Zhan Zhuang Standing information

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And, isn't it? 

At least those zz that has that as their primary aim. 

The definition i use as a cultivator for spirituality doesn’t necessarily mean that working with jing, qi, and shen is a sign you’re spiritual—you’re working with things that exist whether you believe them or not.

 

Granted, those who have a lot of shen and qi tend to have a stronger inclination towards spirituality and can make it spiritual, but that’s about the same as finding the spirituality in boxing from watching the Rocky Balboa series and at least a lot better than strip mall yoga wypipo giving themselves Asian names to sound more “spiritual”.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I would say they don't really put emphasis on ZZ, not to mention some are against it.  Whether a teacher is willing to share can be seen from a broader perspective.  If they don't teach anything serious, then it is obvious.  But if they are not keen on some particular areas, then there may be other reasons.  For the inner circle problem, it is expected from all Chinese teachers.

Again, I don’t know your practice or your skill, but our GM came from Hong Kong and his own story was that his Liuhebafa teacher of ten years didn’t teach him power. When he went around and eventually trained with Wang Xiangzhai, he learned what was taught wrong not just because it was deliberate, but because the old teacher didn’t know a thing at all. 
 

He eventually challenged his teacher and left after humiliating the teacher in front of all the other students for the years of false teaching and empty promises.

[Master Logray]

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

And, isn't it? 

At least those zz that has that as their primary aim. 

 

Oh this is the Chi Dragon himself.  Nice garden.   But with his age and doing such, it would be easy to be a spirit. 

[Master Logray]

26 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Again, I don’t know your practice or your skill, but our GM came from Hong Kong and his own story was that his Liuhebafa teacher of ten years didn’t teach him power. When he went around and eventually trained with Wang Xiangzhai, he learned what was taught wrong not just because it was deliberate, but because the old teacher didn’t know a thing at all. 
 

He eventually challenged his teacher and left after humiliating the teacher in front of all the other students for the years of false teaching and empty promises.

 

Sad.   Sometimes people would ask me whether a teacher is good or not.   I would recommend looking at his students.  If his students, let say inner circle, are good and even intermediate students are good.  Then it is a good teacher.   A great achiever who cannot replicates his success to students is no use.   

[Cleansox]

49 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

The definition i use as a cultivator for spirituality doesn’t necessarily mean that working with jing, qi, and shen is a sign you’re spiritual—

That is not the work you aim at with zz aimed at spiritual work. 

That would be a mistake you might do when you take a method which has another purpose, and call it spiritual. 

 

And @Master Logray, just because banned dragon is wrong about a subject, doesn't invalidate the subject itself. 

[Earl Grey]

13 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Sad.   Sometimes people would ask me whether a teacher is good or not.   I would recommend looking at his students.  If his students, let say inner circle, are good and even intermediate students are good.  Then it is a good teacher.   A great achiever who cannot replicates his success to students is no use.   

Sadly many people with great skill have no ability to teach.

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Cleansox said:

That is not the work you aim at with zz aimed at spiritual work. 

I don’t see working as qi, jing, and shen as inherently spiritual because it is based on reinforcing the paradigm that discarded them altogether as part of what constitutes a hard atheist paradigm. But again I do see jing, qi, and shen cultivation as making it easier to be spiritual, and being spiritual doesn’t mean being a saint as some people like to imply many times in many places.

[Zork]

 

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

I agree with some of what freefotm says in that yes I feel like zz an individual ideally should have some experience relaxing and releasing tension ahead of time. But- including myself I know a few others who practice zz all by themselves(maybe they had occasional lesson in the beginning) and have no such issues being described.

Again the problem isn't that you might get hurt (you might but then again you might not) but the fact that you might be wasting your time.

How long have you been standing over 40 minutes every day?

Have you developed XinYi?

Have you developed Iron shirt?

Have you developed fajin?

If the answer to the first question if over a year and the answers to the 3 next questions are negative, you have wasted your time and effort.

If the answer to the first question is less than 6 months, then we shouldn't be having this conversation in the first place because you are just starting. You haven't created the preconditions to benefit yourself or damage your body.

 

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

if people want to make it this staggering prospect that learning individually is that frowned upon, I think it’s just preconceptions and biases getting in the way.

You aren't listening. Look at the next quotes.

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Thats upsetting to me - because these people have essentially been conned - not just out of money (I don’t care too much about that - you can always make more money) - but more importantly out of their precious time and dedicated effort.

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

Actually much of ZZ is anything but intuitive. And you should be able to stand and release way before starting ZZ practice altogether. The fact is that there’s a huge amount of nuance and understanding that a book can’t give - and there’s a huge amount of ‘secret’ information that a book could give - but none of them do.

 

[freeform]

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

this whole thing of spiritual practices being a “minefield” and dangerous, people talk like this practice like that is crazy to me, and again I think it stems deep down from the need for “safety” in this culture.

That’s because you’ve probably not been exposed to a genuine system.

 

I recently made a smallish mistake in my own training and ended up bleeding from my nose and eyes.

 

I’ve known people that have died from mistakes in their practice. I’ve known people who’ve developed mental problems and so on.

 

I’m certainly not saying that you’ll have anything so serious from practicing ZZ from Lam’s books. But that’s because the details that make this stuff actually ‘work’ (beyond basic relaxation) are not revealed in books. (Often not in person either unfortunately)

 

The errors you make from practicing incorrectly will not cause damage - they will just introduce subtle incorrect qualities in your body - and should you every get the chance to train in a genuine system, you’ll have to work extra hard to undo these.

 

I know because this has happened to me!

 

I’m not sure why you feel this to be an adversarial conversation. I think if I was in your shoes I would be curious to find out more.

[rsalazar]

Awesome to see discussion on this topic reopened.

You all have inspired me to restart this after years of neglect.  

Years ago, before I had any personal instruction, I remember just relaxing into Embrace the tree posture while watching videos.  After about 15 minutes I distinctly remember the oddest feeling after finishing, that I was much bigger and expansive than my physical boundaries.  I felt much taller, as if I were 10 feet tall.  Just a very nice and strange feeling at the time, however I was not consistent and stopped this after a while.

In recent years, I have used specific ZZ postures as part of sets I've been taught, but these are only held for short periods of time between exercises.

 

I was curious if anyone has tried out the single-weighted postures in Scott Meredith's "Packing", he makes interesting claims about the efficiency of training single legged postures over standard double-weighted ma bu.  

[bax44]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

That’s because you’ve probably not been exposed to a genuine system.

 

I recently made a smallish mistake in my own training and ended up bleeding from my nose and eyes.

 

I’ve known people that have died from mistakes in their practice. I’ve known people who’ve developed mental problems and so on.

 

I’m certainly not saying that you’ll have anything so serious from practicing ZZ from Lam’s books. But that’s because the details that make this stuff actually ‘work’ (beyond basic relaxation) are not revealed in books. (Often not in person either unfortunately)

 

The errors you make from practicing incorrectly will not cause damage - they will just introduce subtle incorrect qualities in your body - and should you every get the chance to train in a genuine system, you’ll have to work extra hard to undo these.

 

I know because this has happened to me!

 

I’m not sure why you feel this to be an adversarial conversation. I think if I was in your shoes I would be curious to find out more.

 

I’ve been exposed to a genuine training “system”,(although that could be a loaded word)so you’re actually wrong there. We just disagree. I can speculate as to the reasons why my book recommendation was met with such high weirdness, but ultimately it doesn’t matter to me anymore.

 

Certain people in this thread claimed to be totally “right” and super advanced after I recommended the book. So, My bullshit meter immediately was triggered. 

 

once a person realizes that their own body/ awareness is the source of all these “high” concepts that get thrown around this forum all the time , it becomes rather silly to look at some of the stuff people believe in and go around in circles trying to validate these old beliefs/traditions to the bitter end. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Zork said:

 

Again the problem isn't that you might get hurt (you might but then again you might not) but the fact that you might be wasting your time.

How long have you been standing over 40 minutes every day?

Have you developed XinYi?

Have you developed Iron shirt?

Have you developed fajin?

If the answer to the first question if over a year and the answers to the 3 next questions are negative, you have wasted your time and effort.

If the answer to the first question is less than 6 months, then we shouldn't be having this conversation in the first place because you are just starting. You haven't created the preconditions to benefit yourself or damage your body.

 

You aren't listening. Look at the next quotes.

 

 

 

 

Blah blah blah these are all just labels and words someone gave you so that they could give you a spiritual equivalent of a black belt and keep you on the hook chasing a carrot.

 

and I’m sure you take great pride in achieving all these, which is cool, I guess. But, sorry to say, I really could care less. Would it appease you if I said I stood 8 hours a day? What’s the benchmark In your view? 

 

What if if I said I practice 1 hour a day and along with other practices I do it has transformed me? Or does that not count because it wasn’t officially documented by some “master” somewhere 3000 miles away? 

 

Do i I not get the gold star?

Edited May 17, 2020 by bax44

[senseless virtue]

I would like to apologize to @bax44. I was being way too confrontational how I addressed you.

Edited August 7, 2023 by senseless virtue

[Zork]

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

I’ve been exposed to a genuine training “system”,(although that could be a loaded word)so you’re actually wrong there.

How do you know this exactly? By all indications you haven't.

 

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

Blah blah blah these are all just labels and words someone gave you so that they could give you a spiritual equivalent of a black belt and keep you on the hook chasing a carrot.

Nice try but these are actual benchmarks and goals of yiquan. If you aren't getting there, then you aren't training properly.

 

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

and I’m sure you take great pride in achieving all these, which is cool, I guess. But, sorry to say, I really could care less. Would it appease you if I said I stood 8 hours a day? What’s the benchmark In your view?

What is the point of talking theory? Do you stand 8 hours a day in one go?

 

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

What if if I said I practice 1 hour a day and along with other practices I do it has transformed me? 

Placebo. You are wasting your time and effort like freeform said above.

If you want health, enlightenment etc there are better systems out there.

5 hours ago, bax44 said:

Or does that not count because it wasn’t officially documented by some “master” somewhere 3000 miles away? 

What does this have to do with actual physical benchmarks? No one needs to tell you that you have achieved them and "document it". If you have developed them, nobody can doubt them.

[Toni]

I have had several different masters and each one of them taught me zhan zhuang in a different way. So yes a master can help, but in the end you need to be your own master. You need to know if the practice affects your body in a positive way or not

[freeform]

9 hours ago, bax44 said:

I’ve been exposed to a genuine training “system”,

 

Oh good!

 

My mistake

 

What "system" are you part of?

 

You give off a 'Magick' sort of vibe.

 

9 hours ago, bax44 said:

Certain people in this thread claimed

 

Well as I see it - we could either get hung up about 'certain people' or discuss something that's clearly close to our hearts. You're not exactly being super polite with me - but I don't feel the need to get triggered by it. I assume you feel a little attacked or ganged up on - so I get why you're feeling defensive. But maybe move on?

 

9 hours ago, bax44 said:

I can speculate as to the reasons why my book recommendation was met with such high weirdness

 

We're no longer talking about a book recommendation. The conversation has progressed somewhat.

 

9 hours ago, bax44 said:

Blah blah blah these are all just labels and words someone gave you

 

That's a strange statement. Every complex human endeavour has their own vocabulary, their own models and understandings. Would the difference between an artery and a vein just be a carrot to entice fools to pay for medical education? Or could it be that it's in fact very useful to have this distinction?

 

You mentioned biases in one of your posts. Do you think there are no biases at work in your own interpretation of these things?

 

I have a friend who's a commercial organic tomato grower. He runs courses teaching tomato growing. Once in a while he gets irate emails from people who're angry at the amount he charges for his courses. "I've grown tomatoes for years - what more is there to learn - it's just seeds, soil and water!?" Yet what these irate people don't consider is why so many other people not only sign up for the courses but then sing its praises and grow successful businesses? Why would that be? Are they just taken in by the marketing? Or is there something else going on?

 

Beginners to any field of human endeavour often overestimate their understanding of the field. It's known as the 'Dunning–Kruger effect' and is closely tied to the 'Over Confidence Bias'. It usually takes years for them to realise the incredible breadth and depth of the subject they thought they understood (it's just seeds, soil and water). Sometimes the bias is so strong that it prevents them from ever going deeper into the subject.

 

You'll often see the more experienced members here showing just how much they don't know. As a beginner - you don't know what you don't know - as an intermediate practitioner, you start to realise just how broad and indepth the field is. And that's where you start to see some humility and respect for these arts.

[Master Logray]

What book?  Can't find that post.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

What book?  Can't find that post.

 

One of Lam Kam Chuen's books on ZZ

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Toni said:

I have had several different masters and each one of them taught me zhan zhuang in a different way. So yes a master can help, but in the end you need to be your own master.

There is no such thing as one single encompassing ZZ practice. Each school has different postures because it has different methods and goals. For example Damo Mitchel's Wuji posture is something akin to "standing in the stream" of LKC. If you "mix and match" ZZ techniques without understanding the underlying principles then you aren't accomplishing anything.

How are you supposed to figure out everything by yourself? Is there a compelling reason for you to try reinventing the wheel?

 

[bax44]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Oh good!

 

My mistake

 

What "system" are you part of?

 

You give off a 'Magick' sort of vibe.

 

 

Well as I see it - we could either get hung up about 'certain people' or discuss something that's clearly close to our hearts. You're not exactly being super polite with me - but I don't feel the need to get triggered by it. I assume you feel a little attacked or ganged up on - so I get why you're feeling defensive. But maybe move on?

 

 

We're no longer talking about a book recommendation. The conversation has progressed somewhat.

 

 

That's a strange statement. Every complex human endeavour has their own vocabulary, their own models and understandings. Would the difference between an artery and a vein just be a carrot to entice fools to pay for medical education? Or could it be that it's in fact very useful to have this distinction?

 

You mentioned biases in one of your posts. Do you think there are no biases at work in your own interpretation of these things?

 

I have a friend who's a commercial organic tomato grower. He runs courses teaching tomato growing. Once in a while he gets irate emails from people who're angry at the amount he charges for his courses. "I've grown tomatoes for years - what more is there to learn - it's just seeds, soil and water!?" Yet what these irate people don't consider is why so many other people not only sign up for the courses but then sing its praises and grow successful businesses? Why would that be? Are they just taken in by the marketing? Or is there something else going on?

 

Beginners to any field of human endeavour often overestimate their understanding of the field. It's known as the 'Dunning–Kruger effect' and is closely tied to the 'Over Confidence Bias'. It usually takes years for them to realise the incredible breadth and depth of the subject they thought they understood (it's just seeds, soil and water). Sometimes the bias is so strong that it prevents them from ever going deeper into the subject.

 

You'll often see the more experienced members here showing just how much they don't know. As a beginner - you don't know what you don't know - as an intermediate practitioner, you start to realise just how broad and indepth the field is. And that's where you start to see some humility and respect for these arts.

 

I never claimed to know anything spectacular about.. anything lol. That’s the funny part about the last page of this thread. I said “the way of energy is an amazing book on zz”(which to me an many others it is, and has had substantial benefits to people who use it as a self guide ) .

 

zz is not my main practice, but over time even just practicing it 20-1hr or 2 a day it has had quite obvious and deepening benefits. That’s all I was implying, and Why my personal experience of this is being so doubted or ignored is quite bizarre. (This part I really don’t even care about, it’s just kind of peculiar).

 

so, when I recommended the book and it was pretty much immediately looked down upon and quite arrogantly by some, I simply responded in kind. Your last paragraph is precisely why it was so obnoxious to me, because anyone who goes deep enough into this stuff realizes that they probably don’t “know” as much as they think they do,at least In an intellectualizing  way.

 

anyways , I guess I should’ve said, “FOR ME, the way of energy is a great guide to zhan zhuang, and has not harmed and has deepened and complemented my other practices over time”. Perhaps this would’ve avoided others assuming I was pretending it was the ultimate “how to” guide to “enlightenment “ lol. Who knows. 

 

Anyways ty for being respectful and I tried my best to answer likewise.

Edited May 18, 2020 by bax44

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

One of Lam Kam Chuen's books on ZZ.  

 

Just watched his YouTube on zz.   Seems normal.

[Zork]

21 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Just watched his YouTube on zz.   Seems normal.

It is a good book but it serves as an intro to LKC's specific YiQuan lineage. So if one is planning to follow another lineage or not to train with LKC himself then he/she might end up with some "bad habits" or stuff that will need to be relearned later.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Zork

[freeform]

1 hour ago, bax44 said:

Anyways ty for being respectful and I tried my best to answer likewise.

 

Much appreciated!

 

6 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Just watched his YouTube on zz.   Seems normal.

 

I've not trained with Lam or learned from his books. I've just met a number of his senior students (who run classes) - and they all built some errors into their bodies.

 

They were hoping to study with one of my teacher's seniors who used to run a class - but to their dismay, they were told that they had a lot of work to do before being ready to start at a beginner level. I think they felt offended and never returned.

[forestofclarity]

I don't know why people think that condescending comments and personal insults will make their point. I think you've done pretty well in the face of it. Typically, insults and ad hominems come when a person is unable to articulate their reasons behind their position. 

 

But the thing you are forgetting is homeostasis. Homeostasis means your body/mind adapts to specific conditions. For example, if you sit on the couch all day eating junk food, your body and mind is going to adapt to that. So when you put down the junk food or try to exercise, there is an entire echo system of physical and mental habits that will rise up to resist you. In this case, you will often face less physical and mental resistance short term if you remain as you are: laying on the couch eating bad food. Accordingly, what may feel right or natural is not right or natural-- it is just how the body/mind has adapted.

 

I've seen this time and again in various body arts classes, and of course, in myself. The teacher will show a posture, and everyone inevitably adapts the posture to match their own physical/mental habits. They end up distorting the posture, which is why you need the teacher to provide you feedback. This is why you need an element of trust--- it may "feel" wrong for some time, but once you have overcome your poor prior habits, you find how much better off you are. If you've ever quit an addictive substance, you will know exactly what I mean. 

 

 

14 hours ago, bax44 said:

[snip]

once a person realizes that their own body/ awareness is the source of all these “high” concepts that get thrown around this forum all the time , it becomes rather silly to look at some of the stuff people believe in and go around in circles trying to validate these old beliefs/traditions to the bitter end. 

[snip]

 

[bax44]

7 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I don't know why people think that condescending comments and personal insults will make their point. I think you've done pretty well in the face of it. Typically, insults and ad hominems come when a person is unable to articulate their reasons behind their position. 

 

But the thing you are forgetting is homeostasis. Homeostasis means your body/mind adapts to specific conditions. For example, if you sit on the couch all day eating junk food, your body and mind is going to adapt to that. So when you put down the junk food or try to exercise, there is an entire echo system of physical and mental habits that will rise up to resist you. In this case, you will often face less physical and mental resistance short term if you remain as you are: laying on the couch eating bad food. Accordingly, what may feel right or natural is not right or natural-- it is just how the body/mind has adapted.

 

I've seen this time and again in various body arts classes, and of course, in myself. The teacher will show a posture, and everyone inevitably adapts the posture to match their own physical/mental habits. They end up distorting the posture, which is why you need the teacher to provide you feedback. This is why you need an element of trust--- it may "feel" wrong for some time, but once you have overcome your poor prior habits, you find how much better off you are. If you've ever quit an addictive substance, you will know exactly what I mean. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. It takes awareness and being very in tune with ones own body and patterns of resistance. Personally when learning from that book, there’s a lot of small details that didn’t “feel right” until much time of practicing.

 

Again, I have nothing against having a good coach to check in with or learn from.  This whole thing doesn’t need to be an “either/or” in my opinion. theres also different personality types, lifestyles, etc.

 

one persons “enlightenment” might be being able to sleep better at night if they’re an insomniac. Another might be relief from chronic pain thus leading to more joy. These things are only quantifiable on an individual level , but I see a lot of terms and “levels” being referred to here as if those are the only benchmarks of any progress in this training. That is really absurd, and seems to be an ego game.

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Much appreciated!

 

I've not trained with Lam or learned from his books. I've just met a number of his senior students (who run classes) - and they all built some errors into their bodies.

 

They were hoping to study with one of my teacher's seniors who used to run a class - but to their dismay, they were told that they had a lot of work to do before being ready to start at a beginner level. I think they felt offended and never returned.

 

Does it mean going into a completely different system?    It would be a reasonable request if so.  If the systems are similar, then, it is not easy.   Even start from scratch again can't remove old habits.