Is Capoeira the Supreme Martial Art?

[Stigweard]

LOL ... I love these discussions ...

 

Q: What's the best MA??

 

A: Whatever stops yer ass being pawned.

 

So in that regard, sitting here typing away is a good MA because it keeps me away from where bad shit is going down.

 

MMA is great cause they get to train their limited range of attacks to full force making them better prepped. And in regards to BJJ being the best well that's just BS because, in most cases, it only trains for the ring, but at the same time it is also BS to say "never go to the ground" because statistically that's where most fights end up so if you don't have familiarity on the ground you could get trapped there and subsequently face stomped.

 

The best martial arts is appropriate response ... no more or no less then what is required to harmonize the situation.

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Only in the cage. Generally, on the street the man with the gun has the superior art.

 

Because every violent person you meet with have a gun and since you'll be so powerless anyway, there's obviously no point in learning how to fight at all.

 

Capoeria players used to fight with razor blades between their toes ..?? read that some where... Facing a guy holding a knife is a fast way of getting realistic about martial arts.Really don't give a dam about cage fighting, never go to ground on the street never, never ever.

 

Because the person who did that totally died.

 

No absolutes in fighting. If you can end a fight in seconds by going to the ground, and you know that it's safe to do, don't stand around for a minute and a half trying to duke it out just cuz you're trying to "never, never ever" go to ground on the street.

[lazy cloud]

LOL ... I love these discussions ...

 

Q: What's the best MA??

 

A: Whatever stops yer ass being pawned.

 

So in that regard, sitting here typing away is a good MA because it keeps me away from where bad shit is going down.

 

MMA is great cause they get to train their limited range of attacks to full force making them better prepped. And in regards to BJJ being the best well that's just BS because, in most cases, it only trains for the ring, but at the same time it is also BS to say "never go to the ground" because statistically that's where most fights end up so if you don't have familiarity on the ground you could get trapped there and subsequently face stomped.

 

The best martial arts is appropriate response ... no more or no less then what is required to harmonize the situation.

 

The debate (mindless) could go on forever. Most people are stuck in their own box and will never change their opinion. I agree to the appropiate response idea. Of course that will require a high level of expertise.

 

If I had a choice of what type of adversary I had to tangle with , I would hope for a MMA type. IMO that style plays into my strength.

BJJ may be fine in a 1 on 1 situation. In a gang vs. gang street fight IMO it is useless. Is anyone here suggesting that a Gracie would defeat 1 on 1 either Guo Yunghen, Yang Lu Chan, Dong Hai chuan, or a Sun Lu Tang ?

 

The debate will continue. Is the proving grounds a Caged Octogon ? Indonesian jungle?

The local Biker bar? A Street near you?

Really there are too many variables to make a determination.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The debate (mindless) could go on forever. Most people are stuck in their own box and will never change their opinion. I agree to the appropiate response idea. Of course that will require a high level of expertise.

 

Not only expertise, but experience, and ability to read the situation.

 

A fight may go on in a crowd of people- are they friends of the person you're fighting, or just people whipping out their camera phone to post it on youtube later on? Will they jump on you if you start to win? I've been in a fight where someone rushed in at me, head down, just swinging. I put him in a guillotine choke, laid down on my back, and choked him out in seconds. I rolled him off and walked away, his friends all rushed to see if he was okay, and by the time they realized they might want to stop me, I was gone. Obviously in another situation that might not have worked, but I correctly read the situation, their friends thought he had the advantage, they weren't going to step in to help, and when they probably thought about it, I was gone.

 

If I had a choice of what type of adversary I had to tangle with , I would hope for a MMA type. IMO that style plays into my strength.

 

And what strength is that?

 

People who train for MMA, even at an amateur level, are top notch athletes. Not only do they train for strength, but also flexibility and explosive power. They learn to take hits as well as to dish them out. Though a few of them start out with a few techniques they know really well, as they get more experienced their repertoire expands and they learn counters upon counters. Even if you have superior technical skills, someone who can just outlast you in terms of endurance, or beat you to the punch, would win.

 

Even in a street fight. Even if the guy has a knife. The attributes that MMAists, and most professional athletes train, physically and psychologically, is just better than most training you'd find in a karate studio, or traditional chinese marts class, or in an internal martial arts class. Not many people train as hard as those guys do.

 

BJJ may be fine in a 1 on 1 situation. In a gang vs. gang street fight IMO it is useless.

 

I don't think that people realize that, at least in the Gracie schools, there are different types of training. They certainly have training which is geared towards the ring, but they also have training for street encounters and real life self defense. Let's not forget that when they issued the Gracie challenge, it was no holds barred- people could even try their famous groin shots if they thought it would work, and, well, it didn't.

 

Is anyone here suggesting that a Gracie would defeat 1 on 1 either Guo Yunghen

 

Well how effective do you think his bengquan would be from his back?

 

Yang Lu Chan

 

Well depending on the types of push hands you look at and get into, and depending on how much of a stickler you are to the rules, some tai chi almost looks like wrestling. But see the thing about BJJ is it's not just wrestling- it's GROUNDFIGHTING as well. And to my knowledge, not a lot of CMA's taught how to fight on the GROUND. 1, because it was dirty and that's what dogs and young children did, not adults. 2, because any arts from the battlefield didn't focus too much on that, because, well, on a battlefield you'd probably get trampled, or the guy on top of you could get speared through the back. Which sounds all badass and everything, but if you aren't fighting on a battlefield, but instead in the street, or a bar, well who's going to spear your opponent in the back when they take you down?

 

Dong Hai chuan

 

Well Dong Hai Chuan could just jump 20 feet above someone and avoid the fight altogether, so there ya go.

 

or a Sun Lu Tang

 

I read a story somewhere that Sun Lu Tang accepted a challenge from a Japanese wrestler, Sun Lu Tang was on the ground and let the wrestler try to lock one of his arms, but Sun Lu Tang used tai chi applications to prevent it from being locked.

 

Neat sort of parlor trick/challenge, how well does this apply in the fight? So in my opinion, same category as Yang Luchan- could conceivably go either way, depending on how well the tai chi people could use yielding to get out of stuff, and generate power, all from the ground.

[lazy cloud]

the debate continues.

Sun Lu Tang was 60 when he took the Japanese Champion's challenge.

I dont think Guo Yunghen would end up on his back. Bengquan was not his only weapon.

I said earlier about everyone being in their box. I am also in mine I suppose.

DoJo wars and Streetfights are apples and oranges.

I agree with you that there is no substitute for real experience.

We all have our "war stories".

Do you think a xingyiquan master does not have Strength, Flexibility, and Explosive Power? What they do have is a Fighting Spirit. Fears no Demons.

Push Hands is not fighting but rather a Training Technique for Sensitivity.

I would not advise anyone to go up and try to kick Tu Jin-Sheng in the nuts either.

Wonder what those monks do in the Shaolin Temples all day? Probably worry about MMA guys

Debating is fun I don't take it serious. I respect the Gracies. They have opened alot of eyes.

I will send a letter to the Chinese military to suggest they replace xingyiquan training techniques with BJJ.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I dont think Guo Yunghen would end up on his back. Bengquan was not his only weapon.

 

Yes, well, a great number of people have said how they would never end up on their back, and yet they did. If there's anything that the UFC and similar groups have proven consistently, is that the best defense against someone trying to take you down is to have a good ground game yourself. I keep referring to him, but Anderson "the Spider" Silva is almost impossible to take down. Why? He's so good on the ground himself, he knows the techniques so well, that he can be where he wants when he wants, and sometimes that on his feet, sometimes it's on the ground.

 

DoJo wars and Streetfights are apples and oranges.

 

Well if your purpose of training in a dojo is learning to fight on the street, then perhaps you should rethink your methods for training. At least with traditional styles, the dojo was only supposed to be a stepping stone to real life. Of course, as time went on, dojos became increasingly separated from the concerns of real life. Anyway....

 

Do you think a xingyiquan master does not have Strength, Flexibility, and Explosive Power?

 

I think you're mixing two different aspects of a post- you said you'd like to fight an MMAist. I'm saying that the average MMAist trains ridiculously well, even at an average level. The average traditional martial artist, not so much. The average internal martial artist, not so much. So unless you are above average in whatever it is you do, or cross train in some type of MMA like style, well.... maybe you should just elaborate on what you meant by that and why you'd think you'd win.

 

What they do have is a Fighting Spirit. Fears no Demons.

 

Fighting spirit does not make up for a lack of training, conditioning, or skill. You could have a burning passion to fight, and a fearless gaze as you opponent stands above you, stomping the shit out of your face until you lose consciousness.

 

Push Hands is not fighting but rather a Training Technique for Sensitivity.

 

Yes, which is why I said depending on how far you take it, you could have skills comparable to a wrestler, so a tai chi person on that level could grapple effectively with a BJJ guy, depending on some other things (like if it ever went to the ground).

 

I will send a letter to the Chinese military to suggest they replace xingyiquan training techniques with BJJ.

 

You don't gotta be like that. BJJ offers techniques and perspective of an area that many people don't even really acknowledge. There's a reason humility has, for so long, gone hand in hand with the martial arts- because if you're so full of yourself that you look down on something because you don't think it has value compared to your tradition, you just might very well be digging your own grave. Cast aside your pride, and take an honest look at what you're looking at- do you stand to gain something valuable?

 

Xingyiquan presents an easy way to teach some basic stand up techniques. No fancy footwork. No fancy techniques. There is value to that (though I doubt that many, if any, of those soldiers have trained it to a level of some of the past masters, and I bet more than a few rely on muscles and conditioning just as much as any MMAist). It lacks a bit when it comes to mobility and versatility when looking at things like what happens if you're on uneven terrain, if you don't start out from a standing combat position, and things of that nature.

 

It's not always what you train, but how you train it. Many of the internal martial arts have good theories, and solid techniques. Unfortunately, many of the internal martial arts practitioners do not train in such a way as to actually increase FIGHTING ability to the extent that even amateur MMAists do. MMAists learn a technique, workout, increase their stamina, then FIGHT. Full contact, completely resisting opponent. They cross train with different styles and teachers so they can close up any gaps in their game- a stand up fighter will go and train with the best wrestlers they can find, to learn how to beat the best.

 

You just don't see that type of training in the average internal martial arts. You might learn a few applications, but rarely train them full speed because you don't want to "hurt anybody". Rarely do you see many cross training, because "they're so rooted a takedown just wouldn't work".

 

Though I won't go so far to say that all styles are created equal and it's just a matter of training (because I do believe some styles inherently teach less than effective, efficient, and practical methods, while others do), I will say that level of training does make a big amount of difference. Find someone who actually trains a traditional martial art to the extent that the average MMAist does, and pair him with a sub-par, only-doing-it-cuz-its-popular BJJ guy, and the traditional martial artist would win.

 

Pair some of the high level days of old with some of the guys now, and they might not do too badly..... but who in the world is putting the kind of training into their traditional martial art (both in training and in application), as some of the top professional and amateur MMAists these days? I would venture to say not many.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

"wonder what those monks do in the Shaolin Temple all day?"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9k0kjmGkpc

i was concerend for the goat at 0:37 of this clip.

luckily no monk stared at it.

 

they dance too

 

royce vs. akebono

 

the true champion imo

[sifusufi]

The true champion imo

 

Righteous!!

 

 

 

:lol:

[zerostao]

west virginia ninja vs. steven seagal , who is gonna win?!

watch on spike tv " don't go ninja-in no one don't deserve ninja-in"

 

Sloppy Zhang has a nasty choke hold. did lazy cloud ever say what his weapon of choice was? the judey chop?

[Dainin]

west virginia ninja vs. steven seagal , who is gonna win?!

 

Tulku...of course!

[Cat Pillar]

Because every violent person you meet with have a gun and since you'll be so powerless anyway, there's obviously no point in learning how to fight at all.

 

That's why I train Applied Wing Chun .

[orb]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the ultimate martial art and it has been proven time and time again. Most MA's are garbage and they never train with live resistance, all BJJ techniques are done against resisting opponents in training during wrestling. Look what happened to Fedor recently in MMA, Werdum submitted him with a triangle choke.

Capoeira is good for fitness and looks cool but in the real world its not going to work, its all about MMA, have good muay thai or boxing and mix it with either BJJ, Judo or wresting and you have the supreme MA.

I second that.

Facts are facts!

BJJ marked the begining of the UFC and still holds up as a central method of training among all the MMA fighters. Of course Muay Thai and Judo and Boxing and definitely Wrestling / Grappling are very fine MA but they gotta be combined with BJJ to be complete.

Fedor got taught a lesson twice and it wasn't pretty.

[lazy cloud]

west virginia ninja vs. steven seagal , who is gonna win?!

watch on spike tv " don't go ninja-in no one don't deserve ninja-in"

 

Sloppy Zhang has a nasty choke hold. did lazy cloud ever say what his weapon of choice was? the judey chop?

If the "judey chop" is weilded by someone who has 15 years of iron hand training it becomes a diferent type of thing. Someone bull rushing me with head down and neck/back exposed? Tournament and Street are 2 diferent places. Tournaments have rules. That being said on any given day .........

[Sloppy Zhang]

I second that.

Facts are facts!

BJJ marked the begining of the UFC and still holds up as a central method of training among all the MMA fighters. Of course Muay Thai and Judo and Boxing and definitely Wrestling / Grappling are very fine MA but they gotta be combined with BJJ to be complete.

Fedor got taught a lesson twice and it wasn't pretty.

 

I bet a few people around here will get a few chuckles out of the attached image...

 

Edited February 19, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[sifusufi]

I bet a few people around here will get a few chuckles out of the attached image...