Some birds are content living in a cage. Others want to be able to fly free. I generally use the concept of the herd (Nietzsche's stuff) when I talk about this subject.

 

Most humans are happy being a herd animal. Safety in numbers and all that stuff. Besides, if you have a leader you don't have to think so much.

 

I doubt that there will ever be an end to the human need for religion because there are just far too many people who just cannot find enough satisfaction from the physical world. They create in their minds unrealistic need then turn to religion to satisfy those needs.

 

Oh well.

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

Apart from religion - there are so many other opportunities for us to operate in a less than awake manner - the rewards are often pretty good!

 

Look at some business communities, academia, science, medicine, look at some national cultures. It is also very tempting to consider oneself as being "awake" in response to these things when all that has really happened is that you were rejected by the others and suffered and had to find a different way of going about things. Yes I speak from several personal experiences ;-)

 

I've also met people who were part of a tight religious group. They confessed that they didn't believe anything as much as they knew they would be ostracized if they questioned. They didn't know how they'd fare on the outside of the group either so they sucked it up and continued being a part of the thing.

[Marblehead]

All valid points, I think, Kate.

 

Deny your religion and you will loose most of your friends. Sad.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

Well, Gold, I think that anyone who reads this post will understand how you feel about religions. Hehehe.

 

Uh-huh... Can't say I am happy with religion.

 

I doubt that there will ever be an end to the human need for religion because there are just far too many people who just cannot find enough satisfaction from the physical world. They create in their minds unrealistic need then turn to religion to satisfy those needs.

 

Wait a second. I'm also not getting enough satisfaction from what you call "the physical world." But that doesn't make me want to get religious.

 

It is also very tempting to consider oneself as being "awake" in response to these things when all that has really happened is that you were rejected by the others and suffered and had to find a different way of going about things. Yes I speak from several personal experiences ;-)

 

Ah, the sour grapes syndrome, eh? ;-)

 

While I think that sour grapes is a possibility, I also think it is likely that the group rejects someone because they sense an incompatibility (either consciously or subconsciously). If the reason for this incompatibility is intentional on behalf of the rejected person, it's no longer "sour grapes", but more of a "I meant for this to happen" scenario.

 

I think the sour grapes claim is fair if the person got rejected, and realized that the incompatibilities were unintentional, tried to correct them, tried to get re-integrated back into the group, but still got rejected (why? groups are all too happy to have compatible followers! maybe the person wanted to be the leader of the group instead of just being a follower?), and then this person says, "Oh wait, those groups are bad anyway, blah."

 

So if you did not try to get re-integrated and did not try to sincerely correct whatever you thought was the cause of the rift and if you did not attempt to displace some leader of the group, I think you can honestly and non-egoistically say that it's not "sour grapes" at all, and that in your opinion, those groups really do suck, honestly.

Edited October 8, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

 

Wait a second. I'm also not getting enough satisfaction from what you call "the physical world." But that doesn't make me want to get religious.

 

Wel, I guess you are just going to have to find an alternative means of fulfilling your satisfaction, aren't you? Hehehe.

 

Some people look to religion, some people don't.

 

But now I will give a little support to religion in that for those people who feel incomplete and cannot find any other means of fulfillment then religion may, for them, fulfill that emptiness so for that individual religion is a good thing.

 

How does the saying go? Whatever gets you through your life.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

But now I will give a little support to religion in that for those people who feel incomplete and cannot find any other means of fulfillment then religion may, for them, fulfill that emptiness so for that individual religion is a good thing.

 

How does the saying go? Whatever gets you through your life.

 

Peace & Love!

 

You know if religious people focused more on developing themselves, I would be inclined to agree. Live and let live.

 

However, religious people spend a lot of their time fighting other people who are not doing anything to hurt them. For example, Muslims kill and fight gays. Christians like to fight with atheists. Jews tend to keep to themselves, unless they are in Israel, in which case they like to fight with Palestinians. Buddhists like to fight with each other.

 

If religious people had this mindset, "I think this path works for me, and I enjoy the results I am getting" we'd have fewer problems. Now if peaceful religious people are attacked without provocation, then they have a right to defend themselves. However often the religious people attack unprovoked. For example, did the Muslims in Malaysia really have to protest against Hindus with a bloody cow's head? That's a very offensive and violent method of protest!

 

This is why I cannot stand religion. Religion does not bring peace and it does not bring wisdom. Religion is the breeding ground of stupidity. Of course there are some exceptions to this, but largely religion is stupid and I wouldn't miss it if it was gone from the Earth. (all of it)

Edited October 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

Hi GiH,

 

Yep. There are always the 'buts' and 'howevers' in life.

 

I agree with what you said but I normally don't take that hard a line when I am speaking to the issue.

 

Religion "can" be used for the betterment of all peoples.

 

Peace & Love!