Fearlessness

[nac]

What does Taoism have to say on the subject of losing one's fear? I ask because it seems like an important concept in Buddhism.

[contrivedname!]

i may be tempted here to cite all of the talk by chuang tzu about accepting death as part of life (thereby removing the fear), or laotzu speaking of loss and gain as similar conditions; so i just did

[nac]

i may be tempted here to cite all of the talk by chuang tzu about accepting death as part of life (thereby removing the fear), or laotzu speaking of loss and gain as similar conditions; so i just did

Thanks, I was wondering if there's something more to it than accepting the harmony of nature. Because doesn't the harmony of nature sometimes cause or even require fear?

[contrivedname!]

yes, i think it is perfectly natural to have fear arise as an emotion. to fixate on any given emotion could be deemed unnatural or at least unhealthy. is fearlessness itself an emotion, or is it simply a lack of fear (ie a lack of that particular emotion)?

 

i guess i just answered your question with another

[nac]

yes, i think it is perfectly natural to have fear arise as an emotion. to fixate on any given emotion could be deemed unnatural or at least unhealthy. is fearlessness itself an emotion, or is it simply a lack of fear (ie a lack of that particular emotion)?

I'm not sure, but we Buddhists talk about "abandoning fear and delusion for the welfare of all sentient beings". I don't know we try to lose fear altogether in favor of rationality or what? Vajrahridaya?? Personally, I'm all in favor of losing fear altogether, natural or unnatural.

[dwai]

What does Taoism have to say on the subject of losing one's fear? I ask because it seems like an important concept in Buddhism.

 

Fear is a natural emotion. The key as Contrived pointed out is to not let it affect one's actions/decisions beyond a certain degree...

 

For eg: If you see a mad elephant charging towards you or a out of control truck, it is natural to be afraid and also a smart thing to jump out of the way.

 

This hypothetical situation might elicit different responses based on various combinations/permuations of the incident and environment surrounding it. For instance, replace yourself from being the experiencer to being an observer who sees a child in the path of a runaway truck or mad elephant.

 

What would your reaction be?

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

Fear has its roots in instinct. Back when man was in his early stages of evolution it was the fear instinct that kept man alive. We ran and hid from the man-eating monsters.

 

As we evolved and started using weapons that we made the fear instinct became less important.

 

Today it is generally considered an emotion. From Wiki:

 

Fear is an emotional response to a threat. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger.

 

Even today though, fear plays an important role for people in certain environments. Therefore, I wouldn't suggest a total abandonment of fear - that is, fearlessness.

 

But then, unrealistic fear will prevent one from living their life to the fullest so we do want to abandon unrealist fears.

 

My last unrealist fear that I got rid of was the deepest rooted of my fears - the fear of spiders. The fear was implanted when I was a little kid maybe 5 years old and it stayed with me for many years.

 

In Henricks' translation of the TTC the word 'fear' is used nine times.

 

In Watson's translation of the Chuang Tzu the word 'fear' is used twenty-seven times.

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

Thanks for explaining the Taoist take.

[Easy]

As we evolved and started using weapons that we made the fear instinct became less important.

 

 

 

That is unless one is wondering whether the guy out there is better with his knife or his 9mm or his bomber squadron than you are with yours.

 

Edited October 6, 2009 by Easy

[Marblehead]

That is unless one is wondering whether the guy out there is better with his knife or his 9mm or his bomber squadron than you are with yours.

 

 

The soldier is taught to overcome his/her fear as fear distracts from the mission.

 

But sure, there would be a natural fear if you had a weapon pointed at you and you were out of ammunition. The question would be "Will I be killed or taken prisoner?" Either alternative is fearful.

 

Peace & Love!

[Easy]

The soldier is taught to overcome his/her fear as fear distracts from the mission.

 

Cabeza Marmol (your handle in Castellano),

 

No way!

 

Fear gives one power. Check the adrenals. Or go below that and check the kundalini. I want you to read this essay (I apologize because it is a little long), but I spent 18 years in these situations and I learned that fear is not to be overcome, but to be utilized to the fullest. Or for a shorter take, I wrote the following on a forum post elsewhere years ago:

 

I am a sensualist and I like living deep in the world to which I trust my life. When a nondual experience arises out of an intense worldly situation I trust it is giving me the consciousness of the most profound trust of my essence and the essence of all that is around in the absolute harmony of time, place, action and identity. I know I have forgotten any number of these events but I can list a few: waling into a cold, storm torn sunset at what seemed like the end of the world, listening for the first time to the ballet music for Daphnis et Chloe, stalking elk, running damp streets at dawn in D.C., realizing a guiding, life-long truth when hitchhiking east out of Flagstaff at the age of 17, realizing the liberating value of human insignificance while driving down a back road in southeast Wyoming, waiting for a gunfight, doing shamanic style energy healing, racing horses, racing cars, driving a much too tiny boat in profoundly bad water when one second finds me in abject terror of a standing wave I can't see around, I can't see over because I can see nothing but all that thick brown water and dirty white foam curing back down upon me...but the next second I am assured that I am immortal and that mistakes are impossible, I can read every molecule of water in that wave, time stands still and allows me to do everything I need to do with no effort at all because the world has changed.

 

Fear is not to be overcome but pushed and pushed into kundalini ecstasy. If one can't learn what the Berserkers knew what is the point of living?

[NeiChuan]

Cabeza Marmol (your handle in Castellano),

 

No way!

 

Fear gives one power. Check the adrenals. Or go below that and check the kundalini. I want you to read this essay (I apologize because it is a little long), but I spent 18 years in these situations and I learned that fear is not to be overcome, but to be utilized to the fullest. Or for a shorter take, I wrote the following on a forum post elsewhere years ago:

 

I am a sensualist and I like living deep in the world to which I trust my life. When a nondual experience arises out of an intense worldly situation I trust it is giving me the consciousness of the most profound trust of my essence and the essence of all that is around in the absolute harmony of time, place, action and identity. I know I have forgotten any number of these events but I can list a few: waling into a cold, storm torn sunset at what seemed like the end of the world, listening for the first time to the ballet music for Daphnis et Chloe, stalking elk, running damp streets at dawn in D.C., realizing a guiding, life-long truth when hitchhiking east out of Flagstaff at the age of 17, realizing the liberating value of human insignificance while driving down a back road in southeast Wyoming, waiting for a gunfight, doing shamanic style energy healing, racing horses, racing cars, driving a much too tiny boat in profoundly bad water when one second finds me in abject terror of a standing wave I can't see around, I can't see over because I can see nothing but all that thick brown water and dirty white foam curing back down upon me...but the next second I am assured that I am immortal and that mistakes are impossible, I can read every molecule of water in that wave, time stands still and allows me to do everything I need to do with no effort at all because the world has changed.

 

Fear is not to be overcome but pushed and pushed into kundalini ecstasy. If one can't learn what the Berserkers knew what is the point of living?

 

That was the point I was going to bring.. nice post.

Embracism is much stronger then escapism (if embracism is a word). Well you have to think above the emotional level.. Only way you can do that is to master your emotions.. How do you do that if you've stopped experiencing one all together? or to the least amount possible?

[Marblehead]

Hi Easy,

 

Yep. That is the standard counter-point in a discussion concerning how to deal with one's fears. Of course, I prefer what I presented but that should have been obvious.

 

And so, my easy friend, as I made a promise that I would not engage in any more arguements on this forum I must therefore admit that the process you spoke of is valid and I believe does in fact result in what you described.

 

But at the same time I will suggest that what I proposed will allow one to continue to think rationally and thereby avoid mistakes due to over-reacting to the situation.

 

My way has always served me well so I don't expect to be changing any time soon.

 

Peace & Love!

[Easy]

 

But at the same time I will suggest that what I proposed will allow one to continue to think rationally and thereby avoid mistakes due to over-reacting to the situation.

 

My way has always served me well so I don't expect to be changing any time soon.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Indeed! Whatever gets you closer to what it is you want. A bow to you. A bow to the kundalini.

[JustARandomPanda]

Well hell....looks like I am posting still on the main boards but what-the-hell-ever....

 

I made an interesting discovery about Fear and Cowardice tonight during my Chi exercises.

 

I posted about it in my Personal Practice Log.

[Marblehead]

Indeed! Whatever gets you closer to what it is you want. A bow to you. A bow to the kundalini.

 

Bows in respect in return.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Well hell....looks like I am posting still on the main boards but what-the-hell-ever....

 

 

Hi Serene,

 

Excellent observation.

 

For me fear and cowardice are two different 'emotions'.

 

Fear is not bad in and of itself. It causes us to focus our attention on a particular condition. The key is in understanding our fear so that we can use it as an asset. After a while, when our fears are fully understood they become alert notices for us and they prepare us to make any necessary adjustment to our thoughts or actions.

 

Cowardice is a horse of a different color. In dualistic thinking it is the opposite of bravery. No wars were ever won through cowardice. No changes in our life will ever happen by giving in to the emotion of cowardice.

 

Yes, there was something I read recently concerning the evolution of why people generally select a wall location when at a restaurant. (Fear that their food will be stolen.)

 

Hehehe. Hey! You are a natural woman. How could you remain silent for very long?

 

Peace & Love!

[exorcist_1699]

Fearlessness is a rare quality in our temperament that not so many people possess . Undoubtedly , it is something moral . That is , it belongs to the arena of Te . As Tao and Te are just two faces of the same coin, of course , Taoism handles the issue well , maybe better than the Buddhist .

 

 

We fear because we are or will be in danger . We fear of getting old, hurt, sick and killed by aging, diseases and all other unexpected accidents around us . Yet , with ourselves equipped with pre-heavenly qi, ie, Tao , what fears we still have?

 

Besides, we fear because we worry whether our close friends, relatives or country will get in troubles in accidents or disasters ; there are so many potential dangers and uncertainties in this world . We doubt whether we get enough moral courage to stand out , to give our hands when others are in danger .

 

Fear, should not be something we ignore, evade , negate but should be the stuff we digest so that our qi, our spirit will grow and expand after having it assimilated . Without fear being got rid of , no moral actions are likely be possible for we are afraid of being criticized , being hurt . This is part of the reason why Tao is accomplished by Te. Hardly should we refine our qi in deep mountains , escaping from the crowd , but among the crowd , among the cruelty of this world . The more moral actions we took , the more danger and difficulties we overcame, the more immense the qi we expanded and upgraded .

Edited October 8, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Fearlessness is a rare quality in our temperament ...

 

What a lovely post!!! Thanks for sharing. (Very Taoist, I will add.)

 

Peace & Love!

[abramelin]

Great topic!

 

There seems to be an immense value of being able to let go of ones irrational fears, to be able to go out of ones "comfort zone".

 

Could fear also be described as a lack of trust? A lack of trust in oneself and of the tao/universe & beyond.

 

And how do one push oneself beyond the comfort zone?

 

// John

[Marblehead]

 

Could fear also be described as a lack of trust? A lack of trust in oneself and of the tao/universe & beyond.

 

And how do one push oneself beyond the comfort zone?

 

// John

 

Good questions. To the first I would say yes. Not in all cases but im many, I am sure.

 

Trust, even trust in one's self, is something that is earned over time. I don't think there is any shortcut in this regard.

 

So we test our limits. The next time we push just a little bit harder. A little bit each time so not to become discouraged by failure. Failure is a nasty demon. We need to sometimes totally ignore our failures and back up and try again. Over time we will realize our maximum capabilities and capacities so that we can go forward witout any fears. And even then, we can expand our capacities and capabilities in some areas of our life if we devote enough training and practice to the effort.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Only the truly brave can admit to being fearful.

 

[Marblehead]

Only the truly brave can admit to being fearful.

 

 

Although that is a valid generalized statement there are those who have learned how to overcome fear just as there are those who have learned how to overcome suffering.

 

Peace & Love!