Going Theravadin Taoist-style!

[voidisyinyang]

Answering a question from a reader at http://breakingopenthehead.com in glorious Phoenix Az.

 

Yeah Isaiah is correct, as usual. Roy I appreciate your question as I know a lot of people who smoke but had never heard of this reaction. After googling it appears to be very common and there's been academic research into heart tarchydia from THC. The street response is to make sure you use a vapor instead of direct smoke since it's the smoke itself that causes the heart to race. And if vapor doesn't work then you have to eat the stuff. Apparently some people are more sensitive to the smoke than others -- but of course I provide no legal advice. haha.

 

There's also a study on THC increasing violence -- I had not heard of this either -- but I guess since THC increases dopamine then it should increase violence. This is ironic given the whole peace hippy schtick -- but maybe is the real secret behind the "Manson" phenomenon -- the "Unicorn" -- Ira Einhorn or whomever who did the girlfriend murder in Philly -- as a peace-nik -- the violence in Jamaica, etc.

 

On the other hand there's studies saying THC reverses the ethanol damage from alcohol -- too bad both booze and pot cause violence from the dopamine rush. Kind of like the sugar rush excuse for killing gays -- well yes it was a DOPAMINE "crime of passion" -- .

 

Do two wrongs make a right? Borax counteracts fluoride poisoning -- chelates it -- but both are poisons as well yet both kill anaerobic bacteria.

 

Anyway in the past week I've biked another 100 miles. I first went to stay in a Cambodian monastery but I had dumpster-dived all this shit food -- pastries and meat. Since my body turns shit into light energy for healing -- shit to gold -- just like the latest biofuel alchemy of electricty from manure -- well the cambodian temple was like:

 

Holy Crap!

 

So then I fasted and fasted and went to the Burmese monastery. I even shaved my head! I was in full-lotus and read tons of their books on vipassana. I worked with the Burmese to do sanctions against the military regime and my friend now funds and organizes the monastery. But they got mad at me for fasting --saying it wasn't Buddhism - and that I practiced full-lotus yoga while the vipassana is from just

 

"mind yoga"

 

which doesn't really sublimate the sex energy.

 

As I studied more of the Theravada Buddhism texts it kept saying that the final climax of practice was for the monk to do a 7 day samadhi meditation -- no food for 7 days. Then the monk achieves

 

CESSATION

 

Nirvana.

 

It describes all the details - first there is heat, bliss and trembling. Yep. Then there is light and then there is

 

Direct Knowledge.

 

That's the fifth Jhana -- the fifth level of samadhi.

 

I had that as well direct knowledge -- and it says this power does not last but serves the purpose of achieving the fruit.

 

The path in Buddhism must be analysis of the fruit or results -- analysis means balancing the power with morality in the community. The Buddhist texts then say that during this 7 day period of achieving nirvana if the Buddhist community -- the monks or lay persons -- call on the meditator to come back to the monastery for any reason he must do so.

 

After the 7 day nirvana achievement of cessation the monk must just serve the community no matter what. He may never be able to do the nirvana training again. But if he can do the nirvana training again then the results of the direct power will increase with more analysis or vipassana insight -- this is the "light" training -- moving the light around in the body and for healing others.

 

It's what Chunyi Lin and Jim Nance do -- it's the work of the very advanced meditators. This training is also the goal of the forest monks at the most beautiful monastery in the world --

 

http://www.paaukforestmonastery.org/aboutUs.htm

[ZenStatic]

Huh? I must admit to being very confused by this post.

[voidisyinyang]

What's your chant mean -- the OM ? I can google it I guess and you can google me! haha. Here's a recent indepth interview about my energy cultivation training....

 

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/wordpres...rest-qigong.pdf

 

Ah White Tara Tibetan chant. Yeah there's tons of chanting in the Theravada meditation -- and like in Mahayana the focus is on scholarly training for several years until you get a Ph.D. in the philosophy. That's cool but I've spent the last 10 years doing philosophy training and studied philosophy since 1980s then I did the 3 month "gong" -- celibacy solitude practice, several hours a day with transmissions from Chunyi Lin, ending in the 8 day fast on just half glass of water.

 

I looked into Nalanda Monastery -- in France -- Tibetan Gelupa Mahamudra. THREE MEALS A DAY and it costs $300 a month. I was told that if I flew there and I passed the interviews then I might get a foundation scholarship. I said -- it would take all my savings to just get there and if I eat 3 meals a day I smell like shit! haha.

 

Chunyi Lin fasts one day a week and eats one little meal a day the rest of the week -- very strict asceticism because he's healing so much. And he knows the tantric secret of free energy instead of food. Mantak Chia also teaches this tantric secret.

 

Even in Tibet the advanced meditators, like in Ladakh, are the ones who go beyond the monastery -- to the caves -- and that's what Chunyi Lin did. I think he did his cave training with this dude:

 

http://www.qigongmaster.com/articles2.htm

 

One month in a cave in full-lotus -- no intake of water, food and no sleep.

Edited October 6, 2009 by drewhempel

[Kameel]

I just finished reading the interview. Great read. Love your honesty and thanks for making it...shall we say, easier to understand. BTW, a great version of the aforementioned mantra can be heard on Kailash's CD Following Sound into Silence.

"AUM. Homage to Tara, swift heroine,

whose mantra Tutare dispells all fear,

and Ture, which fulfills all needs."

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks -- here's my latest analysis about Theravada and Taoism:

 

http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com

 

Here's the teditious minutiae of the Pa-Auk practice by the master. What's fascinating about this are the following claims:

 

1) The "four elements" meditation does not cure physical ailments and the "four elements" mediation also does not produce supramundane samdhi (jhana concentration) because it still relies on form.

 

2) That the visualization practice to create strong brilliant light will at first be white but then will get brighter with more practice. But that there should be NO SENSUAL DESIRE and that any object focused on should be the SAME SEX as the meditator (or else bad conceptual attachment can occur to WIFE, HUSBAND, etc.).

 

3) On Body Position it's recommended that "sitting posture" is best but a meditator can use a stool or chair if needed. When I watched the youtube Pa-Auk video I realized that these so-called Nibbana experts were not even sitting in full-lotus! Some sat in full-lotus but most still sat in "Burmese Style" or just legs crossed or half-lotus, etc.

 

4) On the application form for taking the meditation retreat with the Pa-Auk Master it is asked if you will be doing anything that will WEAKEN your meditation and gives the example of FASTING.

 

When we take these 4 elements into consideration we can easily see that Buddhism is a mind yoga that does not rely on jing. Alchemy "starts and ends with jing" -- through full-lotus transmutation of sex energy. Consider Chan Master Nan, Huai-chin who again emphasizes that in Buddhism there is an epidemic of mind yoga not transforming the body and that true practice relies on full-body orgasm. The "4 elements" are the body consciousness in Buddhism and must be transformed through full-lotus, which then cures physical sickness and also deepens the samadhi focus.

 

Finally Pa-Auk master says that a Buddhist "Arhant" is in nirvana except when sleeping and thinking about concepts. This is hilarious since Master Nan, Huai-chin gives numerous stories (as does Charles Luk) of full-lotus Buddhist masters in China who squabble over the snoring or other sounds heard at night -- even though the person is sleeping. In other words awareness transcends sleep -- like Christine Donnell's http://transcendentdreaming.com -- true samadhi sleep enables awareness of perception while still in deep sleep. This is the real meaning of turiya.

 

It is true that in the real formless realm of nibbana (nirvana) -- the real pure consciousness of turiya -- there is no self conceptual awareness so that the direct knowledge of miracles (creating another physical body as the most advanced but including everything else from telepathy to telekinesis) occurs

 

WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OR INSIGHT AWARENESS of the yogi -- the book "NOTHING EVER HAPPENS: Biography of H.W.L. Poonja" by David Godman is the best example of this (3 vols. published in 1998 or so). Poonja being the master lineage of Ramana Maharshi the mind yoga advaita master.

 

It is true that wrongly conceptual attachment to form of the opposite sex will limit the samadhi concentration -- the creation of astral body chi -- to the emphasis on jing or only electrochemical energy (not the shen of healing light spiritual energy -- the holographic laser healing of a true qigong master).

 

But again the "O at a D" phenomenon where there is a transmission of chi through electromagnetic fields out of the pineal gland, via full-lotus, and the intake of jing from people around you -- is the secret to healing the body, to living without food (fasting but with sex energy as the "stem-cell" alchemy energy).

 

This jing as the foundation for practice is lost in mind yoga Buddhism -- Theravada -- which blatantly is an extension of the Brahmin mind yoga advaita tradition. In fact it is claimed that Burmans of Burma is derived from Brahmins of India.

 

Advaita Vedanta relies on total solitude from the opposite sex. A Brahmin priest had to do a 3 day purification even if he had visual contact with a female.

 

But even in true tantra, of the Tibetan tradition, it's been critiqued -- argued -- that there is an objectification of the female as a source of life-force energy. That the female, in the end, is also an object of physical control. That tantra tradition (with the sacred king and queen and the goddess as the pre-puberty female as the best life-force source) is really still

 

misogynist.

 

That the "collecting of the N/um of young maidens" in the Bushmen tradition -- the original yoga tradition of alchemy relying on jing is somehow still

 

patriarchial

 

and that the real master healers -- the astral light shape-shifting Bushmen -- were FEARED by the rest of the Bushmen culture. The real first alchemists were those who separated from the community on Bushmen and would travel into lions and terrorize the Bushmen if need be. Just as the Jaguar "evil" shamans of Latin America are known to do or similarly the "spirit poison arrows" of the Dravidian Aborigine alchemy in Australia.

 

And so again the original healing tradition relies on light and spirit vision -- holographic laser-love -- but also is monitored and moderated by the females so that there is not a focus on astral travel and the deeper jing body transformations (shape-shifting). The females will literally throw water on the male healers to stop this from happening. Cold water kills the chi -- and drinking ice water can literally kill the alchemist. Master Ni, Huang-chi talks about this happening after a Tai-Chi contest when the winner, in the aftermath celebration, felt obligated by the crowd to drink an ice cold coke -- and he died from it!

 

Similarly other masters feel obligated to eat the sacred food offering in India from their students - food that is too rich: fruit, sugar, etc. And so it is in Buddhism where the monks are allowed to drink sugar as medicine! Fruit drink and sugar are regularly consumed even though diabetes may develop. The Theravada monks I met had diabetes!

 

So the answer is who is in control? The females who tantrically feed the monks on alms-round, giving the monks sugar and fruit that is too unhealthy -- the females who require the monks and yogis to drink cold water -- or just require that the monks and yogis "dialog" -- talk with them to keep the monks and yogis stuck in the conceptual realm away from the formless realm that creates laser holographic spirit light or shen?

 

The tradition in China on Taoist alchemy laser-holographic energy masters actually relied on a severe patriarchial structure, just like the yoga tradition in India. The women in China were not allowed to leave their houses except under special circumstances. The women were not allowed to SPEAK in public around other men -- unless it was just to serve the men. Then women were literally enslaved physically with having their feet bound and the feet chakras -- just as in Tantra of Western Asia -- were the most powerful "jing" energy points. Women could go bare-chested in public but DON'T POINT YOUR FEET AT THE ENERGY MASTER! haha. As if the female foot could suck off the master's energy! And it could! Or if you are going to "point" your feet at the master -- then the feet should be broken and bent back to signify and emphasize the

 

"tightness" of the lotus -- the sex organ of the female.

 

In fact in the Bushmen healing tradition the males would not become real master laser holographic healers until the age of 40. And this was after decades of weekly trance dance healings and fasting while hunting -- a severe famine diet lifestyle with meat eaten only in the morning and in small amounts. 80% of the diet was greens and nuts. The women controlled the land and the males had to move in with the female's family -- a true matrifocal lineage, in exact opposite of the chimpanzee-modern human relied on

 

"female exogamy."

 

It's true that bonobo females go off on their own to form a new family but when they do so there is a "harem" of males organized to serve that new female mother. In other words, like in cultures with limited land space -- the sex culture is more than one male serves one female. And this is the secret to the qigong teaching and Indian tantric tradition of the

 

alchemist "householder" healer.

 

In fact in South India tantra tradition the female's brother has more power than the husband of the female. The female's brother makes sure that the female's husband treats the female well -- and thereby the alchemist family healer

 

"feeds" of the sex energy of the female in the family while the

 

female controls the physical material conditions of the male in terms of limiting the type of resources.

 

For example in the Bushmen culture the young females are NOT allowed to eat the fatty nuts which otherwise are the sustenance of the Bushmen diet. Why? Because then they would be over-compensating their stronger life-force sex energy with the physical life-force energy from food.

 

Again in exact contrast the males are feed too rich food, impure food, like meat and sugar (honey) and fruit and the males are made to drink cold water to make sure that the males do not develop TOO strong electromagnetic laser-holographic powers.

Edited October 7, 2009 by drewhempel

[gendao]

Thanks -- here's my latest analysis about Theravada and Taoism:

 

http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com

 

Here's the teditious minutiae of the Pa-Auk practice by the master. What's fascinating about this are the following claims:

 

1) The "four elements" meditation does not cure physical ailments and the "four elements" mediation also does not produce supramundane samdhi (jhana concentration) because it still relies on form.

 

2) That the visualization practice to create strong brilliant light will at first be white but then will get brighter with more practice. But that there should be NO SENSUAL DESIRE and that any object focused on should be the SAME SEX as the meditator (or else bad conceptual attachment can occur to WIFE, HUSBAND, etc.).

 

3) On Body Position it's recommended that "sitting posture" is best but a meditator can use a stool or chair if needed. When I watched the youtube Pa-Auk video I realized that these so-called Nibbana experts were not even sitting in full-lotus! Some sat in full-lotus but most still sat in "Burmese Style" or just legs crossed or half-lotus, etc.

 

4) On the application form for taking the meditation retreat with the Pa-Auk Master it is asked if you will be doing anything that will WEAKEN your meditation and gives the example of FASTING.

 

When we take these 4 elements into consideration we can easily see that Buddhism is a mind yoga that does not rely on jing. Alchemy "starts and ends with jing" -- through full-lotus transmutation of sex energy. Consider Chan Master Nan, Huai-chin who again emphasizes that in Buddhism there is an epidemic of mind yoga not transforming the body and that true practice relies on full-body orgasm. The "4 elements" are the body consciousness in Buddhism and must be transformed through full-lotus, which then cures physical sickness and also deepens the samadhi focus.

 

Finally Pa-Auk master says that a Buddhist "Arhant" is in nirvana except when sleeping and thinking about concepts. This is hilarious since Master Nan, Huai-chin gives numerous stories (as does Charles Luk) of full-lotus Buddhist masters in China who squabble over the snoring or other sounds heard at night -- even though the person is sleeping. In other words awareness transcends sleep -- like Christine Donnell's http://transcendentdreaming.com -- true samadhi sleep enables awareness of perception while still in deep sleep. This is the real meaning of turiya.

 

It is true that in the real formless realm of nibbana (nirvana) -- the real pure consciousness of turiya -- there is no self conceptual awareness so that the direct knowledge of miracles (creating another physical body as the most advanced but including everything else from telepathy to telekinesis) occurs

 

WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OR INSIGHT AWARENESS of the yogi -- the book "NOTHING EVER HAPPENS: Biography of H.W.L. Poonja" by David Godman is the best example of this (3 vols. published in 1998 or so). Poonja being the master lineage of Ramana Maharshi the mind yoga advaita master.

 

It is true that wrongly conceptual attachment to form of the opposite sex will limit the samadhi concentration -- the creation of astral body chi -- to the emphasis on jing or only electrochemical energy (not the shen of healing light spiritual energy -- the holographic laser healing of a true qigong master).

 

But again the "O at a D" phenomenon where there is a transmission of chi through electromagnetic fields out of the pineal gland, via full-lotus, and the intake of jing from people around you -- is the secret to healing the body, to living without food (fasting but with sex energy as the "stem-cell" alchemy energy).

 

This jing as the foundation for practice is lost in mind yoga Buddhism -- Theravada -- which blatantly is an extension of the Brahmin mind yoga advaita tradition. In fact it is claimed that Burmans of Burma is derived from Brahmins of India.

 

Advaita Vedanta relies on total solitude from the opposite sex. A Brahmin priest had to do a 3 day purification even if he had visual contact with a female.

 

But even in true tantra, of the Tibetan tradition, it's been critiqued -- argued -- that there is an objectification of the female as a source of life-force energy. That the female, in the end, is also an object of physical control. That tantra tradition (with the sacred king and queen and the goddess as the pre-puberty female as the best life-force source) is really still

 

misogynist.

 

That the "collecting of the N/um of young maidens" in the Bushmen tradition -- the original yoga tradition of alchemy relying on jing is somehow still

 

patriarchial

 

and that the real master healers -- the astral light shape-shifting Bushmen -- were FEARED by the rest of the Bushmen culture. The real first alchemists were those who separated from the community on Bushmen and would travel into lions and terrorize the Bushmen if need be. Just as the Jaguar "evil" shamans of Latin America are known to do or similarly the "spirit poison arrows" of the Dravidian Aborigine alchemy in Australia.

 

And so again the original healing tradition relies on light and spirit vision -- holographic laser-love -- but also is monitored and moderated by the females so that there is not a focus on astral travel and the deeper jing body transformations (shape-shifting). The females will literally throw water on the male healers to stop this from happening. Cold water kills the chi -- and drinking ice water can literally kill the alchemist. Master Ni, Huang-chi talks about this happening after a Tai-Chi contest when the winner, in the aftermath celebration, felt obligated by the crowd to drink an ice cold coke -- and he died from it!

 

Similarly other masters feel obligated to eat the sacred food offering in India from their students - food that is too rich: fruit, sugar, etc. And so it is in Buddhism where the monks are allowed to drink sugar as medicine! Fruit drink and sugar are regularly consumed even though diabetes may develop. The Theravada monks I met had diabetes!

 

So the answer is who is in control? The females who tantrically feed the monks on alms-round, giving the monks sugar and fruit that is too unhealthy -- the females who require the monks and yogis to drink cold water -- or just require that the monks and yogis "dialog" -- talk with them to keep the monks and yogis stuck in the conceptual realm away from the formless realm that creates laser holographic spirit light or shen?

 

The tradition in China on Taoist alchemy laser-holographic energy masters actually relied on a severe patriarchial structure, just like the yoga tradition in India. The women in China were not allowed to leave their houses except under special circumstances. The women were not allowed to SPEAK in public around other men -- unless it was just to serve the men. Then women were literally enslaved physically with having their feet bound and the feet chakras -- just as in Tantra of Western Asia -- were the most powerful "jing" energy points. Women could go bare-chested in public but DON'T POINT YOUR FEET AT THE ENERGY MASTER! haha. As if the female foot could suck off the master's energy! And it could! Or if you are going to "point" your feet at the master -- then the feet should be broken and bent back to signify and emphasize the

 

"tightness" of the lotus -- the sex organ of the female.

 

In fact in the Bushmen healing tradition the males would not become real master laser holographic healers until the age of 40. And this was after decades of weekly trance dance healings and fasting while hunting -- a severe famine diet lifestyle with meat eaten only in the morning and in small amounts. 80% of the diet was greens and nuts. The women controlled the land and the males had to move in with the female's family -- a true matrifocal lineage, in exact opposite of the chimpanzee-modern human relied on

 

"female exogamy."

 

It's true that bonobo females go off on their own to form a new family but when they do so there is a "harem" of males organized to serve that new female mother. In other words, like in cultures with limited land space -- the sex culture is more than one male serves one female. And this is the secret to the qigong teaching and Indian tantric tradition of the

 

alchemist "householder" healer.

 

In fact in South India tantra tradition the female's brother has more power than the husband of the female. The female's brother makes sure that the female's husband treats the female well -- and thereby the alchemist family healer

 

"feeds" of the sex energy of the female in the family while the

 

female controls the physical material conditions of the male in terms of limiting the type of resources.

 

For example in the Bushmen culture the young females are NOT allowed to eat the fatty nuts which otherwise are the sustenance of the Bushmen diet. Why? Because then they would be over-compensating their stronger life-force sex energy with the physical life-force energy from food.

 

Again in exact contrast the males are feed too rich food, impure food, like meat and sugar (honey) and fruit and the males are made to drink cold water to make sure that the males do not develop TOO strong electromagnetic laser-holographic powers.

Wow, nice article!

 

One small cultural correction though - foot-binding was most likely first started by Tang Dynasty Chinese courtesans in imitation of foreign, Western proto-"ballet" dancers wearing "pointe" foot-bindings (so they could dance on their toes). It later spread down to the lower classes and took to an extreme, but was never enforced by men. It was simply another act of female vanity for sexual self-exploitation & personal empowerment. Just like corsets, stilettos, boob jobs & make-up...all voluntary weapons in our sexual arms race.

[Sunya]

It is true that in the real formless realm of nibbana (nirvana) -- the real pure consciousness of turiya -- there is no self conceptual awareness so that the direct knowledge of miracles (creating another physical body as the most advanced but including everything else from telepathy to telekinesis) occurs

 

This jing as the foundation for practice is lost in mind yoga Buddhism -- Theravada -- which blatantly is an extension of the Brahmin mind yoga advaita tradition. In fact it is claimed that Burmans of Burma is derived from Brahmins of India.

 

But even in true tantra, of the Tibetan tradition, it's been critiqued -- argued -- that there is an objectification of the female as a source of life-force energy. That the female, in the end, is also an object of physical control. That tantra tradition (with the sacred king and queen and the goddess as the pre-puberty female as the best life-force source) is really still misogynist.

 

Interesting post Drew, but the quotes I highlighted above are misrepresentations of Buddhism; you need more study if you're going to try to draw such a broad comparison between the two traditions. firstly, a historical and scriptural study if you want to somehow prove that Buddhism is an extension of 'Advaita' (when Advaita school didn't even exist until the 8th century AD) secondly you'll need to speak with more Buddhist practitioners and do a more broad analysis of the goals of Buddhism if you want to see whether or not the goal of Buddhism is the 'real pure formless realm of pure consciousness (which it's not) and also whether or not 'full body orgasms' even matter to Buddhists (they don't, this has nothing to do with Buddhist enlightenment). Also a deeper historical study would be required if you want to see whether it's true or not that Tibetans objectify females as the "best life-force source" (this is a complete misrepresentation of Tantra as there is no life force 'source', diety is a representation of your true nature)

[voidisyinyang]

20 minutes of full-lotus equals 4 hours of any other type of meditation according to Chunyi Lin http://springforestqigong.com My writing is infinitely in error as words are limited in form kind of like chess or other closed-parameter systems. haha.

 

Still what books do you recommend in particular? What information do YOU have for me besides just stating what I need to do from your perspective. There's infinite minutiae of scholarly debate about these issues -- what is Advaita vs. Buddhism or what Buddhists "really" think, etc. I mean seriously you can't take all that clap-trap seriously can you? haha.

 

I was speaking from my EXPERIENCE in a monastery with details about fasting and full-lotus practice and yes I read books there published by other monks from other Theravada monasteries. On Mahayana -- well some Theravada dismiss it, others don't -- it's all so emotionally sophmoric in my opinion. Male mental masturbation as sword-fighting.

 

Sit in full-lotus. The simplest is the most powerful. Words are fun but self-contradictory -- ideology is meant to be "emptied out" through paradoxes and puns and deeper critical investigation. But then full-lotus is TOO powerful for modern society spiritual exorcism. I've cut my full-lotus down to minimal practice and am working more on nutrition and feng shui environment at the moment. Full-lotus empties out the emotional blockages of the conceptual mind -- and that's the first main blockage.

 

I agree with what you say and also know of people who would want to argue with what you say based on their academic research -- it's all fun to me.

 

Is Master Nan, Huai-chin not a real Buddhist? I don't know -- according to some maybe -- but I highly recommend his books. Whether he states that full body internal orgasm is part of enlightenment in Buddhism -- I'm sure that's a life-time argument right there about the translation, the syntax, the grammar, the intention, the blah blah blah.

 

On Tibetan tantra I recommend "Dakini's Warm Breath" by a Naropa female Buddhist tantra professor. So that right there should demonstrate I'm not dismissing it as misogyny but there is also an emphasize on physical sex practice as well. I agree with you that physical sex tantra is not "real" tantra if that's how you want to put it (probably not) -- but again this Buddhist Professor seems to think otherwise. There's at least one western female who has been turned off by their Tibetan lama secretly wanting to get it on for spiritual advancement. haha.

 

Now it's your turn -- point me to some details -- links -- because "historical analysis" is kind of a broad recommendation! haha. And I recommend that you contradict yourself more so that we can enjoy the emptiness of the 6th level of consciousness.

[voidisyinyang]

Interesting post Drew, but the quotes I highlighted above are misrepresentations of Buddhism; you need more study if you're going to try to draw such a broad comparison between the two traditions. firstly, a historical and scriptural study if you want to somehow prove that Buddhism is an extension of 'Advaita' (when Advaita school didn't even exist until the 8th century AD)

 

http://www.spiritual-minds.com/articles/advaita.htm According to this link Advaita existed in the Vedas -- again is it right or WRONG -- do I NEED to know the objective HIS-STORY -- no. But there are plenty of positions for male mental masturbation.

 

 

 

secondly you'll need to speak with more Buddhist practitioners and do a more broad analysis of the goals of Buddhism if you want to see whether or not the goal of Buddhism is the 'real pure formless realm of pure consciousness (which it's not)

 

It's implied that I stated the GOAL of Buddhism is pure empty awareness. Again I was speaking from experience of "achievement of cessation" as nirvana. It's not the GOAL -- it's a stage of the stream-enterer (if you follow the PATH of Buddhism which I have not) -- but that's from the Theravada perspective and not necessarily the Mahayana. Again there's a zillion conceptual angles for male sword-fighting. The concept of a goal in Buddhism is itself a lifelong debate.

 

and also whether or not 'full body orgasms' even matter to Buddhists (they don't, this has nothing to do with Buddhist enlightenment).

 

As I stated Buddhist Ch'an Master who has taken monk vows details the full body orgasm. Does it have "nothing to do with Buddhist enlightenment"? I don't know -- depends how you define "enlightenment" -- but thanks for setting up a real quagmire there! haha.

 

Also a deeper historical study would be required if you want to see whether it's true or not that Tibetans objectify females as the "best life-force source" (this is a complete misrepresentation of Tantra as there is no life force 'source', diety is a representation of your true nature)

 

I think I've addressed this already -- the book "Dakini's Warm Breath" is on Tibetan tantra as physical sex -- I realize you are referring to the "source" as not being life-force energy but something else while diety is a "representation" of true nature -- as source? Who knows? Again thanks for the mental masturbatory sword-fighting and we can have fun redefining semantics, etc. but I'm sure you have a fine conceptual understanding of Buddhism from

 

MY NEED

 

to do what you have stated.

 

Here's the Buddhist tantra professor I referred to -- and she writes about Buddhism as Advaita:

 

Meeting the Great Bliss Queen:

Buddhists, Feminists and the Art of the Self

By Anne Carolyn Klein

 

Nondualism...is reified and practiced in the Bliss Queen ritual

 

Philosophy East & West

Vol. 46 No.2

Apr 1996

Pp.295-296

Copyright by University of Hawaii Press

this article appears at

http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/...klein.htm.(link may no longer be working.)

 

Meeting the Great Bliss Queen is a significant contribution to the field of Buddhist studies and offers critical insights into the growing dialogue between Buddhist and Western feminists struggling to reenvision subjectivity. Yeshey Tsogyel, a semimythological figure from Tibetan history, becomes the metaphorical Great Bliss Queen, an enlightened embodiment of wisdom and compassion. Klein presents her as a potential bridge between two seemingly antithetical philosophical positions on subjectivity: essentialism (women are their feminine essence, however broadly or narrowly defined)and constructionism (women become women as a result of their cultural and political contexts).

 

Klein acknowledges that Buddhism may not and probably should not be asked to provide answers to thorny political questions, especially in this nascent stage of development in the West when it is still poorly interpreted and frequently misunderstood. What Klein does offer is a sketch of a possible path to connect these diverse philosophical and cultural contexts of Buddhist philosophy and practice and Western and postmodern feminist positions on subjectivity. She begins by detailing the very different understandings of the individual and the self acted upon by Westerners as inheritors of the Enlightenment tradition and by Tibetan Buddhists (specifically the Geluk and Nyingma traditions most closely associated with the Bliss Queen sotras and practices) with whom she has studied and practiced. Westerners coming to Buddhist practice have an innate understanding of the individual as a unique, self-contained unit, the result of

specific personal choices and preferences. Tibetans (and other Asian Buddhists)have an understanding of the self that is part of more extensive social ties to family, community, village, and the cosmos. This interpretation of the self, as nondualistically conceived, offers a middle path between essentialism and constructionism. Klein argues that rather than see these positions as dualistically opposed to one another, Buddhism offers a way to understand them as mutually dependent, dependently arising.

 

Nondualism--ontological nondualism (the mutual dependence of conventional reality on its own emptiness) , cognitive nondualism (the mutual dependence of subject and object), and evolutionary nondualism (the mutual dependence of the enlightened and unenlightened mind)--is reified and practiced in the Bliss Queen ritual. The philosophical non-dualism embodied by the Bliss Queen makes it possible for the feminist to understand the self as both conditioned and unconditioned, as essential and constructed, and that the two positions, diametrically opposed in the Western mind, are in fact dependent on one another for their existence.

 

Klein offers the Great Bliss Queen as a potential bridge between Buddhist and feminist discussions on subjectivity and with the hope of facilitating the continued conversation in this very rich field.

[voidisyinyang]

Edited October 10, 2009 by drewhempel

[Sunya]

Drew, i'm not trying to get into a "male mental masturbatory" debate with you, I just think that important matters should be clear and discerned. state things as they are. I simply suggest that you look more deeply. I personally trust the views of real Buddhist teachers not scholars. Tibetans generally have a good view not only because of their philosophical training but meditative experience.

 

Now I don't have time to respond to everything... but I think the most important thing I can say to you is that I adhere to the view, which accords with my reasoning, that rationality is a tool, and a necessary one. The non-conceptual is defined by the conceptual as the boat must be directed in the right direction and cared or. The boat is there; we cannot ignore it. To dispose of the boat is to sink and drown in the waters; this is not seen as enlightenment in any school of Buddhism which stresses the utmost importance of proper philosophical view. see my post in 'ego and thought' thread about prerational/transrational fallacy. so I say this because it seems you hold concepts as limiting and useless, which I see as wrong; they are necessary. I also say this because if you don't understand this, you will not understand why Buddhism differs and does not agree with other non-dual traditions.

 

as for Master Nan, no I don't recommend him. I've read some of his works and think there are better sources out there. I don't know if its Bill Bodri that distorts the books or not, but if not then Nan does not present proper Buddhism. Emptiness is not a state of pure awareness, pure awareness is itself empty. emptiness is not awareness, emptiness is the condition, true nature, of everything including awareness/consciousness. this is why Buddhism differs than your presentation because pure awareness is not the end goal.. rather the emptiness of that pure awareness; emptiness meaning... no self nature.. awareness is dependently originated. see this for further clarification... very well written. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/200...-vis-hindu.html

 

I would suggest that blog in general as a great source of information if you are interested in understanding more about Buddhism.

[voidisyinyang]

See now we got somewhere because the word "awareness" typically applies to view as path -- wisdom as insight analysis in Buddhism but Master Nan, Huai-chin uses "awareness" to refer to advaita pure consciousness in the same sense as Ramana Maharshi. Poonjaji states that Zen Buddhism is the same as Advaita Vedanta but his teacher Ramana Maharshi states that advaita is NOT emptiness and therefore not Buddhism.

 

Who is right and wrong?

 

Thanks for further clarifying YOUR NEED to have the correct path and view. I would only add that the prerational/transrational angle you have embraced comes from Ken Wilber and I, myself, critique and disagree with Ken Wilber in my 2001 masters thesis, "Epicenters of Justice" linked at http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm.

 

I think Ken Wilber is racist with his prerational modeled as the infantile on the individual level -- dismissing indigenous cultures as somehow less sophisticated, despite the vast "indigenous technical knowledge" for local ecological culture. In contrast I would recommend biologist/anthropologist Lyall Watson's take on indigenous shamanism or Dr. Vandana Shiva or Winona LaDuke but

 

NOT the prerational/transrational white male bald spiritual enlightenment schtick.

 

And yes I did have my head shaved before I went into the Theravada monastery. We just got our FIRST SNOW here in Minnesota and I've been wearing a hat even inside the house for the past couple weeks.

 

Still my relatives go to play soccer today as their "prerational" schtick and I'm hoping to go buy food for them as my "transrational" schtick. What's more important or spiritual? I don't know but when the little ones complain there's no food I tend to think it's more important than soccer. Of course I have food stamps right now and plan to move in with my parents today but in my current

 

"prerational" household

 

one never knows what kind of patriarchial lower chakra control device will kick in

 

to subvert my

 

"transrational" plan for spiritual escape.

 

And yet the "prerational" culture is in fact a VICTIM -- a byproduct of the "transrational" -- the spiritual evolution by genocide in the West.

 

Ken Wilber's wife was not healed by his white male spirituality -- just like Ram Dass' chanting didn't prevent his stroke.

 

Which brings me back to the full-lotus as transcending the whole conceptual realm itself -- the white male Western Buddhism scene does not rely on the full-lotus.

[JustARandomPanda]

Still my relatives go to play soccer today as their "prerational" schtick and I'm hoping to go buy food for them as my "transrational" schtick. What's more important or spiritual? I don't know but when the little ones complain there's no food I tend to think it's more important than soccer. Of course I have food stamps right now and plan to move in with my parents today but in my current

 

"prerational" household

 

one never knows what kind of patriarchial lower chakra control device will kick in

 

to subvert my

 

"transrational" plan for spiritual escape.

 

And yet the "prerational" culture is in fact a VICTIM -- a byproduct of the "transrational" -- the spiritual evolution by genocide in the West.

 

I sometimes think this is one reason why some indigenous / more "earth" oriented people view Civilization and Civilized Man as decadent. Civilization allows for great disparities of wealth..to the point that some starve in grinding poverty while others have so much they can't contain it all.

 

Conan's Cimmerian tribe would never allow one of its children to starve while others lived with so much luxury the resources were idle or went to waste. Makes me wonder which culture is in fact more actually transrational.

[Vajrahridaya]

See now we got somewhere because the word "awareness" typically applies to view as path -- wisdom as insight analysis in Buddhism but Master Nan, Huai-chin uses "awareness" to refer to advaita pure consciousness in the same sense as Ramana Maharshi. Poonjaji states that Zen Buddhism is the same as Advaita Vedanta but his teacher Ramana Maharshi states that advaita is NOT emptiness and therefore not Buddhism.

 

Who is right and wrong?

 

The difference is simply this. Advaita Vedanta posits a true and self existing awareness that is at the beginning of the universe and persists throughout all time that is the single source of all beings. Buddhism does not. The state of non-dual awareness realized through seeing dependent origination directly is merely a result of seeing dependent origination which posits no single source of all activity of all beings.

 

The subtle difference is very, very important and extremely refined in how one experiences and lives with non-dual awareness.

 

Thanks for further clarifying YOUR NEED to have the correct path and view.

 

Of course people need a correct path and view. Why be incorrect and have a false view?

 

 

Which brings me back to the full-lotus as transcending the whole conceptual realm itself -- the white male Western Buddhism scene does not rely on the full-lotus.

 

The Buddha was very clear in the Pali that this is not enlightenment, and merely leads to dwelling in a formless realm, either after death or after your modular perception loses it's karmic stability at the end of a cosmic eon. To Buddhism, the state of non-conceptual is a concept and originates dependently. It is not the source of existence, it is not the end all be all, and is not the type of non-dualism that Buddhism realizes.

 

Take care.

 

 

I sometimes think this is one reason why some indigenous / more "earth" oriented people view Civilization and Civilized Man as decadent. Civilization allows for great disparities of wealth..to the point that some starve in grinding poverty while others have so much they can't contain it all.

 

Conan's Cimmerian tribe would never allow one of its children to starve while others lived with so much luxury the resources were idle or went to waste. Makes me wonder which culture is in fact more actually transrational.

 

I agree! Have you seen, "The God's Must Be Crazy"? Great funny film with a good philosophical premise in the beginning. It's good just to see the beginning as they lay out the differences between the indigenous and popular cultures.

[voidisyinyang]

Vaj -- your explanation of the subtle yet crucial difference between Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta is well-written and I am already very familiar with the point you raise. Again I have to emphasize that the difference you describe is not necessarily as clear-cut as imagined. For example in Advaita, as taught by Ramana Maharshi, it's emphasized that the Practice Is the Goal -- so at first you repeat I-I-I-I over and over but then the I-thought becomes focused and then you logically infer the source of the I-thought which then creates light. I like to think of this process of the practice as the goal as LISTENING to the source of the I-thought but Ramana Maharshi states very clearly as long as thoughts arise then the practice must continue until:

 

THE MIND IS KILLED.

 

This is a physical post-death experience with the mind originating in the heart -- Ramana Maharshi's heart stopped for over 10 minutes after he did 9 years of vichara (self-enquiry) -- and only then did he achieve eternal liberation, or what he called "cutting the knot."

 

Even his "followers" don't READ Ramana Maharshi's words -- people are not that literary and usually have herd mentality because we're social animals. So they "join" and "follow" but I studied Ramana Maharshi's books, including rare books from his ashram that are in the South Asian Ames Library at the U of MN. In fact one of these books had significant shakti to it!

 

Anyway my point is that the PROCESS of vichara is actually infinite (much like the Buddhist practice of interdependent origination) -- the followers claim that sahaja samadhi was achieved by Ramana Maharshi when he first imagined death and got nirvikalpa samadhi at age 16. But Ramana Maharshi states that most yogis get fixated on the astral realms without continuing to focus on the nondual source of reality -- through more and more nirvikalpa samadhi from logically inferring the source of the I-thought. Just to be more specific another famous advaita teacher (who I believe was fake) stated to focus on "I AM" yet Ramana Maharshi stated -- NO -- it's just the SOURCE of the I-thought. So at first you repeat I-I-I but NOT even "I Am."

 

The process of listening though is impersonal -- the vichara as logical inference -- and it is infinite as a PROCESS (again like Buddhism), only the linear logical goal is the post-death "cutting of the knot." After that is achieved (which is very very rare to do via just self-enquiry) the mind is permanently killed (Ramana Maharshi uses this "kill the mind" extreme language) and the sahaja samadhi is permanent. That's considered complete enlightenment versus self-realization and is the product of ONLY practicing vichara of the source of the I-thought.

 

This is where Buddhism disagrees with Advaita stating in Buddhism that the I-thought is just one concept among infinite concepts and that the truth is experiential through interdependent origination of emptiness. Buddhism is very much a reaction against the Brahmin vedic teachings (which falsely reified the concept of the I-thought as a caste religion without the actual spiritual achievements) but at the same time the advaita of Buddhism is still based on the Vedic teachings -- it's an unorthodox extension.

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin, for example, argues that it's relatively easy to achieve the "eternal liberation" of Advaita (or as Buddhists state the Arhants) because in Mahayana that means just emptying out the 7th Level of Consciousness -- the ego -- beyond the 6th level of conceptual consciousness. But Master Nan, Huai-chin says that this 7th level of consciousness emptied out into pure awareness is not enough because when the body gets sick near death then the mind and the breath will not be able to transcend the body via the heart -- and the final thought and breath will end in unawareness -- in ignorance as dark emptiness, instead of light awareness from resonance with empty awareness.

 

But again Master Nan, Haui-chin, while advocating vichara or "who am I?" as one Ch'an meditation practice, does not detail that this investigation must continued to be pursued PAST death -- thereby transcending the very physical limitation he argues limits the emptying out of the 7th level of consciousness. I figured out in my research that vichara or left-brain logical inference of the source of the I-thought relies on the left-brain vagus nerve which connects directly to the heart chakra. Meanwhile right-brain visualization of light meditation, which is by far the usual nonwestern meditation, relies on the right-brain vagus nerve that connects to the lower body.

 

This is why Advaita Vedanta is called the "direct path" -- because it appears to bypass the need to heal or resonate the lower body chakras. Instead of "supreme complete enlightenment" of Ch'an Buddhism and Taoism (where there is an immortal body and mind transformation into spirit-light) the Advaita Vedantins state there is no need to create a diamond or rainbow immortal body. Again once death is transcended through the "direct path" of the left-brain vagus nerve connecting to the right-side of the heart, the body is left to play out its karmic path in this lifetime, without further accumulation of karma.

 

The problem with the Advaita model is that it still relies on sublimation of sex energy, only through the left-brain logical inference as indirectly repressing female sex energy, instead of right-brain conscious sublimation and purification (ionization) of sex energy as tantra. So the Brahmin mind yoga jnana tradition is dependent on no contact with females since there is no reliance on the full-lotus to sublimate the lower body -- and therefore there has to be a strict caste system based on the left-brain dominant ritual priesthood mind yogis. This ritual priesthood then developed into the Western religious priesthood and then into science because along with left-brain ritual priesthood sacrifice religion co-evolved geometric-based technology for imperial expansion.

 

Buddhism is then often considered part of the earlier matrifocal tantric Dravidian culture before the Aryan invasion but Theravada Buddhism, as I stated, emphasizes the rational left-brain analysis of insight -- which was called Neti, Neti in the Brahmin tradition. Neither this nor that. Whereas Advaita states it IS this awareness as logical inference -- the West is actually more Buddhist since "proof by contradiction" axiomatic logic, starting with the Pythagorean Theorem, is also part of the "Neti, Neti" logic that Buddhism relies on. Again Advaita emphasizes that ONLY through logical inference as a positive embrace of nondual awareness is the linear goal achieved of post-death pure consciousness via the left-brain, right side of the heart connection. Again I discovered that this is due to relying on the left-brain vagus nerve going to the heart, instead of the right-brain vagus nerve connecting to the life-force lower body via the full-lotus tantra practice. So which Buddhism came first -- the tantra nondualism practice or the left-brain "insight" vipassana analysis of Theravada or the right-brain light-visualization of the forest monks -- in relation to the Vedic tradition?

 

Because of the many traditions of Buddhism it really is an extension of the many traditions of what is now called Hinduism -- the earlier Vedic philosophies. As I stated the Burmese claim that Burmans as an ethnic group is derived from Brahmins. While Buddhism is often considered Dravidian (pre-Aryan) again the Theravada tradition was the more rational Brahmin extension against the Tantra Dravidian tradition and therefore the Burmese Theravada consider themselves to be associated with the earlier Brahmin.

 

My point that I've repeated over and over is which is right? These all overlap in the East -- there is still a very real tension between "forest monks" doing "power" meditation via full-lotus fasting and city monks doing scholarly mind yoga. That's the Theravada difference of Advaita mind yoga versus tantra full-lotus and it has very real political implications with the military elite wanting the power of the forest monks -- be it in Thailand or Burma, etc. Sri Lanka is even more pronounced with militant Buddhists against militant Hindus, etc.

 

But the same difference happens in Mahayana in Tibet and Ladakh, etc. The Dalai Lama Gelupa sect is actually a scholarly mind yoga tradition with emphasis on nondual mahamudra practice but if you study the Tibetan tradition, the "real" yogis LEAVE the monastery to do tantric cave meditation, relying on tummo, taking next to no food. These are the real "heroes" of the Tibetan-Ladakhi tradition because in such a cold climate with short growing season those who figured out how to live without food were a great asset for the rest of the society. And so Milarepa is actually part of this tantric cave meditation tradition of full-lotus tummo but in reality such monks are next to non-existent today in India, Ladakh-Tibet, etc.

 

Chunyi Lin, as a Taoist-Buddhist Chinese full-lotus master, did his cave meditation at the mountain considered to be the origin of Lao Tzu Taoism. In fact he stated that he has a PHYSICAL encounter with the founder of Taoism -- yet Chunyi Lin promotes Buddhist heart sutra, etc. So is he not really Buddhist or really Taoist? He joked with me that the ONLY thing he hasn't done is

 

KILLED HIMSELF

 

a la the Advaita Ramana Maharshi practice which again is even denied by his followers. What philosophy can promote itself stating our leader had to stop his heart for over 10 minutes in order to achieve eternal liberation and that is our goal?

 

Again Ramana Maharshi emphasized that the typical yogi gets lost in the astral realms after achieving the first levels of nirvikalpa samadhi. In fact when I "achieved cessation" as it's called in Theravada -- when I did an 8 day fast on just half glass of water and my skull cracked open and my body breathed with electromagnetic energy and the ambrosia flowed down, so I wasn't hungry nor thirsty, and I saw dead spirits and I experienced the source of my mind-body as pure empty awareness -- the question for me remained:

 

Now what? Where do I go? What's the point of astral travel? I mean this is serious stuff and it seemed strange to not have a goal in mind -- but then that's my left-brain dominant Western logic, again as an extension of the Advaita tradition.

 

As you've stated the Buddhist tradition is different -- but I would argue it is an extension of the "Neti, Neti" -- "neither this, nor that" philosophy in the Vedas. Advaita Vedanta states that "neti, Neti" does not achieve eternal liberation -- but ONLY logical inference of the I-thought achieves eternal liberation because no matter what astral realm of insight analysis achieved (rational logic applied to light astral experience) there is still the sense of the ego based on the concept of the I-thought. There is still an "object" of ego focus to the interdependent origination.

 

My own take on this is to use music (again LISTENING) as the model for reality -- nonwestern music relying on complementary opposites. But I won't go into details about that since I've had several articles published online stating my case, etc.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Vajrahridaya]

sahaja samadhi is permanent.

 

Not if one doesn't see dependent origination and merely see's non-duality through a real substance that seems non-substantial as substratum. You seem to keep thinking the void or infinite empty consciousness is what emptiness means. It does that. That's just another meditative experience.

 

Enlightening the House of Brahma in the fontanelle

Stroking the uvala in wanton delight,

Confused, believing binding pleasure to be spiritual release,

The vain fools calls himself a yogin.

 

Teaching that virtue is irrelevant to intrinsic awareness,

He mistakes the lock for the key;

Ignorant of the true nature of the gem

The fool calls green glass emerald.

 

His mind takes brass for gold,

Momentary peak experience for reality accomplished;

Clinging to the joy of ephemeral dreams

He calls his short-thrift life Eternal Bliss.

 

With a discursive understanding of the symbol EVAM,

Creating four seals through an analysis of the moment,

He labels his peak experience sahaja:

He is clinging to a reflection mistaken for the mirror.-Saraha, one of the 84 Mahasiddhas

 

My own take on this is to use music (again LISTENING) as the model for reality -- nonwestern music relying on complementary opposites. But I won't go into details about that since I've had several articles published online stating my case, etc.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

For a Buddha, you can listen forever, because there's no actual cessation of activity through an experiential idea that all things are one essence. Rather, we see that duality always is, it's just inherently empty from top to bottom always, so there is in fact no transcendent. Which is why Samsara is seen as Nirvana, not that we transcend Samsara, but we just see what Samsara is and are liberated in it.

[voidisyinyang]

I "seem" to... haha! I guess we all "seem" to -- Ramana Maharshi states that after eternal liberation with each breath and thought there is an automatic return to the source of his body, through the heart-chakra - beyond death.

 

So it remains a "process" -- a constant process -- but there's a difference between it being permanently post-death beyond the heart instead of the astral realm light-vision process. The empty awareness beyond the heart is like the deep sleep state but creates light and spiritual healing on its own.

 

Vaj -- have you read David Godman's 3 vol. biography of Ramana Maharshi's lineage master -- H.W.L. Poonja.

 

It's called "Nothing Ever Happened" -- an excellent book of "all" the spiritual powers -- yet often he wasn't "aware" that he was creating multiple physical bodies, etc. In other words the pure consciousness enables his subconscious desires to be fulfilled even though it's miraculous AND his left-brain awareness does not know. So it's like deep sleep yet the opposite since the level of awareness is beyond the physical body, through the heart, thereby enabling all the yogic spiritual powers which happen as a projection of the body's astral and jing energy.

 

Vaj -- Have you read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" trans. by Charles Luk? When I first discovered this website forum I was promoted that book then learned that the book was considered TOO DANGEROUS to read if you don't have a direct energy master to guide you.

 

I got to about chapter 10 in the practice of that book and then the energy was just too powerful for modern mundane society -- and that was almost 10 years ago now! haha.

 

But I see no reason why people shouldn't read or study that book, especially in the interest of Taoism. There seems to be more and more "Buddhist" posters on this website -- maybe it's from the more syncretic Taoist-Buddhist tradition of China (and even Tibet).

 

Anyway I also recommend Master Nan, Huai-chin's Ch'an books yet apparently they're now out of print. I gave my copies away -- a few times! Now the books sell for $100 or something even though they're cheap paperbook publications. haha.

 

Chunyi Lin, the Taoist-Buddhist qigong master healer for the Mayo Clinic http://springforestqigong.com says if you want to see if someone is a real master just see how long they can sit in full-lotus. Easy and verifiable without relying on the eternal conceptual debates online.

 

So myself included -- all of us online posters are not "real" practitioners or meditators no matter what "school" or philosophy we choose to align with. I read several places stating that only AFTER nirvikalpa samadhi does true meditation even start -- yet nirvikalpa samadhi is an extremely rare state to achieve. Master Nan, Huai-chin exposes how the mind yoga practices are mislead because only with body transformation (again demonstrated through full-lotus) is nirvikalpa samadhi obtainable. Even then Master Nan, Huai-chin states that most practitioners "fall back into worldliness" due to "heroic overexuberance" and that was certainly the case with me.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So myself included -- all of us online posters are not "real" practitioners or meditators no matter what "school" or philosophy we choose to align with. I read several places stating that only AFTER nirvikalpa samadhi does true meditation even start -- yet nirvikalpa samadhi is an extremely rare state to achieve. Master Nan, Huai-chin exposes how the mind yoga practices are mislead because only with body transformation (again demonstrated through full-lotus) is nirvikalpa samadhi obtainable.

 

Dzogchenpas don't believe in these dogmas and still attain the body of light, jalus, or great transference.

 

So, I'm not in agreement with your teachers.

 

One can attain liberation in any bodily position. One can have the nirvikalpa experience which is merely a formless state meditation experience of infinite consciousness, or infinite nothingness, or beyond perception and non-perception spontaneously occur while serving water as a waiter in a restaurant.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[voidisyinyang]

Vaj what you say is true and certainly the full-lotus is not necessary but again Chunyi Lin states 20 minutes of full-lotus is worth 4 hours of any other practice.

 

Vaj -- isn't is possible that you're just reacting defensively? Master Nan, Huai-chin also states that any of the meditative astral realms can be experienced spontaneously but he differentiates this from "stabilization" of such a level. The mind yoga -- be it Tibetan or Jnana of India or Theravada, etc. -- certainly enables to reach the level of Ramana Maharshi but it's still dependent on sublimated sex energy! Vivekananda stated that spirituality is just sublimated sex energy and Master Nan, Huai-chin states you can NOT be both materialist and spiritual at the same time. Tantra is the attempt to do this but it's usually the "poor man's" version of spirituality relying on alcohol and garlic and still practicing physical sex -- when "real" tantra is not physical sex, etc.

 

Again these differences can be transcended but to rely on "mind yoga" requires separation from female "contamination" -- there's a lot of "fake" white male spiritualists who use Eastern spirituality just to get more female sex! Crowley was the epitome of this fakeness while Gurdjieff called him on it yet he too "initiated" females through sex. Still there's a real difference between sucking off female energy for male ejaculation and sublimated female sex energy so the pineal gland shoots it back to the female now as electromagnetic laser healing energy. Most modern males are controlled by the "kundabuffer" -- the small of the back chakra. The full-lotus opens this up and demonstrates it is open. I can sit in full-lotus for hours IF there are females around because that ensures the continued into of what the Bushmen call "N/um" and the Taoists call "jing" -- yet so much of mind yoga pretends this sex magic isn't part of spirituality. In fact the mind yoga depends on stating females can't be nuns -- can't interact with the male monks -- have to hide in their houses, etc.

 

So yeah you can achieve the same in mind yoga IF there is separation from female "contamination" -- as the Brahmin priests had to do a 3 day "purification" ritual just for having visual contact with a female. This was carried into the West via the Greek philosophers requiring females to be locked into their houses while the Greek males sucked off the boys to get more jing energy. Sad but true -- and then Professor David F. Noble's "World Without Women" book describes how the all male misogynist monasteries led to the rise of science, etc. Not that there wasn't a tantric techno-feminist angle on this with elite females supporting the new imperial technological prowess of their "men" fueled by the separation from females so the males can focus on developing left-brain mind power for weapons, science, etc.

 

So the white male mind yoga spiritual "what is enlightenment" scene is really in line with modern techno-fetish "geeks rule the world" Missile Envy spirituality of Western science. This started with the Brahmin caste system and the Buddhists were and continue to be an IMPERIALIST force, converting matrifocal indigenous tribes to be in line with the tantric King of whatever Buddhist country. This continues in Burma and Thailand and the war in Sri Lanka, etc.

 

To claim Buddhists are peaceful is parallel to Hitler being a vegetarian and the Dalai Lama working with the Nazis and CIA. Not that Communism is any better but the West is a continuation of the tantric commodity fetish mass ritual sacrifice spirituality. Even standardized money, original with gold as solar and silver as lunar, became a "divide and average" value with the argument it enabled prostitutes to now buy their freedom. What used to be the sacred sex of tantric temples becomes the new standardized employment of female sex for money as feminist liberation!

 

This transition represented the cross over from right-brain dominant Dravidian tantra to left-brain dominant Brahmin-Buddhist-Zoroastrian ritual priesthood, the leading to Plato's merger of Babylonian and Indian ritual priest sacrifice geometry as spiritual eugenics.

 

The Bushmen culture is the original tantric shamanism -- relying on music and trance dance and matrifocal dominance yet even then it was an adaptation by humans against famine conditions. Earlier still is the bonobo males -- peaceful and constantly having sex yet RARELY ejaculating! The female bonobos are in charge, in direct contrast to Chimpanzees practicing female exogamy. The Bushmen culture is more like bonobos while "modern" humans are chimpanzees.

Edited October 11, 2009 by drewhempel

[voidisyinyang]

 

Cambodia's "magic monk" blends Brahminism with Theraveda and indigenous magic....

[Vajrahridaya]

Eh... individuals will be individuals.

 

It is true that the full lotus is a wonderful practice. It's also true that I don't know all of your recommended teachers teachings and methods, so I cannot comment on their full realization. Since you've elaborated a bit on their view. It sounds nice.

 

I wish you well with it.

 

I don't feel that Ramana attained Buddhahood. But, I'm not him and I cannot comment on how he internalizes privately within his individual mind stream the concepts he used and methods he recommends.

 

He was a good and great being. I find Buddhist teachings to be clear. If people in various parts of the East want to be extremists of any type, that's their prerogative and one cannot hold the Buddha accountable for that.

 

Anyway... you seem like a smart and sincere person. I wish you well!!

Edited October 11, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[JustARandomPanda]

Between Drew's talk of the Bushmen and learning of the amazing chi healing and raising effects of shaking from my KAP teacher Tao I now see how important it is. Shaking is especially great at targeting, cleansing and raising the Chi trapped in bone and cartilage - one of the hardest to reach and the slowest of all the body's chi to transform.

 

I got this book the other day

 

Shaking Medicine: The Healing Power of Ecstatic Movement

 

The author actually had extended apprenticeships with African Bushmen to learn their Shaking "Qi Gong". The book also comes with a CD of tribal drumming to do a 40 minute shaking routine of your own.

 

Or I suppose one could buy a Rebounder as per Ya Mu's suggestions. It does the same thing - shake the chi in bone. I just don't have the money for one nor the room.

 

Of course the downside to both is that neither the book nor a Rebounder have transmissions as one would get via apprenticeship with the Bushmen or with Ya Mu. But I guess it's somewhat like exercise. Even if you don't get to train with an Olympic Coach it doesn't mean you don't get benefits from the exercise.

[voidisyinyang]

Excellent! Bradford Keeney was a professor in my home-town and he was focused on Gregory Bateson, similar to my masters thesis http://nonduality.com/hempel.htm "epicenters of justice" link.

 

Keeney's website has been upgraded:

 

http://shakingmedicine.com/teaching/the-or...s-of-spirit.php

 

He says the "shaking" COMES FROM THE N/om -- the jing kundalini -- but also the shaking activates the n/om plus abdominal breathing is the secret to transmit and exorcise the spirit energy blockages into and out of the body....

 

Keeney, like myself, emphasizes music over words and he says the Bushmen state we all become "spiritual idiots" after the healing trance dance ritual is over.....

 

This little doc is awesome -- "hugs the heart" -- tears of joy. Lots of Bushmen healing footage.

 

http://shakingmedicine.com/bradford-keeney/documentary.php

 

This is a truly amazing new "declaration" from the Bushmen healers which corrects information I had also read from anthropologists and passed along online...

 

http://shakingmedicine.com/bushmen/declaration.php

Edited October 11, 2009 by drewhempel

[BigJonMud]

wow, thanks for all this info drewhempel !

 

I've stayed in a couple of monasteries, and it sometimes hurts to see how dogmatic a monks practice and understanding can become.

How limited to their own understanding of the words can be. Then there are other, who understands these words again differently.

 

Whatever works!

[voidisyinyang]

Right on -- last night I watched a series of short youtube vids by a Chinese Englishing-speak monk who practiced in Burma and Cambodia I think. Anyway he was doing MIND YOGA and complained about how the cell phone microwave tower by his monastery had given him headaches, body pain stress, indigestion, etc. He then tried qigong with no results. Finally he got the mercury removed from his mouth (something I did as well) and immediately he felt better. Still though while he said he's had some "experiences" the power of his concentration has been radically limited due to the lack of lower body transduction -- the mind on its own is quite weak and just sitting with legs cross or legs Burmese style does not resonate the life-force energy for healing. His said his Theravada monk teachers considered his whole health obsession as just a mental blockage distraction against any meditation process -- they didn't want to deal with it and got mad at him. Still the practice of qigong and other special diets, etc. was allowed but had to be done in private by the monk.

 

If you want further discussion of my research more in detail my blog is http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com -- although my research discussion is scattered around the internet as articles and interviews based on peer criticism and dialog. It's all free fun for me but now people want to give me money so that my practice gets better. haha.

 

Can I be commodified? haha Turned into a spiritual worker -- that's one of the big issues in Burma. Previously the monasteries were state-funded and the focus was on serious mind yoga meditation for body transformation. But as the Burmese masses become more liberal via the West, fighting off colonialism, wanting more democracy -- the Burmese lay-community took greater control of the monasteries. The state funding was lost and now the monks are required to focus on scholarly education of the masses while getting fed by the masses, etc. A similar debate about political control and the type of yoga practiced has occurred in Thailand -- forest monks are "power" monks doing full-lotus but then ironically get more state support since the elite want the power....

 

Yet the indigenous cultures in Southeast Asia are still in struggle against Buddhism used as imperialist assimilation -- and the West meanwhile has more success with the CIA Christian evangelical assimilation of the "hill tribes," -- all in the vortex of ecological and mass cultural genocide, etc.