Pietro Posted October 10, 2009 Pietro, Not only do jing, chi, and shen have multiple meanings (big example: Frantzis' chi vs. Chi, also jing as semen versus any form of energy relating to the first two bodies), but xin does too. In Yang Jwing-Ming's books, written from a TCM and martial arts perspective, xin means the "emotional mind", relating to desires and all that, and then the yi (as in qi follows yi) is the "wisdom mind", relating to intelligence and intention. If you were talking about this stuff for an hour, did the other meaning of xin come up? Only half an hour (the rest we spoke about other stuff. Those other meanings came just as a vague reference. But we were also discussing the chinese ideogram of hsin. I thought it had two parts, a heart, and something that represented a mind above. I was told that no, it's just the heart part. So the reason to translate it as heartmind (and not with heart) is because chinese culture is less emotion-centered. "I" instead is written with the two radicals. I really need to learn chinese! I think it is an issue of language barrier. All languages use the same word for very different but kind-of related things. These distinctions aren't just nitpicking, they are really completely different things, but they are somehow analogous or related enough to merit using the same word. So there are two issues: Making proper distinctions between different meanings of the same Chinese word in order to avoid ambiguity, and actually experiencing the things the word refers to so you understand the distinction and relation on a level that is more than intellectual. Actually, as you pointed out, it is not just a matter of understanding Chinese, but understanding how different groups used the Chinese words in their own specialized way. Yikes. agreed! It's like "kan and li". different people use it to represent different practices. There is no "real" kan and li". Who did you have an hour long skype conversation with this about? PM me if you really want to know. But not with Bruce. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smile Posted October 12, 2009 Andrzej Kalisz- Zhan Zhuang Qigong- You can feel it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted October 12, 2009 I can ANSWER This! haha. Chunyi Lin trained in standing meditation yang "thunder palms" for 2 hours a day nonstop, each day, for several weeks -- at Shaolin Temple I think. He teaches this "thunder palm" standing meditation in the Level 1 !! -- There's also the standing yin sword fingers AND the standing tree or pole position with hands focused around the lower tan tien. These standing exercises are also included in the moving standing exercises -- so like modules you take part of the moving exercise and turn it into a static standing meditation. Chunyi Lin states that at beginning there should be twice to three times more standing active exercise compared to sitting passive meditation. But as you move into FULL-LOTUS (not just half) then the ratio can be reversed. Chunyi Lin states 20 minutes of full-lotus is worth 4 hours of any other practice. Standing with knees bent and hands in yin-yang feedback for 20 minutes is one thing - sitting in full-lotus for 20 minutes is another. It depends on how "steep" the full-lotus is -- if the ankles are fully on the thighs -- with the feet facing up and beyond the thighs -- just like with standing meditation the more bent your knees are the "steeper" or stronger the amplitude of the practice. The standing active exercise activates the chi -- "cultivating" it into the body so that the chi can be emitted from the hands -- while the passive sitting meditation builds up the chi. That's why at the end of sitting Yan Xin meditation the chi must be CULTIVATED by active exercises or else the harvest of chi is not used -- not stored in the body -- and just gets "lost" -- transmitted back out of the body. It's good, better and best since the harmonic resonance to create free energy from consciousness enables healing others as you heal yourself as well. Of course the blockages of emotion, nutrition and environment can be very deep since the West is the opposite of the natural tai-chi healing.... I've wondered why SFQ hasn't included standing forms too. Maybe because the drop out rate would be too high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) The standing active exercise activates the chi -- "cultivating" it into the body so that the chi can be emitted from the hands -- while the passive sitting meditation builds up the chi. That's why at the end of sitting Yan Xin meditation the chi must be CULTIVATED by active exercises or else the harvest of chi is not used -- not stored in the body -- and just gets "lost" -- transmitted back out of the body. Sitting builds, standing and exercises activate? And the qi is only stored once activated? Hrm....interesting... Edited October 12, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Edited October 12, 2009 by drewhempel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted October 12, 2009 This article on standing posture exercise to create "Whole Body Movement" calls it an INVERTED PYRAMID which is the opposite of the full-lotus pyramid.... and also that subconsciously standing is not motionless but a pendulum that increases in power as the nervous system has to constantly adjust to maintain balance.... http://getfitblog.biz/effects-of-whole-bod...tic-perception/ Sitting builds, standing and exercises activate? And the qi is only stored once activated? Hrm....interesting... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Man Contradiction Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) This is a really really good article by a great teacher about many mistakes and misunderstandings in regards to zhan zhuang (highly recommended): http://www.i-chuan.net/download/ZhanZhuang...Perspective.pdf One point he teaches that I really appreciate is that the student should first look at his immediate and actual experience of the body, and from there he can understand the traditional teachings. Edited October 12, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted October 13, 2009 This is a really really good article by a great teacher about many mistakes and misunderstandings in regards to zhan zhuang (highly recommended): http://www.i-chuan.net/download/ZhanZhuang...Perspective.pdf One point he teaches that I really appreciate is that the student should first look at his immediate and actual experience of the body, and from there he can understand the traditional teachings. Very good article! I also like that he say the weight should go down in front of the spine instead of the back: Deep Front Line of the Anatomy Trains! When he write "I", it also means "Yi", right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted October 13, 2009 This is a great Thread. Thanks everyone. Pietro and anyone else, could you say more about the Hsin or Heart mind? I am a bit obsessed with this Idea at the moment. I have been sort of collecting references to it in the various traditions over the last few years. I cant really quote them as I am not home for a bit, but it seems like Every tradition talk's about awakening to the Hearts Intelligence, The heart being the centre of the mind, The subtle heart being the greatest Organ of perception... Following these various instructions has been what has given me most of my abilities... I always want to learn more Would you mind telling us about Meeting each other from the Heart Mind? And what do the Buddhists call the Heart Mind? Seth! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuen Biao Posted October 13, 2009 There is a discussion on the Shaolin forum about the "high stance" posture -- like the tree-pole stance -- and the "low stance" with knees more bent and hands around the lower tan tien. It's stated the higher stance is better for the beginner with no master supervision and as progress continues the lower stance is adopted. Again the more the knees are bent the faster the energy is cultivated -- which makes sense. Since the trip to Wudangshan we have now begun to adopt lower stances in Zhan Zhuang. However, we still hold the hands higher up and infront of the chest. Another point on the mind, does anyone run the MCO when training ZZ? Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted October 13, 2009 This is a great Thread. Thanks everyone. Pietro and anyone else, could you say more about the Hsin or Heart mind? I am a bit obsessed with this Idea at the moment. I have been sort of collecting references to it in the various traditions over the last few years. I cant really quote them as I am not home for a bit, but it seems like Every tradition talk's about awakening to the Hearts Intelligence, The heart being the centre of the mind, The subtle heart being the greatest Organ of perception... Following these various instructions has been what has given me most of my abilities... I always want to learn more Would you mind telling us about Meeting each other from the Heart Mind? And what do the Buddhists call the Heart Mind? Seth! I've been told that the heart (middle DT) is the 'base' of the crystal palace. Feel/sense physically and you engage the heart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted October 13, 2009 Would you mind telling us about Meeting each other from the Heart Mind? Hi Seth, I cannot speak about the hsin at this time. I am not ready, sorry. What I can tell you is that when two Taoists greet, and they bring together the right hand as in a fist, and the left wrapped around... you know, the formal greeting. Well in that moment they both should "open" their Heart-Mind. And in this way "there is no issue on who is above and who is below, as it obvious to everyone how much each of the two is able to access the heart mind." Does this satisfy your intellectual curiosity? Why don't you keep an eye on workshops from Bruce, and see when he is teaching about the heart mind. Unfortunately those are very rare teachings. And also quite advanced, so in most workshop he either will not teach them, or only teach them to the advanced students (to which I do not belong). I was lucky that I participated in a workshop in which he was just teaching about the hsin. But as time goes by he should move more and more in this direction. Another point on the mind, does anyone run the MCO when training ZZ? yeah. you keep the tongue touching the palate. But the attention is not on the mco (usually, at least) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted October 13, 2009 Hi Seth, I cannot speak about the hsin at this time. I am not ready, sorry. What I can tell you is that when two Taoists greet, and they bring together the right hand as in a fist, and the left wrapped around... you know, the formal greeting. Well in that moment they both should "open" their Heart-Mind. And in this way "there is no issue on who is above and who is below, as it obvious to everyone how much each of the two is able to access the heart mind." Does this satisfy your intellectual curiosity? Why don't you keep an eye on workshops from Bruce, and see when he is teaching about the heart mind. Unfortunately those are very rare teachings. And also quite advanced, so in most workshop he either will not teach them, or only teach them to the advanced students (to which I do not belong). I was lucky that I participated in a workshop in which he was just teaching about the hsin. But as time goes by he should move more and more in this direction. yeah. you keep the tongue touching the palate. But the attention is not on the mco (usually, at least) No problem and thanks. When I get home in a week I will Start a thread on the subject with some of my favourite quotes and stuff... Unfortunatly I dont think BKF comes to Aus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted October 13, 2009 No problem and thanks. When I get home in a week I will Start a thread on the subject with some of my favourite quotes and stuff... Unfortunatly I dont think BKF comes to Aus No, but would it be too much to fly to california once a year? He charges less in the US Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 13, 2009 I've been told that the heart (middle DT) is the 'base' of the crystal palace. Feel/sense physically and you engage the heart. I've noticed that connection at some depth of longevity breathing - where you have to master the transition between inhale and exhale smoothly, letting the diaphragm relax, heart gently suspended but completely let go of... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted October 13, 2009 Is Taoist Hsin the same thing as Buddhism's Heart-Drops? I only recently found out Buddhism's Heart Drops are apparently a 'real' phenomenon that can be accessed (and I guess manipulated) instead of just a category label. I also wonder if it is similar to the "intelligence" the Hearthmath program found in the actual, physical heart. Also...what is the Crystal Palace? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted October 13, 2009 This is a great Thread. Thanks everyone. Pietro and anyone else, could you say more about the Hsin or Heart mind? I am a bit obsessed with this Idea at the moment. I have been sort of collecting references to it in the various traditions over the last few years. I cant really quote them as I am not home for a bit, but it seems like Every tradition talk's about awakening to the Hearts Intelligence, The heart being the centre of the mind, The subtle heart being the greatest Organ of perception... Following these various instructions has been what has given me most of my abilities... I always want to learn more Would you mind telling us about Meeting each other from the Heart Mind? And what do the Buddhists call the Heart Mind? Seth! I posted the complete article by B.K. Frantzis that I referenced above here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=121552 It's the most he has ever said about the heart-mind in print. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted October 13, 2009 I posted the complete article by B.K. Frantzis that I referenced above here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=121552 It's the most he has ever said about the heart-mind in print. Awesome! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Man Contradiction Posted October 13, 2009 Very good article! I also like that he say the weight should go down in front of the spine instead of the back: Deep Front Line of the Anatomy Trains! When he write "I", it also means "Yi", right? yeah I think so. His list of teachers is rather impressive too, everyone from Wang Xiangzhai's daughter and Professor Yu to Chen Xiaowang, I really respect this sifu. I highly recommend his other free articles, I haven't read the ones for sale yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that Posted October 14, 2009 When a westerner is talking of the mind and using body language to also express himself he points to his head. When a Chinese born person talks of the mind and uses body language he points to his heart(center chest as opposed to the physical heart I should say). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted October 14, 2009 The trick to deal with ZZ is the ability to be able to relax 100%. That's it. Qi will manage the rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 14, 2009 This article on standing posture exercise to create "Whole Body Movement" calls it an INVERTED PYRAMID which is the opposite of the full-lotus pyramid.... and also that subconsciously standing is not motionless but a pendulum that increases in power as the nervous system has to constantly adjust to maintain balance.... http://getfitblog.biz/effects-of-whole-bod...tic-perception/ hehe...I have a soloflex wbv that I zz & stretch on sitting is interesting too, most...beneficial it seems at the lower revs, simply because of where it resonates the spine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted October 14, 2009 hehe...I have a soloflex wbv that I zz & stretch on sitting is interesting too, most...beneficial it seems at the lower revs, simply because of where it resonates the spine. Interesting. Can you tell us a little more about this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) sure thing bro - what would you like to know? I heard a couple people around here talking about vib platforms a while back and I did some digging and found the soloflex one wicked cheap, so I snapped it up. dial is measured in Gs, as if the vibes somehow mimic gravitational effects? anyway, the higher settings are just too much, they buzz the shit out of ya. I like starting off near the bottom of the scale and (over time in sesh) slowly edge it up until its enough, then slowly back it down at intervals, and each backing down gets more and more subtle. it goes well below the scale as noted on the dial, that area is good when sitting, esp on the way back down on the dial. I like doing kunlun1 after working with that thing - its like being shaken and then stirred...or vice versa... Edited October 14, 2009 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted October 14, 2009 sure thing bro - what would you like to know? I heard a couple people around here talking about vib platforms a while back and I did some digging and found the soloflex one wicked cheap, so I snapped it up. dial is measured in Gs, as if the vibes somehow mimic gravitational effects? anyway, the higher settings are just too much, they buzz the shit out of ya. I like starting off near the bottom of the scale and (over time in sesh) slowly edge it up until its enough, then slowly back it down at intervals, and each backing down gets more and more subtle. it goes well below the scale as noted on the dial, that area is good when sitting, esp on the way back down on the dial. I like doing kunlun1 after working with that thing - its like being shaken and then stirred...or vice versa... Cool! I remember playing with one of these machines... But I didn't have enough time to really test out my body's response to it. I noticed that standing and making small internal movements could kind of 'direct' the vibration. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fascia network. I can imagine doing standing on it over time would increase internal subtle awareness... Thanks Joe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
