Zhan Zhuang Standing information

[宁]

Yes, i meant that you need to become more responsible if your internal power grows. It doesn't automatically happen. But it maybe one of the best requirements...

[mantis]

I agree!

At the same time practicing that amount of time or more daily IS necessary, but INSUFFICIENT.

You need a change of heart, and a change of mind.

And understanding... you don't find that at every street's corner.

 

Peace

 

L1

 

PS: With power comes responsability, and fiew of us are ready to grow up at a faster pace.

 

lol, I doubt there is anything to worry about, it's not like it's easy to stand for 5 hours a day.

[Enishi]

I took the XSZ course with Jette in Oregon last year. The form was quite complicated, in order to do it in a precise manner it really does require close, in-depth instruction.

 

I do feel that the course was worth the price. Doing the form helped me to release some of the blocked, repressed emotions I was holding within and better understand myself.

 

Ironically enough, I stopped wanting to be John Chang after this. Looking back at it now, I'm sort of baffled as to why I was so attached to a path which appears to be the destiny of only a very few. John Chang and Wang Liping's masters SOUGHT THEM OUT.

 

As for Verdesi, I'm not really sure what to think of him at this point. Maybe he has attained the 4th neigong stage. I have no idea. Either way, I can't see any reason at the moment to go back to his system and pay thousands of dollars. What do I need to be able to burn newspapers for when I have KAP to focus on?

Edited October 7, 2009 by Enishi

[Pietro]

...

Reagarding the 70% rule I think there is a time for breakthrough and a time for rest. During the time for breakthrough one should absolutely break the 70% rule. Otherwise the development will be veeeery sloooow. But if we try to break through when the body is not ready for it, it will become unhealthy and unbalanced, and the development will stop completely.

...

 

Many people identify the water method with the tradition that uses inner dissolving as a form of meditation. But fact is that other traditions in Taoism use that meditation too. After many years I came to the conclusion that what really defines the water method respect to the more fire neo-Taoist traditions is the absolute centrality of the 70% rule.

Let us remember that while in China you had Taoism with the water method in India you had Yoga with the "practice as if your hair were on fire"-schools. Totally different approach.

 

I appreciate your effort in trying to find a middle ground between the two. I am just not sure it is such a good idea. you risk to lose both the smoothness of the nervous system, and the speed of fire. Above fire below lake, at times it is important to retain one own individuality.

[Smile]

Lots of good comments, guys.

you know I am against those hard practices that break the 70% rule.

You might reach that objective, but at what cost on your nervous system?

But I like the idea of building up the practice in separate moments during the day.

I might incorporate that.

Yes, I remember your rule

As always, my safety fuse is sitting emptiness meditation. Or doing nothing at all and taking a break.

I would have to start a topic soon on using an old tree as your teacher. Imagine, a 1,000 year old tree that can teach you a few things about Immortality.... Am i sidetracking this thread again, lol?

[Mal]

I wonder if the fact of having some new moderators means that we might be able to get some sanity by being able to ask to get, for example, this thread disentangled. Dividing the ZZ part from the DV part. Just wondering.

 

I would say this is part of the charm. I hope taobums will not become over-moderated.

 

Totally agree, although since this was a perfect opportunity to have a go at topic splitting I snapped this one.

 

Won't be doing it often as it took a bit of effort to select 30 posts over 3 pages. However it is a very good discussion that doesn't deserve to be buried in the Verdesi thread.

 

It is very easy to merge it back together (t6000) if anyone is annoyed by this split.

[Prince...]

Good job, Mal!

 

I did 20 minutes in my walk-in closet while listening to the Fearless soundtrack...been a year since I've really done any standing...did not take long for me to start shaking at all. I was feeling like a cold was coming on before I started...feel good now. Felt like I'd been in the weight room for some odd reason when I finished. I want to have another go before I do a sitting exercise and call it a night.

 

If it makes a difference, I also did some stuff from KAP while standing. I'm gonna try my best to do at least 2 sessions of 20 minutes a day and increase the time as the shaking drops off.

[mantis]

Nice, we have our own thread! What would be the recommended progression for someone beginning zhang zhuang? 5 minutes the first week, 10 the next, etc?

[Old Man Contradiction]

you know I am against those hard practices that break the 70% rule.

 

Don't forget that a lot of people could stand like a tree for hours and hours if they wanted to, but most of them give up after a couple of minutes. I know I get to a point where i'm just coasting on the pain and my arms can basically hold themselves up, I usually end up quitting because my mind wants to, not because I fell over from my body giving out.

 

Nice, we have our own thread! What would be the recommended progression for someone beginning zhang zhuang? 5 minutes the first week, 10 the next, etc?

 

Or you can add 30secs a day or every two days. or 20 secs a day. whatever you see fit.

 

A fellow student said that Yu Yong Nian's book talks about some of the more advanced things that you can do with zhan zhuang, which might interest some of you (I haven't read it). The one sifu I've met that has trained with Professor Yu is the fastest martial artist I've seen. Also, his power looks compact like a bullet that would explode on impact. He suggests standing for hours if you have the will, but minimally 20mins. And the #1 thing I learned was "how to transform an empty post standing into a real internal and physical training"... quote from Yu's site.

 

If you can get past the shaking just one time, you are home free.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[sheng zhen]

I appreciate your effort in trying to find a middle ground between the two. I am just not sure it is such a good idea. you risk to lose both the smoothness of the nervous system, and the speed of fire. Above fire below lake, at times it is important to retain one own individuality.

Maybe the 70% rule has a fractal impact... lets say during 100 days of practice you have 70 days where you nice and easy follow the 70% rule. And the rest of the time of 30 days you break the 70% rule. In a more global perspective you still follow a 70% rule

 

I think the most important thing is to be able to listen to ones own body without being fooled by psychological patterns of lacyness (or eagerness).

[Pietro]

agreed, good job, Mal!

 

Don't forget that a lot of people could stand like a tree for hours and hours if they wanted to, but most of them give up after a couple of minutes. I know I get to a point where i'm just coasting on the pain and my arms can basically hold themselves up, I usually end up quitting because my mind wants to, not because I fell over from my body giving out.

Good Point!

 

Maybe the 70% rule has a fractal impact... lets say during 100 days of practice you have 70 days where you nice and easy follow the 70% rule. And the rest of the time of 30 days you break the 70% rule. In a more global perspective you still follow a 70% rule

 

I think the most important thing is to be able to listen to ones own body without being fooled by psychological patterns of lacyness (or eagerness).

Sheng Zhen,

why do we follow the 70% rule?

Why not the 100% rule? That would still be within what you can do. Or the 99.9% rule.

 

Do you know that? Because if you don't then it is easy to overlook it.

[sheng zhen]

Sheng Zhen,

why do we follow the 70% rule?

Why not the 100% rule? That would still be within what you can do. Or the 99.9% rule.

 

Do you know that? Because if you don't then it is easy to overlook it.

Please explain why you follow the 70% rule?

 

I have not studied with the Water tradition so I dont really know. Do you neverEVER break the 70% rule? What happens to you if you do?

 

Personally I like to break and expand my own limits once in awhile. But I always spend the nessecary amout of rest, healing and integration afterwards.

Edited October 7, 2009 by sheng zhen

[Gerard]

Well BK Frantzis discusses the issue of the law of diminishing returns in his book The Power of Internal Martial Arts saying that there is a point where past it the training effects decline fast.

 

In Tim Cartmell's board he also states the same. Actually when asked about the fact that standing more than 40 mins is not productive he said the following:

 

"Because of the law of diminishing returns. There is a minimum amount of exercise needed to produce a training effect, and a point after which the training effect rapidly declines. The principle applies to all types of physical training (including standing still).

 

Take cardio training for example. It is necessary to maintain a minimum level of exertion for a minumum amount of time to produce a training effect (improve your cardiovascular capabilities). Training below this minimum level of exertion and/or duration will be a waste of time as far as conditioning is concerned.

 

There is also an optimal maximum duration of training, the length of time that produces the bulk of the training effect. Continuing past this optimal length of time will yield very little gains in CV output.

 

Simply put, jogging for 30 minutes will produce 90% of the cardio benefits you can get for one training session. After 30 minutes, the benefits of training are greatly reduced.

 

The same rule applies to strength training (you need to overload a muscle just enough to stimulate an increase in strength. Training past that point only leads to exhaustion and loss of muscle).

 

The law of diminishing returns.

 

People with far more experience at stance keeping than me determined that after 40 minutes of standing, the law of diminishing returns makes more prolonged standing practically nonproductive.

 

I suspect, in general, teachers that advocate standing for hours a day have nothing else to teach."

 

 

Personally, I feel that it what is determinant here is not how long one stands per session but how many years one practices ZZ for (aside from the law of diminishing returns).

[Prince...]

So 40 minutes seems to be the magic number? I'm not gonna say I do Yiquan exclusively, but I learned the Zhan Zhuang from Yiquan...I was taught 5 minutes/ posture= 40 minutes is better than hours of practicing my Tai Chi form...for the Qigong aspects of practicing the form. I like practicing my form because it looks cool, but in the future I hope to do it in a way that looks more like a martial art.

[Smile]

Thank you for sharing, durkhrod chogori. The problem with Tim Cartmell's thinking is that he equates ZZ with a physical exercise. I doubt he would apply the same reasoning to sleeping.

 

ZZ is not a physical exercise, it's a meditation where you completely relax your body and mind while still maintaining the posture. Relaxation while standing is the goal, while your energy will be eventually what is cultivating and holding you up. So, people would greatly benefit from standing 2, 3, or 4 hours straight, assuming that their nervous system and mind is ready. But this would fall under "how long it should take to build up your practice to that level".

[Aetherous]

Actually the training effect increases somewhat exponentially after each hour. Do some research on VO2max.

[Baguakid]

People with far more experience at stance keeping than me determined that after 40 minutes of standing, the law of diminishing returns makes more prolonged standing practically nonproductive.

 

This may be applicable if we are talking about Zhan Zhuang with the arms up, embrace the tree, or other martial type ZZ. However, in the Wuji posture, with hands at their sides, this is an incorrect statement. There are many, many types of Zhan Zhuang training. I have some I can hold only for just over a minute, others (martial) just about 2 minutes, each with a different training purpose in mind. But Wuji standing (with hands at their sides), which I am most familiar, does not adhere to the above diminishing return statement. I've stood with my teacher for 1 hour and 20 min. My teacher told me to practice for an hour, walk around and do the after practice routine, then practice for another hour, every day.

 

The purpose of Wuji in this case is as a Qigong practice, not a martial one. An energetic exercise, not a physical one. So, we are building Qi, opening Channels, and tonifying kidneys, stomach and spleen.

 

In the case of Wuji as above described, more is better.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Baguakid

[Yuen Biao]

This may be applicable if we are talking about Zhan Zhuang with the arms up, embrace the tree, or other martial type ZZ. However, in the Wuji posture, with hands at their sides, this is an incorrect statement. There are many, many types of Zhan Zhuang training. I have some I can hold only for just over a minute, others (martial) just about 2 minutes, each with a different training purpose in mind. But Wuji standing (with hands at their sides), which I am most familiar, does not adhere to the above diminishing return statement. I've stood with my teacher for 1 hour and 20 min. My teacher told me to practice for an hour, walk around and do the after practice routine, then practice for another hour, every day.

 

The purpose of Wuji in this case is as a Qigong practice, not a martial one. An energetic exercise, not a physical one. So, we are building Qi, opening Channels, and tonifying kidneys, stomach and spleen.

 

In the case of Wuji as above described, more is better.

 

As I'm led to believe the two are different ways of training the same thing; relaxation is key to both as has been addressed earlier by 'Smile'.

 

On my first visit to Beijing we were training Wuji. On my second visit we studied Zhan Zhuang at Wudangshan.

Personally I think Wuji is easier and the most natural to learn. My teacher has taught both but mainly focuses on ZZ but claims they are the same. My teacher has also spent many years in China.

 

Both aspects can equally be seen as martial and meditative (health) it depends on your skill level.

 

Tim Cartmell hasn't a clue and that's about as kind as I can be to him.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Yuen Biao

[Baguakid]

When you say Wuji, there are also different positions which come to mind. Wuji with the arms raised, wuji with the arms lowered, wuji with the feet at shoulder width and wuji with a narrower stance.

 

The theory behind the practice is most important to understand.

 

Wuji is Zhan Zhuang.

 

Agree with your statement on Tim

Edited October 7, 2009 by Baguakid

[freeform]

I really enjoy my wuji standing. I generally do about 30 minutes at the moment. I find that once a level of diffuse awareness is settled into, it becomes easy to stand...

 

Until of course I start clearing and then it becomes rather difficult - the diaphragm flutters, muscles and tendons begin to tighten and relax, or shake... lots and lots of heat and sweating - sometimes the sensory discomfort makes you want to stop - it just becomes too intense, I find that backing off during the intense moments is counter-productive. Equally, when I begin contracting and resisting, unable to open and let go, then it's counter-productive to force myself to carry on.

 

What do you guys say about standing wuji on strong magnets (a la Peter Ragnar) - is this just a gimmick or is there something to it?

[sheng zhen]

I really enjoy my wuji standing. I generally do about 30 minutes at the moment. I find that once a level of diffuse awareness is settled into, it becomes easy to stand...

Me too! I mostly do just Wuji. After 10 minutes or so with micro-correction of my posture I enter a state of relaxation and internal balance that makes it easy to stand. It feels like I am supported from within instead of using muscles to stay upright. Then I just enjoy the stillness and breathing for as long as my body takes me.

[Stigweard]

I agree with all the above comments of how essential and beneficial ZZ is. In my intro Taiji classes I only get students to do 10mins because I also have a great emphasis on various Song exercises. At our sunrise sessions we stand for 20min but when I do my own I stand for 40min.

 

Here is a great clip by our illustrious Lin Ai Wei:

 

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[Andrei]

Well BK Frantzis discusses the issue of the law of diminishing returns in his book The Power of Internal Martial Arts saying that there is a point where past it the training effects decline fast.

 

In Tim Cartmell's board he also states the same. Actually when asked about the fact that standing more than 40 mins is not productive he said the following:

 

"Because of the law of diminishing returns. There is a minimum amount of exercise needed to produce a training effect, and a point after which the training effect rapidly declines. The principle applies to all types of physical training (including standing still).

 

Take cardio training for example. It is necessary to maintain a minimum level of exertion for a minumum amount of time to produce a training effect (improve your cardiovascular capabilities). Training below this minimum level of exertion and/or duration will be a waste of time as far as conditioning is concerned.

 

There is also an optimal maximum duration of training, the length of time that produces the bulk of the training effect. Continuing past this optimal length of time will yield very little gains in CV output.

 

Simply put, jogging for 30 minutes will produce 90% of the cardio benefits you can get for one training session. After 30 minutes, the benefits of training are greatly reduced.

 

The same rule applies to strength training (you need to overload a muscle just enough to stimulate an increase in strength. Training past that point only leads to exhaustion and loss of muscle).

 

The law of diminishing returns.

 

People with far more experience at stance keeping than me determined that after 40 minutes of standing, the law of diminishing returns makes more prolonged standing practically nonproductive.

 

I suspect, in general, teachers that advocate standing for hours a day have nothing else to teach."

Personally, I feel that it what is determinant here is not how long one stands per session but how many years one practices ZZ for (aside from the law of diminishing returns).

 

I totally agree with that, also confirmed by my experience with zhan zhuang. I trained for 2 months to reach the limit of 1 hour but previously I trained for one year one hour a day in hun yuan qigong just to allow my body to adapt to one hour immobility and my mind to be focused on the exercise. I trained for one hour a day to prepare myself for a sanshou competition, then after the competition I kept the stake at 30-45 min a day which I found enough for keeping me fit energetically.

 

Never forget that the purpose of the exercise is to nourish the meridians and kidney with Yin energy from the earth. Also it generates the Yang energy in the Yang meridians and balances the two, so allways I would advocate to finish the exercise feeling good and balanced and fresh and powerful.

 

Less is more. Good rule 70% of the 100% limit when feeling pain or discomfort. The exercise is not for torturing the mind but to allow the body produce neurotransmitters and "feeling good" hormones like serotonin. If you reach pain threshold you begin to produce "stress hormones" which is not desirable.

 

This is another excellent link:

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[Old Man Contradiction]

I say the more the better. The more shaking I can do before my class, the quicker and more grounded I am. Also, the more internal training that I do within my stance, the better I perform during class. My experience shows me that the more the better. I stayed with my teacher because he's the best i've seen, coincidentally he stands for hours.

[enouch]

I say the more the better. The more shaking I can do before my class, the quicker and more grounded I am. Also, the more internal training that I do within my stance, the better I perform during class. My experience shows me that the more the better. I stayed with my teacher because he's the best i've seen, coincidentally he stands for hours.

 

 

 

Kenichi Sawei/Goto and other practioners[Wang Shu Jin] advocated standing if you really wanted internal power.Wang also advocated the single palm change from bagua and spliting the first movement from h-sing.