Zhan Zhuang Standing information

[Earl Grey]

29 minutes ago, Toni said:

In zhan zhuang do u think it is good to pull shoulders a little bit back? Some recommend it bc many people have rounded shoulders and bad posture habits

 

No. This creates tension. 

[bax44]

“The way of energy” is an amazing book on standing imo. 

[Toni]

I agree it creates tension. But many recommend it when walking or standing bc they say people have forward posture problems nowadays. They even say you feel more optimistic when doing it. I will try this again today when i go out to walk, just a little bit of course, in order to avoid too much tension.

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Toni said:

I agree it creates tension. But many recommend it when walking or standing bc they say people have forward posture problems nowadays. They even say you feel more optimistic when doing it. I will try this again today when i go out to walk, just a little bit of course, in order to avoid too much tension.

 

You can listen to all sorts of people, but in the end, look at their level of skill and martial/health/strength accomplishments. 

 

I speak from a Xin Yi perspective, and can tell you that you can listen to everyone else--but you won't get the benefits you're hoping to get, even if you read LKC's book. 

[bax44]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

You can listen to all sorts of people, but in the end, look at their level of skill and martial/health/strength accomplishments. 

 

I speak from a Xin Yi perspective, and can tell you that you can listen to everyone else--but you won't get the benefits you're hoping to get, even if you read LKC's book. 

 

Not sure what the eye roll is for. Seems to me You have a real “need” to be right don’t you? I read the book and have pretty much just followed it as my guide and it’s been invaluable.

 

Wether you like it or not, there are people who are capable of learning these things by themselves and listening to their own bodies as opposed to “experts”. 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, bax44 said:

Not sure what the eye roll is for

 

To roll my eyes, that's why. 

 

1 minute ago, bax44 said:

Seems to me You have a real “need” to be right don’t you?

 

I don't "need" to be right--I just am! 

 

1 minute ago, bax44 said:

I read the book and have pretty much just followed it as my guide and it’s been invaluable.

 

Good for you! I didn't say the book was shit, I just think that it's overrated as I also believe that self-learning isn't a good idea for cultivation practices. 

 

2 minutes ago, bax44 said:

Wether you like it or not, there are people who are capable of learning these things by themselves and listening to their own bodies as opposed to “experts”. 

 

There's nothing wrong with being happy with your practice. You can feel good about it and that's fine! But when these self-taught individuals start making themselves equals amongst those of us with formal training, that is when someone like me steps in and says, "Okay, show me your skill" and this is where seeing when someone is harming themselves potentially is important. 

 

FYI I am not here to argue, but to assist people if they want it. Otherwise, I'm the guy at the gym who lets the instructors know that some neophyte is about to injure himself, and I end up calling it 100% of the time. 

[bax44]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

 

To roll my eyes, that's why. 

 

 

I don't "need" to be right--I just am! 

 

 

Good for you! I didn't say the book was shit, I just think that it's overrated as I also believe that self-learning isn't a good idea for cultivation practices. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with being happy with your practice. You can feel good about it and that's fine! But when these self-taught individuals start making themselves equals amongst those of us with formal training, that is when someone like me steps in and says, "Okay, show me your skill" and this is where seeing when someone is harming themselves potentially is important. 

 

FYI I am not here to argue, but to assist people if they want it. Otherwise, I'm the guy at the gym who lets the instructors know that some neophyte is about to injure himself, and I end up calling it 100% of the time. 

 

Haha ok. Well you’re allowed to have that belief. But that’s all it is. But I guess if it helps you to feel not equal and superior that’s cool, I guess.

 

i could care less about any of that really. Something either works or doesn’t . The book flat out tells how to progress if you do the work, and that’s really all I’m interested in, personally.

 

if others want to overcomplicate it for themselves then they can have at it.

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, bax44 said:

Haha ok. Well you’re allowed to have that belief. But that’s all it is. But I guess if it helps you to feel not equal and superior that’s cool, I guess.

 

Oh, I didn't say I was superior--I am saying that I am qualified to talk about Zhan Zhuang as a professional, not just someone who is an adept in my Xin Yi lineage (Yi Quan and Liuhebafa, and already a senior instructor). 

 

6 minutes ago, bax44 said:

i could care less about any of that really. Something either works or doesn’t . The book flat out tells how to progress if you do the work, and that’s really all I’m interested in, personally.

 

Let me be clear that I am not shitting on LKC, I do recommend his book as a supplemental practice to people, and even to beginners. It's fine, but for the level of self-aggrandizing that I see on this forum for people who read it or just watched a YouTube video, this is what makes me roll my eyes.

 

To put it into context, I once met a guy who came up with his own fighting style by watching Ryu in Street Fighter and he had students, then tried to challenge us. You can imagine how well that went. 

 

6 minutes ago, bax44 said:

if others want to overcomplicate it for themselves then they can have at it.

 

Here's where the complications come: let's look at the LKC book as a little guide for beginners and reference for advanced people to check out as parallel to learning piano (to borrow @freeform's analogy). You could learn something from it, yes, and you just might make something nice. But when you meet someone who is a trained professional and has teaching qualifications, they can see things and comment on it credibly. So where I come from isn't to shit on other people, it's to prevent injuries and also to humble those who start making weird claims or adding stuff like meditating on the MDT or UDT while standing then claim they made it up on their own and didn't get it from a teacher. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Earl Grey

[senseless virtue]

39 minutes ago, bax44 said:

I read the book and have pretty much just followed it as my guide and it’s been invaluable.

 

28 minutes ago, bax44 said:

The book flat out tells how to progress if you do the work, and that’s really all I’m interested in, personally.

 

Reminds me of a Ghanaian Bible-thumber who very often began his arguments "Bible says..."

[bax44]

17 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

 

Reminds me of a Ghanaian Bible-thumber who very often began his arguments "Bible says..."

 

Some of you here really make some very strange connections and insinuate things that aren’t even remotely relevant. Because I said the book was a great way to learn standing meditation diesnt equate to worshipping it. You might need to get off the computer, I think. Lol.

 

only on this forum could a simple book recommendation be over analyzed and turned into something that it isn’t. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by bax44

[Earl Grey]

19 minutes ago, bax44 said:

 

Some of you here really make some very strange connections and insinuate things that aren’t even remotely relevant. Because I said the book was a great way to learn standing meditation diesnt equate to worshipping it. You might need to get off the computer, I think. Lol.

 

only on this forum could a simple book recommendation be over analyzed and turned into something that it isn’t. 

 

 

It was hyperbole on his part from what I read, dude. That’s why I found it hilarious. You take yourself waaaaaay too seriously, bruh.

[bax44]

Says the guy who spent 4 posts over explaining himself In relation to a book recommendation.

 

cool story, bruh.

Edited May 16, 2020 by bax44

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, bax44 said:

Says the guy who spent 4 posts over explaining himself In relation to a book recommendation.

 

cool story, bruh.

Only because the guy who was too butthurt about me referencing LKC thought I was making a jab at him! 😂

[Zork]

1 hour ago, bax44 said:

 

Not sure what the eye roll is for. Seems to me You have a real “need” to be right don’t you? I read the book and have pretty much just followed it as my guide and it’s been invaluable.

 

Wether you like it or not, there are people who are capable of learning these things by themselves and listening to their own bodies as opposed to “experts”. 

It is ok as an introduction to ZZ and has some little advanced stuff but that is it. It can get you to a point but afterwards you are on your own. We know one guy who has advanced just by standing and meditation but he trail-blazed most of the way and he was very talented to find out many things by himself.

So i don't get your angst. The book is good no doubt. Will it take you far by itself? No it won't, because that is not it's purpose.

[bax44]

10 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Only because the guy who was too butthurt about me referencing LKC thought I was making a jab at him! 😂

 

Uh huh.  lol.

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, Toni said:

In zhan zhuang do u think it is good to pull shoulders a little bit back? Some recommend it bc many people have rounded shoulders and bad posture habits

Most zz comes with guidlines, follow those and your shoulders will sink to a functional position over time. 

If you are not sure, get corrected by someone who knows what they are doing. 

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, Toni said:

 people have forward posture problems nowadays. They even say you feel more optimistic when doing it. 

Yes,.... 

True, and working with your posture and movement patterns is one great option when working on your emotions. 

There is more to it though, and overdoing it might become a problem in its own right. 

[bax44]

14 minutes ago, Zork said:

It is ok as an introduction to ZZ and has some little advanced stuff but that is it. It can get you to a point but afterwards you are on your own. We know one guy who has advanced just by standing and meditation but he trail-blazed most of the way and he was very talented to find out many things by himself.

So i don't get your angst. The book is good no doubt. Will it take you far by itself? No it won't, because that is not it's purpose.

 

There is no angst lol. I simply recommended the book and for whatever reason that caused a resident guru to take offense and go on the offensive  and used it as an opportunity to let everyone know how advanced he was.

 

i don’t proclaim to be super advanced or a master or enlightened but I disagree with you. I think if someone followed the recommendations in there diligently it could take someone as far as the want to go. (I’m not sure how we are quantifying this, but in my experience it’s the real deal). 

Simpler is sometimes better.

 

of course having a teacher is great too if you can find one. But I’ve never understood the people who act like no one can do this stuff on their own. It reeks of arrogance to me, and makes person feel like they “need” a more “advanced” person.. (usually to the more “advanced” spiritual persons benefit- aka financially ) Not always true.

Edited May 16, 2020 by bax44

[Zork]

22 minutes ago, bax44 said:

i don’t proclaim to be super advanced or a master or enlightened but I disagree with you. I think if someone followed the recommendations in there diligently it could take someone as far as the want to go. (I’m not sure how we are quantifying this, but in my experience it’s the real deal). 

Simpler is sometimes better.

You are free to disagree but the main suggestion in the book of standing just 20 minutes a day every day, won't get you anywhere. That is a fact.

 

25 minutes ago, bax44 said:

of course having a teacher is great too if you can find one. But I’ve never understood the people who act like no one can do this stuff on their own.

Did you miss the part that i told you that we know ONE guy who did exactly that? He is the exception to the rule. Most won't get anywhere with the book alone. You are free to give it a shot and prove yourself an exception too.

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, bax44 said:

Because I said the book was a great way to learn standing meditation diesnt equate to worshipping it.

 

Becuz LKC sez fam got da powa an' Da Way of Energi sez u can lern sum on ur own, ther iz muh authoritty an lotsa powa. rspect dat you homie?

 

peace

[bax44]

7 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Becuz LKC sez fam got da powa an' Da Way of Energi sez u can lern sum on ur own, ther iz muh authoritty an lotsa powa. rspect dat you homie?

 

peace

 

Right. That’s what I thought.

[bax44]

35 minutes ago, Zork said:

You are free to disagree but the main suggestion in the book of standing just 20 minutes a day every day, won't get you anywhere. That is a fact.

 

Did you miss the part that i told you that we know ONE guy who did exactly that? He is the exception to the rule. Most won't get anywhere with the book alone. You are free to give it a shot and prove yourself an exception too.

 

He uses the 20 min as a beginning recommendation Of course it’s not meant as a permanent thing, lol. He also makes it clear the first two poses are just for beginners, before getting to the more advanced exercises.  

 

You know one guy in the history of the universe huh? Who’s keeping track of this stuff? Who benefits from keeping this ridiculous type of belief alive?

 

Anyways  cool. Like I said this stupid belief that people can’t do anything on their own and need a more “enlightened “ being to hold their hand the whole way is childish and beneficial usually to only one party. I never said teachers weren’t useful, but ultimately everyone’s on their own, as it should be. 

 

Lots of insecurity in here over this book lol.  Why is that.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by bax44

[Cleansox]

58 minutes ago, bax44 said:

 

Lots of insecurity in here over this book lol.  Why is that.

 

At least it seems to be a book people have read. 

[freeform]

Bad ZZ is a lot worse for internal development than no ZZ (assuming there’s a reasonable dedication to practice)

 

Incorrect practice of ZZ leads to a bunch of incorrect qualities in the body that need to be corrected before any real development can even start.
 

‘Bad ZZ’ is not exclusively the result self-directed practice - many teachers teach it incorrectly. But I’ve met only a very few self-directed ZZ practitioners that haven’t set themselves back.
 

1 hour ago, bax44 said:

But I’ve never understood the people who act like no one can do this stuff on their own. It reeks of arrogance to me

That makes no sense. Would you trust a surgeon who learned surgery from a book? Would you trust taking your kid to a teacher who’s only read a book on their subject?

 

You can figure out all kinds of stuff on your own or through books - but do you really expect to be better a potter or pianist or painter through book learning than someone who’s apprenticed to someone who dedicated their life to the art?

 

I think the arrogance is on the part of the book learner who thinks he or she has even a fraction of the experience of someone who has direct experience.

[bax44]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

Bad ZZ is a lot worse for internal development than no ZZ (assuming there’s a reasonable dedication to practice)

 

Incorrect practice of ZZ leads to a bunch of incorrect qualities in the body that need to be corrected before any real development can even start.
 

‘Bad ZZ’ is not exclusively the result self-directed practice - many teachers teach it incorrectly. But I’ve met only a very few self-directed ZZ practitioners that haven’t set themselves back.
 

That makes no sense. Would you trust a surgeon who learned surgery from a book? Would you trust taking your kid to a teacher who’s only read a book on their subject?

 

You can figure out all kinds of stuff on your own or through books - but do you really expect to be better a potter or pianist or painter through book learning than someone who’s apprenticed to someone who dedicated their life to the art?

 

I think the arrogance is on the part of the book learner who thinks he or she has even a fraction of the experience of someone who has direct experience.

 

Nothing worse than spiritual "professionals". Yes I think that theres definitely a place for guidance and teaching, Ive already said that. people can get into trouble of course but thats why he says to proceed slowly, as in anything, you dont get better by rushing.

 

The fact though that a book recommendation can be so thoroughly denegrated by people here who apparently feel the need to puff their chest out about how advanced they are is pretty gross. furthermore, anyone who claims to be "right" about things such as this and comes across as  dictatorial in their pronouncements is someone who has the potential to do far more damage to someone than any amount of sloppy zhan zhuang.For instance the way earl grey came across was offputting enough to instinctively go in the other direction. I highly doubt someone who really knows the score would present themselves in such a manner.

 

Newsflash: human bodies know how to naturally stand. They may have forgotten due to the nature of the culture.But,This isnt something like rocket science. Given time and patience an individual learns to make micro adjustments and relax more fully into the stance,letting go. Its an intuitive process.

 

Theres also tons of people who have practiced this stuff mostly solo and make great progress. The way its being presented here as being impossible or whatever is totally disingenous. Let me guess, Youre a "teacher", right?

Edited May 16, 2020 by bax44