Zhan Zhuang Standing information

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, bax44 said:

 

Nothing worse than spiritual "professionals". Yes I think that theres definitely a place for guidance and teaching, Ive already said that. people can get into trouble of course but thats why he says to proceed slowly, as in anything, you dont get better by rushing.

 

The fact though that a book recommendation can be so thoroughly denegrated by people here who apparently feel the need to puff their chest out about how advanced they are is pretty gross. furthermore, anyone who claims to be "right" about things such as this and comes across as  dictatorial in their pronouncements is someone who has the potential to do far more damage to someone than any amount of sloppy zhan zhuang.For instance the way earl grey came across was offputting enough to instinctively go in the other direction. I highly doubt someone who really knows the score would present themselves in such a manner.

 

Newsflash: human bodies know how to naturally stand. They may have forgotten due to the nature of the culture.But,This isnt something like rocket science. Given time and patience an individual learns to make micro adjustments and relax more fully into the stance,letting go. Its an intuitive process.

 

Theres also tons of people who have practiced this stuff mostly solo and make great progress. The way its being presented here as being impossible or whatever is totally disingenous. Let me guess, Youre a "teacher", right?

Yeah you really are butthurt. Just because you don’t like the way I present my assertions that one can’t go far with a book alone,you think that I don’t know what I’m talking about, sure. But you ignored the part where I said that I do recommend it as a supplementary reading even to beginners, not primary reading. Of course. Cherry-picking. The only way for you to win an argument that didn’t even exist until you insisted I was digging at you and ignored that I said the book was all right. 
 

By the way, Zhan Zhuang has nothing to do with spirituality, it’s a technical skill, so you really don’t have a clue about what you’re talking about.

 

You probably are one of those guys who needs to look up the meaning of the lyrics to "What I Got" by Sublime and still don't get what the song is about. 
 

When you can stand five hours, in multiple positions, and know the difference between rooting and grounding, then I might take you seriously, but now you’re really starting to sound butthurt because you insist a body will autocorrect itself and people will get results from the book. I don’t need to list my qualifications any further. 😘

 

Chill out, Butthurtanxzt44.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, bax44 said:

 

I highly doubt someone who really knows the score would present themselves in such a manner.

In my experience, IRL, the handful of teachers I have encountered (some of which had authored books on the subject) presented the subject in ways related to @Earl Grey, so from that I would say he is embracing a tradition. You might not like it, actually I found it bloody annoying when I did something proper according to one teacher and was corrected by another, but that is part of how this works.

 

[Earl Grey]

21 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

In my experience, IRL, the handful of teachers I have encountered (some of which had authored books on the subject) presented the subject in ways related to @Earl Grey, so from that I would say he is embracing a tradition. You might not like it, actually I found it bloody annoying when I did something proper according to one teacher and was corrected by another, but that is part of how this works.

 

 

Let's give an example here as I have several lineages that all do it differently. 

 

In Xin Yi, there's a certain angle in standing that we use that is not found in any other system. It's "wrong" by other frameworks. 

 

However, in the context of the system, it is right, and this we verify by the power and skill that comes from it.

 

According to one Taijiquan lineage, the Zhan Zhuang they do is completely different and is closer to what LKC teaches as it has a sensation of qi and is more circular with the elbows sticking out--so long as someone feels qi, it's "right". 

 

Then, according to the other Taijiquan lineage I study under, the postures are also derived from Yi Quan, but are completely different from the ones in Xin Yi, which itself comes from Yi Quan, but the difference is that doing them all develops golden bell. 

 

So are they all right or is one wrong?

 

The answer is, "It depends". 

 

Where the reliance on LKC's book and the certainty ballsax44 has that led him to be defensive comes from, I don't know, but this is why we always ask people to show their understanding through their skill, not their belief in self-reliance or body hacking. He could come from any tradition and do it totally different, but so long as he doesn't have skill to show or understanding to discuss, him being irritated means nothing to those who do. 

[Cleansox]

29 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

this is why we always ask people to show their understanding through their skill,

Testing martial skills are relatively easy, because you have a testable hypothesis (I have golden bell, I can hit like a mule, I am rooted). 

 

If your focus is health, it's more difficult. The proposition "my health has improved in a major way" is more difficult unless one backs it up with medical records or records of sick leave. 

 

And how do you test "I feel really, like, spiritual..." 

[Zork]

11 hours ago, bax44 said:

 

He uses the 20 min as a beginning recommendation Of course it’s not meant as a permanent thing, lol. He also makes it clear the first two poses are just for beginners, before getting to the more advanced exercises.

Quote

Start by doing the standing exercises for five minutes a day.
After three weeks, increase this to ten minutes. Three weeks
later, aim for 15 minutes, and 20 minutes after a further three
weeks. You can stand for longer if you wish, but 20 minutes will
refresh your whole system.
 

This is verbatim from the book. He never mentions in the book that the actual benefits need an hour or more of focused standing to materialise.

 

11 hours ago, bax44 said:

You know one guy in the history of the universe huh? Who’s keeping track of this stuff? Who benefits from keeping this ridiculous type of belief alive?

No i mean i only know of one guy who did that. There are thousands out there who bought the book and have gone nowhere with it.

 

11 hours ago, bax44 said:

Anyways  cool. Like I said this stupid belief that people can’t do anything on their own and need a more “enlightened “ being to hold their hand the whole way is childish and beneficial usually to only one party. I never said teachers weren’t useful, but ultimately everyone’s on their own, as it should be. 

@freeformdid a better job of responding to this than i could ever do.
 

 

11 hours ago, bax44 said:

Lots of insecurity in here over this book lol.  Why is that.

Au contraire i see a lot of entrenchment on the opinion on "how good the book is and how far it will take you". It is a good book for novices. That is all. If you haven't studied martial arts then you can't understand what can go wrong with just following diagrams or even pictures/video without live teacher's advice.

[freeform]

14 hours ago, bax44 said:

Let me guess, Youre a "teacher", right?

Nope

 

But I have been training full time for quite a few years - not training full time any longer - but close - and my life is very much dedicated to cultivation. My only aim in sharing anything on this forum - is to help and support sincere people interested in cultivation.

 

No courses to sell or teaching to give.

 

I just try and help direct people away from charlatans, dangerous practices and wasting their time.

 

These arts are a minefield.

 

You said it’s not rocket science - actually (as a full path) it’s a lot more complicated than rocket science! 
 

And to be honest - you’re more likely to learn rocket science from books than you would cultivation.
 

14 hours ago, bax44 said:

Newsflash: human bodies know how to naturally stand.

 

But ZZ is not just ‘natural standing’ - why would you need a book for that?

 

14 hours ago, bax44 said:

Given time and patience an individual learns to make micro adjustments and relax more fully into the stance,letting go. Its an intuitive process.

Yes you’re right - the beginning is quite intuitive - learning to relax and release... but that’s the very very beginning of the practice... it’s like learning to hold a paintbrush - but there’s a lot more to becoming a great painter.

 

Actually much of ZZ is anything but intuitive. And you should be able to stand and release way before starting ZZ practice altogether. The fact is that there’s a huge amount of nuance and understanding that a book can’t give - and there’s a huge amount of ‘secret’ information that a book could give - but none of them do.

 

My experience of people who have trained ZZ from books (and from the majority of teachers teaching ZZ as a system) is that they create a very stiff body, ruin the alignment of the shoulders and create stagnation all over the place. 
 

I don’t ever laugh at that, treat it lightly or call these people fools.

Actually it makes me a little angry because I see people genuinely interested and prepared to put in the work being sent on a wild goose chase - their time is wasted and their cultivation practice actually being set back rather than forwards.

 

Contrary to @Cleansox - I think progress in ZZ (even if it’s just for health) is easy to see when you know what to look for. There are some clear physiological changes that need to occur for any actual progress to happen. And the majority of people I’ve met who studied ZZ as a stand-alone ‘system’ - whether from books or from teachers, not only don’t demonstrate this progress, but actually present with what could be considered the exact opposite of progress.

 

Thats upsetting to me - because these people have essentially been conned - not just out of money (I don’t care too much about that - you can always make more money) - but more importantly out of their precious time and dedicated effort.

[Master Logray]

7 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

In Xin Yi, there's a certain angle in standing that we use that is not found in any other system. It's "wrong" by other frameworks. 

 

However, in the context of the system, it is right, and this we verify by the power and skill that comes from it.

 

According to one Taijiquan lineage, the Zhan Zhuang they do is completely different and is closer to what LKC teaches as it has a sensation of qi and is more circular with the elbows sticking out--so long as someone feels qi, it's "right". 

 

 

Xin Yi's pose is unbalanced.  It looks like having other more important purposes than health.  Is there any correctional exercises to counter balance the ZZ?

 

Taichi itself has very different views on ZZ.  Some are against it as it creates stiffness and affect "Sung".  Others treat it as basic exercise for health, and some breakdown the individual moves to be the stances.  I would say it reflects the masters' own preference than lineages.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Master Logray said:

Xin Yi's pose is unbalanced.  It looks like having other more important purposes than health.  Is there any correctional exercises to counter balance the ZZ?

 

Just to make sure you are referring to Xin Yi and not Xingyi (I am referring to Xin Yi, 心意, not 形意), tell me why you think it is unbalanced. I can tell you many reasons why what I have been trained in and teach is balanced, as can my students, but we need to make sure you understand what you are talking about and if you do know Xin Yi, show me an image of what you are referring to because we have many postures. 

 

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Taichi itself has very different views on ZZ.  Some are against it as it creates stiffness and affect "Sung".  Others treat it as basic exercise for health, and some breakdown the individual moves to be the stances.  I would say it reflects the masters' own preference than lineages.

 

Depends on your teacher and lineage.

[Master Logray]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Just to make sure you are referring to Xin Yi and not Xingyi (I am referring to Xin Yi, 心意, not 形意), tell me why you think it is unbalanced. I can tell you many reasons why what I have been trained in and teach is balanced, as can my students, but we need to make sure you understand what you are talking about and if you do know Xin Yi, show me an image of what you are referring to because we have many postures. 

 

 

 

You are right.  I am referring to Ying Yi 形意.  

 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Master Logray said:

 

You are right.  I am referring to Ying Yi 形意.  

 

 

Then there's nothing for it to be said aside from the fact that even the San Ti posture of Xingyi is also utilized in Xin Yi, but we modify it using the principles we have to follow and develop Xin Yi skill. Someone who learned Xingyi standing in Santi will look a little different compared to how we do Santi in Xin Yi. 

[Master Logray]

14 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Then there's nothing for it to be said aside from the fact that even the San Ti posture of Xingyi is also utilized in Xin Yi, but we modify it using the principles we have to follow and develop Xin Yi skill. Someone who learned Xingyi standing in Santi will look a little different compared to how we do Santi in Xin Yi. 

 

Ok, is this the one?  Xin Yi is the father of Ying Yi and the grandson is Xi Kuen?   You can read a bit of Chinese? 

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Ok, is this the one?  Xin Yi is the father of Ying Yi and the grandson is Xi Kuen?   You can read a bit of Chinese? 

 

 

I haven't watched the video yet, but will reply after. 

 

Just to clarify, Xin Yi is a system, Xingyi is another system entirely, and I have never heard of Xi Kuen. 

 

I can read and understand some Mandarin, but I am by no means fluent. 

[bax44]

I agree with some of what freefotm says in that yes I feel like zz an individual ideally should have some experience relaxing and releasing tension ahead of time. But- including myself I know a few others who practice zz all by themselves(maybe they had occasional lesson in the beginning) and have no such issues being described.

 

again, not saying they can’t happen. You can have problems walking across the street. Seems to me the mind especially in the west loves to overcomplicate and sees things through this prism of always having an end goal. Ime zz is like one of the most harmless and beneficial practices from a risk /reward perspective.and this whole thing of spiritual practices being a “minefield” and dangerous, people talk like this practice like that is crazy to me, and again I think it stems deep down from the need for “safety” in this culture. 

 

if people want to make it this staggering prospect that learning individually is that frowned upon, I think it’s just preconceptions and biases getting in the way.  I feel like intentions might be good in some cases, but in others I think it’s just another opportunity to “show off” how much they know , like a game of spiritual one upsmanship.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by bax44

[Master Logray]

13 minutes ago, bax44 said:

Ime zz is like one of the most harmless and beneficial practices from a risk /reward perspective.and this whole thing of spiritual practices being a “minefield” and dangerous, people talk like this practice like that is crazy to me, and again I think it stems deep down from the need for “safety” in this culture. 

 

Yes, if ZZ cannot be self-learn, the whole inner training thing can never be learned without a good master.

[bax44]

Supposed “teacher and master” apparently has time to laugh at my posts literally minutes after I get done writing.

 

how cute.

 

but also revealing,

[Earl Grey]

Just now, bax44 said:

Supposed “teacher and master” apparently has time to laugh at my posts literally minutes after I get done writing.

 

how cute.

 

but also revealing,

Never said I was a master. Seems your reading and comprehension skills and inference all show you are really itching and need someone to rub your ballsax44. 
 

There isn’t spiritual one upmanship here at all, it’s caution and laughing because you’re not missing the point, you’re actively ignoring every point made and self-aggrandizing yourself and your self-learning.

 

🤣

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Yes, if ZZ cannot be self-learn, the whole inner training thing can never be learned without a good master.

It hasn’t been said that Zhan Zhuang can’t be self-learned—it’s been said that it isn’t optimal. 😜

[senseless virtue]

17 minutes ago, bax44 said:

Ime zz is like one of the most harmless and beneficial practices from a risk /reward perspective.

 

Okay, so tell us what is the breadth and depth of your experience that we may calibrate the proper perspective to

your claims. What have you studied, how long, what have you accomplished, and what have you mastered?

 

21 minutes ago, bax44 said:

and this whole thing of spiritual practices being a “minefield” and dangerous, people talk like this practice like that is crazy to me, and again I think it stems deep down from the need for “safety” in this culture. 

 

If you haven't encountered any serious issues in your training, then it's safe to conclude that you haven't progressed much at all.

 

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Yes, if ZZ cannot be self-learn, the whole inner training thing can never be learned without a good master.

 

Some rudimentary foundations can be learnt, not mastered.

 

No one becomes advanced in internal training without the help of a master.

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, virtue said:

What have you studied, how long, what have you accomplished, and what have you mastered?

It will be interesting to note what he claims to accomplish when he won’t even know what to look for—I still wait on hearing what people think the difference between rooting and grounding are in relation to Zhan Zhuang.

 

14 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

If you haven't encountered any serious issues in your training, then it's safe to conclude that you haven't progressed much at all.

Pretty much—let’s also remember it appears that he still thinks Zhan Zhuang and cultivation is primarily a spiritual practice.

 

 Qi deviations and dragon sickness, psychosis, and imperceptible damage occurs to the untrained and unfamiliar dabbler who wishes to be an adept.

 

14 minutes ago, virtue said:

Some rudimentary foundations can be learnt, not mastered.

And let’s also not assume that those aforementioned foundations are good; it’s better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing for a long time with absolute certainty that it’s the right thing. Remember ChiDragon thinking Zhan Zhuang is just balancing on a board? 😜

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Master Logray]

May be some of you receive very good instruction from masters.  But I was taught ZZ many times from different masters/teachers etc.  None of them spend more than 1 minute in the "training".  Is it very different from self learning?

 

[senseless virtue]

1 minute ago, Master Logray said:

But I was taught ZZ many times from different masters/teachers etc.  None of them spend more than 1 minute in the "training".  Is it very different from self learning?

 

Your assertion lacks context.

 

Did you ever receive corrections to your form once the teachers had put your posture correct the first time? How many hours in total have you trained in each of these ZZ postures and what did you master with each?

[bax44]

 

6 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

May be some of you receive very good instruction from masters.  But I was taught ZZ many times from different masters/teachers etc.  None of them spend more than 1 minute in the "training".  Is it very different from self learning?

 

 

It’s because they know it’s really your body and awareness that does the work. As you can see from this thread, the more interference coming from supposed control freak traditionalists the worse off you’ll be.

 

Look at the panties getting ruffled over a simple book recommendation. Next thing you know you’ve got a live action role player going off on tangents about dragon psychosis and all sorts of weird shit.

 

Ahahaha.

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

May be some of you receive very good instruction from masters.  But I was taught ZZ many times from different masters/teachers etc.  None of them spend more than 1 minute in the "training".  Is it very different from self learning?

 

So far it shows your teachers are either terrible or they don’t know what they’re doing, or they just don’t want to teach you unless you’re in the inner circle.

 

8 minutes ago, bax44 said:

 

 

It’s because they know it’s really your body and awareness that does the work. As you can see from this thread, the more interference coming from supposed control freak traditionalists the worse off you’ll be.

 

Look at the panties getting ruffled over a simple book recommendation. Next thing you know you’ve got a live action role player going off on tangents about dragon psychosis and all sorts of weird shit.

 

Ahahaha.

 

Nah, you just have no qualifications to discuss this, much like a chronic porn addict and UFC fan in his mom’s basement who took a couple classes at the gym is suddenly an expert because he thinks he has the same body and knowledge professionals with training do.

 

Or perhaps more precisely, the guy with a huge stash of Asian porn who suddenly thinks he’s an expert on culture and diversity in front of actual people who’ve lived in Asia and speak the language.

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

it appears that he still thinks Zhan Zhuang and cultivation is primarily a spiritual practice.

 

 

 

And, isn't it? 

At least those zz that has that as their primary aim. 

[Master Logray]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

So far it shows your teachers are either terrible or they don’t know what they’re doing, or they just don’t want to teach you unless you’re in the inner circle.

 

 

I would say they don't really put emphasis on ZZ, not to mention some are against it.  Whether a teacher is willing to share can be seen from a broader perspective.  If they don't teach anything serious, then it is obvious.  But if they are not keen on some particular areas, then there may be other reasons.  For the inner circle problem, it is expected from all Chinese teachers.