Alcohol since we can remember

[ralis]

Don't you have some poker to play? Your subjectivity is relative to your personal insecurities.

 

Do you honestly believe such attacks further positive discourse? In general, your responses are emotionally charged and usually don't follow the points being discussed.

 

What does poker have to do with anything, except you have some bias against poker players! What other prejudices do you live by? Seems as though your concept of being unlimited is very limited!

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Your stubborn self-deception is so perfectly smoker-talk. But you can't see behind your illusion unless you've read that book. So please do me the favor! It is cheap and the short version is great.

 

Really, this is so classical. Many smokers want to test themselves whether they're addicted and pause for some time, and after one or several months they say OK, I made it, I'm not addicted, I can stop whenever I want, I'm totally in control, so now I can have a cigarette every now and then without worry. And then this cig tastes especially well. And of course no cig is really a pleasant experience, which you notice with your very first one. But smokers talk about good taste, because the illusion is working. In your case, the stronger ones probably taste good and the light ones bad because after so much time you need a higher dose of nicotine.

 

The only (also simply logical) way to be a non-smoker is not to smoke at all. You become a non-smoker the moment you smoked your LAST cigarette EVER, and the problem is that only death can verify this 100%. Before that it's just nearing 100%. So please don't be silly and tell me you're not a smoker when you smoke, while I am a non-smoker because I have never in my life smoked anything. ... Well... except tires maybe.

 

The Natural American Spirit Website is funny. They present themselves as ethical by telling you not to begin to smoke if you haven't yet. But they sell cigarettes. Marketing is deeply psychological and pretty nasty. And tobacco marketing is to a great deal reverse-psychological out of necessity to cope with the governmental sanctions.

 

 

Let me ask you this: If you only occasionally smoke a cigarette, why at all? How comes that I never in my life have felt the necessity to smoke a cig, but you did/do?

 

 

 

Very wise and perceptive words, Hardyg.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Do you honestly believe such attacks further positive discourse? In general, your responses are emotionally charged and usually don't follow the points being discussed.

 

What does poker have to do with anything, except you have some bias against poker players! What other prejudices do you live by? Seems as though your concept of being unlimited is very limited!

ralis

 

Yeah, your right, I'm a limited, incoherent ignoramus. Please talk to someone else. Your on ignore.

 

 

Really? Please give some references for this phenomenon. Even if true, it does not really justify the use of tobacco, unless you are just using it as a rationalization to back up your need to use tobacco.

 

LOL!

 

Your right... I am as you see me, completely and totally. I'm that person you think I am... always have been.

 

Your perception is god. bye.

 

 

 

Will you read it?

yes/no

why?/why not?

 

 

No, I won't. Because I don't have an addiction, you are projecting.

 

Have a great life!!

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

OK, back to alcohol...

 

Alcohol and the spiritual life are basically okay, I believe abstaining is a better choice on the spiritual path.

 

If you

 

-can truly "take it or leave it", and leave it at least as much as you take it,

 

-can share convivially with friends, one or two alcoholic drinks,

 

-have gone and do go long periods of time (several months) or more without drinking,

 

-never 'need' to have a drink

 

-really drink alcohol pretty infrequently, no more than once or twice a month in the above manner,

 

You are probably well established on your spiritual path and drinking alcohol is not a problem...

 

 

 

However, if you ever

 

-"need" a drink because something happened or didn't happen,

 

-regularly drink alcohol to relax or "unwind",

 

-get drunk or close to drunk, and you're over 25,

 

-have consequences that cause regret or difficulty, such as buzzed or drunken behavior saying things you wish you hadn't, send 'dre-mail' or texts, phone calls, etc., or post things on an internet forum that you wouldn't normally say,

 

-use alcohol to do anything: get to sleep, relax around people, deal with stress or overwhelming emotion, make love,

 

-'self-medicate' with alcohol to cover up an uncomfortable feeling, emotion or situation.

 

-drink regularly more than once a week,

 

Then you are drinking alcohol in a way that is detrimental to your life and spiritual path.

 

 

Here's the thing, worthy of being discussed at length in it's own topic:

 

Human beings have an incredible innate capacity for self-delusion.

 

 

This is especially true of those on the spiritual path, and of course, being deluded, don't realize it themselves.

 

Alcohol can be tricky and seductive, often users in unhealthy patterns with it are in denial and unable to see how it is a detriment. In the above, I am not talking about true alcoholic behavior, but it is a slippery slope from the above behavior to being dependent or 'abusing' alcohol. And one usually lies to oneself the whole tome it's happening.

[BigJonMud]

I've just this week started training with wine in the daytime up the local mountain.

A couple of times per week, i'l have a bottle or 2 by the lake or in the hills..

 

Every spring I crave herbal wines, or saki.

 

My practice then explodes into yet another far deeper level of understanding.

[宁]

the answer is NO

 

but it has to come from UNDERSTANDING

you need to understand the deeper effects it has on you

 

it also depends on what your goals are, it always is this way.

at certain levels is hazardous, at others is plain toxic.

at certain levels it doesn't count, at others it's a big issue.

 

for a complete master or a complete novice, i think it doesn't matter.

for a beginner that wants to make some progress, it may matter the world to him.

 

could we take our western habits and integrate them with eastern practices?

this is the main question.

it's like a chinese opium addict would ask you if he is allowed to keep his addiction,

but he wants to be saved by Jesus

a hippie would say YES!, but would a specialist (priest) agree?

 

[z00se]

The smoking / drinking combo can actually be great for your health. Smoking helps you lose weight, by slowly pulling the fat out of your belly etc and into your heart/veins. Then you drink alcohol which thins the blood so that it can still run freely through your veins. Thats why you NEED both =]

 

I get all out trashed from time to time. It's great. It's the biggest adventure, i feel so happy, meet heaps of new people am super sociable and makes for a most memorable night (at least the first half . Theres nights i've had drinking lots of alcohol that have been unforgettable and there have been meditation experiences that have been unforgettable. Alcohol give you the fun straight away, then you pay for it the next couple of days. Deep meditation you have to pay for it the first few days by sitting doing nothing, then you get the cool experiences. They're kind of like opposites in this way i feel.

 

However, if you ever

 

-"need" a drink because something happened or didn't happen,

 

-regularly drink alcohol to relax or "unwind",

 

-get drunk or close to drunk, and you're over 25,

 

If you have a real bad day feel sad or whatever, ur mates come around and get drunk and you go out and have a good dance your not feeling bad any more. Maybe the next day you have a headache but you aren't thinking about whatever made you sad before, and even though alcohol hasn't fixed the problem it's at least a day and a half away from what happened after by the time you recovered and u're halfway over it already. It's another winding course, a different path - perhaps even quicker and more direct

 

Alot of people say it's ok if you have 1-2 beers with some friends but that just makes me feel crap. Then i DO have a desire for more. I'll save up all those 1-2 beers untill i got 15 then use em all at once and have a decent crack where i can enjoy myself. 1-2 beers isn't fun at all i'd rather none.

 

Smoking is not fun at the start? (someone said?) If it wasn't fun at the start why have so many people started smoking... it's not just because of the marketing material, it's because it's fun! If you've smoked a pack a day for 10 years then its hard to breath it's not fun any more, or when ur dying cos u don't have one it's not fun. But if you can smoke here and there i think it's great. Can sort out many problems in your life at some emotional time, give you a 'breath of fresh air' in a moody moment to say what is best to say and save yourself some future burden.

 

Also half the reason people think it's bad is because of all the marketing material telling you it was bad. I wonder if a higher percentage of smokers have died from cigarettes since all the advertising about how bad it is... all the extra guilt smokers face when they have a cig, and the mind over matter thing, them thinking it's really bad! It is bad, but not as bad as it's made out to be. Especially for low smokers 2-3 a day even i think is ok. I'd love that much but i only have 1-2 smoking nights a month due to my nagging wife

 

Human beings have an incredible innate capacity for self-delusion.

This is especially true of those on the spiritual path, and of course, being deluded, don't realize it themselves

I think people on the spiritual path are quicker to realise it than anyone else. I know when i drink... if i'm meditating alot sometimes it can set me back 4-5 days and my tight muscle tightens up more for a couple of days... but it's still worth it. I'm not deluded i know what it does to me but i weigh up the pros and cons and it is worth it to me.

 

Nobody should judge others and feel they are superiour because they don't drink or smoke. They're probably sitting at the computer stuffing themselves with macdonnalds. And the person on the 'perfect' diet with the perfect exercise and meditation schedule who never lets themselves have any desire so they can never be dissapointed if it's taken off them -- In my opionion should loosen up. Relax and live a little. Theres so many great things around i want to try them ALL if they are good or bad for me. As long as i dont' get stuck only on any single 1 then i think they're all great. Depriving yourself of pleasure i don't belive is the way of the TAO, it's embracing and bathing and tasting all life has to offer. To do so one can learn so much more.

 

Let me ask you this: If you only occasionally smoke a cigarette, why at all? How comes that I never in my life have felt the necessity to smoke a cig, but you did/do?

 

You can smoke occational cigarrettes for enjoyment, that why at all. Why occational? so you don't become addicted. Why never in my life did i decide to have an owl as my TaoBums picture but you did/do

 

Reading a book about smoking addiction and thinking your an expert on the subject is silly. One persons opinion in 1 book is not a definative answer. I'm well aware how the brain works on addictions of all kinds from first hand experience.

 

Sometimes life can be too perfect that you sit still and don't want change. This in it's self for too long is not healthy.

Edited October 11, 2009 by z00se

[Owledge]

Yeah, your right, I'm a limited, incoherent ignoramus. Please talk to someone else. Your on ignore.

LOL!

 

Your right... I am as you see me, completely and totally. I'm that person you think I am... always have been.

 

Your perception is god. bye.

No, I won't. Because I don't have an addiction, you are projecting.

 

Have a great life!!

You seem to like this kind of escape that makes you feel superior to others who say some uncomfortable things.

 

I recommended the book because it is enlightening. And as Little1 said, you should do the research before judging yourself. Millions of people only hear what doctors say and never hear about people who don't just treat symptoms.

 

I pity you. First nicotine shot with 12 years age.

 

 

@TheSongsofDistantEarth

What you write about alcohol sounds exactly like the nicotine case.

 

 

The smoking / drinking combo can actually be great for your health. Smoking helps you lose weight, by slowly pulling the fat out of your belly etc and into your heart/veins. Then you drink alcohol which thins the blood so that it can still run freely through your veins. Thats why you NEED both =]

At this point I knew that you are a smoker. The little demon's voice is distinctive.

Smoking doesn't pull fat out of your belly. It more likely lowers the efficiency of your metabolism. And when people gain weight after quitting smoking, it's because of a replacement pleasure or the improved metabolism or improved taste.

 

I get all out trashed from time to time. It's great. It's the biggest adventure, i feel so happy, meet heaps of new people am super sociable and makes for a most memorable night (at least the first half .

When you notice that you become super-sociable and very happy when 'getting trashed', this creates an association. It also means that you perceive a difference. Wouldn't it be nicer if you were so sociable in sober condition that you wouldn't notice an improvement with alcohol?

Furthermore... maybe you feel more sociable because the others are, so you get along better with them when they're drunk, too. I'd like to see how sociable you are when 'trashed' and in company of sober friends.

You must be a sad bunch without ehanol.

 

Alot of people say it's ok if you have 1-2 beers with some friends but that just makes me feel crap. Then i DO have a desire for more. I'll save up all those 1-2 beers untill i got 15 then use em all at once and have a decent crack where i can enjoy myself. 1-2 beers isn't fun at all i'd rather none.

This is alarming. Usually it is the other way round. Your case sounds like you're far into the spiral of misery. You got used to ethanol so much.

I wish you the strength to overcome your sorrows instead of temporally forgetting them.

 

Smoking is not fun at the start? (someone said?) If it wasn't fun at the start why have so many people started smoking... it's not just because of the marketing material, it's because it's fun! If you've smoked a pack a day for 10 years then its hard to breath it's not fun any more, or when ur dying cos u don't have one it's not fun. But if you can smoke here and there i think it's great. Can sort out many problems in your life at some emotional time, give you a 'breath of fresh air' in a moody moment to say what is best to say and save yourself some future burden.

While this is typical 'nicotine-speak', too, you are asking questions, and that gives me the sense that you might actually do me the favor and read the book. You can't understand why I write what I write unless you read it.

I maybe have to say it clearer: The guy writing the book has studied thousands of cases over decaces, his own case included, and it is just the result from research that so much of what is written here is classical talk of smokers, so while it is not logically impossible that you can talk like that and not be addicted, it at least opens the chance that you are, and you should take the opportunity to understand yourself better.

There are many people who talk like Vajrahridaya and already have or sooner or later will have serious trouble.

Allen Carr realized how much he was bullshitting himself. He was upset about the stupidity of people who knew they'd have their legs amputated if they continue to smoke and they continued and had their legs removed, while he himself somehow didn't realize that he was nearing a stroke due to clotted arteries and suffered from smoker's legs for years. He also thought that if you stand up quickly, it is perfectly normal that you get dizzy and that everybody has that. This as examples how you can be totally ignorant about what's going on with you.

 

Also half the reason people think it's bad is because of all the marketing material telling you it was bad. I wonder if a higher percentage of smokers have died from cigarettes since all the advertising about how bad it is... all the extra guilt smokers face when they have a cig, and the mind over matter thing, them thinking it's really bad! It is bad, but not as bad as it's made out to be. Especially for low smokers 2-3 a day even i think is ok. I'd love that much but i only have 1-2 smoking nights a month due to my nagging wife

The 'counter-advertising' is foolish, out of not understanding the problem. And apparently this foolishness is supported by the tobacco companies because it helps them. They instill fear (of having to quit) in smokers, and that makes them tend to smoke even more determinedly, because it makes them anxious, and nicotine chases this anxiety away.

And doctors take part in the drug dealing with their nicotine patches and chewing-gums.

Not talking about single, personal cases: Smoking is the greatest killer drug due to its widespread use, and the tactics of tobacco marketing are known, so why do you feel OK giving money to them by buying their products?

As a personal example, I won't buy McD or Burger King any more after I did some research on their business tactics, which are somewhat similar to the tobacco industry's.

 

I think people on the spiritual path are quicker to realise it than anyone else.

Obviously not necessarily. I often experience cases of people who have certain areas where they totally deviate from their usual state of mind. Even the greatest enlightened teacher can fall victim to own follies.

I guess that's why a buddhist told me recently that his teacher said never to judge yourself. Probably because this opens a trap of self-deception that actually becomes more tricky the 'further' you are on the spiritual path.

 

Theres so many great things around i want to try them ALL if they are good or bad for me. As long as i dont' get stuck only on any single 1 then i think they're all great. Depriving yourself of pleasure i don't belive is the way of the TAO, it's embracing and bathing and tasting all life has to offer. To do so one can learn so much more.

Have you tried heroine yet? I guarantee you, you'll love it! You'll want it again and again! That stuff must be really good! Every time you put that needle in your arm, you will feel a great pleasure and relief (=relaxation). I think you can even almost taste it.

And ... well ... you can always just try, right? If you find out you don't like heroine, just forget about it.

 

Reading a book about smoking addiction and thinking your an expert on the subject is silly. One persons opinion in 1 book is not a definative answer. I'm well aware how the brain works on addictions of all kinds from first hand experience.

The most profound understanding is simple, but sometimes requires a lot of effort to achieve. As I said, it's not an opinion but research and a method with proven success, but you have already made an opinion about the book without even reading up on its contents.

 

I don't hear people coming up with good reasons for not reading a book that's cheap, easily-readable and highly recommended and million-times proven. Although I already knew a bit about the dopamine mechanism and addiction, I am very glad that I've eventually read it. You know... reading a thriller inspired by actual events is one thing, but reading a non-fictional report on the events is another thing.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Hardyg

[Marblehead]

May I join in this lovely discussion?

 

(Yes.)

 

Thank you.

 

I once believed that smoking, drinking, loud music, and wild women were the spices of life.

 

Actually, I still do; it's just that I don't partake of all the spices anymore.

 

Oh well. See what old age will do to you?

 

Peace & Love!

[z00se]

Buddy, you're talking about something i believe you have no clue about. From your posts it sounds like you've read 1 book, you've got some "insight" from the book that you thought was really clever and you learnt alot from it and now you think you know it all. Good for you i'm happy for you, but don't feel the need to pressure everyone to read a book that they're not even interested in reading. Maybe you should save some of your "kindness" energy of trying to stop people smoking (who it seems don't want your help) and deal with some of your own problems (i'm sure you have one or two ) Perhaps not forcing this book down every smokers throat and having some more tolerance for smoking -- we already don't smoke anywhere indoors for people like you

 

As a personal example, I won't buy McD or Burger King any more after I did some research on their business tactics, which are somewhat similar to the tobacco industry's.

That sounds like a typical personal example of someone who is paranoid about what the others of doing. You won't buy something because of some business tactics. Why not select something on your own thoughts or feelings rather than because of what the others are doing?

 

Have you tried heroine yet? I guarantee you, you'll love it! You'll want it again and again! That stuff must be really good! Every time you put that needle in your arm, you will feel a great pleasure and relief (=relaxation). I think you can even almost taste it.

I know my body, i'd trust myself with it. It's just not something that i want to try. It's not instantly addictive. You've been educated by the media. You have no real knowledge or understanding of things through personal experience. You'd do great living here in china. The perfect citizen.

 

I don't hear people coming up with good reasons for not reading a book that's cheap, easily-readable and highly recommended and million-times proven.

Because we've got better things to do with our time? I can see the gleam in your eye as you write your posts, thinking that you're so clever and we are so dumb. Maybe your right. We are ALL dumb and YOU are so clever.

 

 

 

 

I once believed that smoking, drinking, loud music, and wild women were the spices of life.

 

Actually, I still do; it's just that I don't partake of all the spices anymore.

 

very correct!

[Owledge]

Buddy, you're talking about something i believe you have no clue about. From your posts it sounds like you've read 1 book, you've got some "insight" from the book that you thought was really clever and you learnt alot from it and now you think you know it all. Good for you i'm happy for you, but don't feel the need to pressure everyone to read a book that they're not even interested in reading.

Please don't only pay attention to the sound (which is highly subjective) but also to the contents.

 

Maybe you should save some of your "kindness" energy of trying to stop people smoking (who it seems don't want your help) and deal with some of your own problems (i'm sure you have one or two )

I'm just trying to help you recognize potential problems that hide themselves. I'm dealing with my problems, too, but it is all interconnected, and sometimes I'd be glad to get some help with my problems, too, which I don't get often.

 

Perhaps not forcing this book down every smokers throat

Funny phrasing from a smoker.

By the way... you would like the book. It begins with explicitly telling you to smoke while reading it.

 

and having some more tolerance for smoking -- we already don't smoke anywhere indoors for people like you

That's a beaten argument - MORE tolerance towards smokers. I have compassion for smokers, that's why I'm trying to help. But smokers who ask for more tolerance are sometimes not very tolerant themselves. You say "we", but you can only speak for yourself. The tolerance argument is only to justify a drug addiction, not to give the best circumstances for quitting. It's like a heroine addict asking for more tolerance because he wants to continue taking it.

 

At the regulars' table of a local political party they always rent the smoker area and say that they rent the non-smoker-area when it is democratically decided and asked for more tolerance. That's just lame, that they can't last two or three hours without making the others inhale poisonous fumes. Before and after it they could smoke all they want.

 

Tolerance is for example watching your wife slowly kill herself with an addictive substance. Compassion/love is trying everything to help her overcome the addiction. You wouldn't stop trying because she asks you to, or would you? When she says you don't understand, it's healthy, and you see her dying a bit every day, would you say she is right? What would you do? Because every chain-smoker has once been a moderate smoker.

 

That sounds like a typical personal example of someone who is paranoid about what the others of doing. You won't buy something because of some business tactics. Why not select something on your own thoughts or feelings rather than because of what the others are doing?

I don't understand. What does paranoia have to do with it and why am I not acting on my own thought when eating no more junk food? I don't agree with what McD is doing, so I don't give them money. Simple. And it has the added benefit of helping others, too, by re-distributing the funds to healthier alternatives who don't have to rely on sleazy psycho-marketing tactics.

 

I know my body, i'd trust myself with it. It's just not something that i want to try. It's not instantly addictive.

You said: "Theres so many great things around i want to try them ALL if they are good or bad for me."

 

You've been educated by the media. You have no real knowledge or understanding of things through personal experience. You'd do great living here in china. The perfect citizen.

You are extremely preoccupied. I don't even have to comment on this further; your writing speaks for itself.

 

Because we've got better things to do with our time? I can see the gleam in your eye as you write your posts, thinking that you're so clever and we are so dumb. Maybe your right. We are ALL dumb and YOU are so clever.

very correct!

Now THIS is paranoia ... and the same escapist tactic that Vajrahridaya used.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Hardyg

[宁]

The smoking / drinking combo can actually be great for your health. Smoking helps you lose weight, by slowly pulling the fat out of your belly etc and into your heart/veins. Then you drink alcohol which thins the blood so that it can still run freely through your veins. Thats why you NEED both.

 

OMG

that's the most 'scientific' excuse i've ever heard

zoose, admit it, you 'hunt' for reasons to keep you habits and not change

this hasn't anything to do with cultivation, but with consumption

it's not philosophy, you can check it with your doctor

[Marblehead]

OMG

that's the most 'scientific' excuse i've ever heard

zoose, admit it, you 'hunt' for reasons to keep you habits and not change

this hasn't anything to do with cultivation, but with consumption

it's not philosophy, you can check it with your doctor

 

Am I allowed to laugh here?

 

Peace & Love!

[z00se]

The smoking / drinking combo can actually be great for your health. Smoking helps you lose weight, by slowly pulling the fat out of your belly etc and into your heart/veins. Then you drink alcohol which thins the blood so that it can still run freely through your veins. Thats why you NEED both.

 

OMG

that's the most 'scientific' excuse i've ever heard

zoose, admit it, you 'hunt' for reasons to keep you habits and not change

this hasn't anything to do with cultivation, but with consumption

it's not philosophy, you can check it with your doctor

 

Am I allowed to laugh here?

 

Peace & Love!

 

HAHAHAHAH I WILL LAUGH BECAUSE IT'S SOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!

 

This is the second person to take it so seriously. What i wrote is absolutely rediculous of course.... it was mean as a light hearted joke! (Do you really think i'm so stupid to think that putting fat in your heart and veins is good?!?!) 2 people have taken it seriously i can't believe it, especially in a forum designed for meditation discussion where we are not supposed to be serious and be as fun and playful as possible.

 

This is the exact reason why you need to take a day off meditation, booze up, have a big fat ciggarette, eat that juicy kabab and relax so you aren't so uptight and gain insight and the ability to see the funny side of things. But i know some people are far too 'clever' to need that and thats why my advise will fly straight over your head Maybe one day when you are old something stupid will really make you laugh, you'll feel great, then you'll think back to your younger days and realise how many good times and good laughs you missed out on. Then you'll think 'hmmm.... those guys on taobums had a point'. Hopefully you realisation becomes sooner rather than later so you can get the most out of your life

 

Meantime i'm sorry but i just have to laugh at those serious peoples expense

[Owledge]

z00se, you find it funny that people didn't get the 'joke' exactly because you don't seem to understand how smokers can come up with stuff like that and mean it serious.

[z00se]

z00se, you find it funny that people didn't get the 'joke' exactly because you don't seem to understand how smokers can come up with stuff like that and mean it serious.

 

No a smoker wouldn't understand. But you a non-smoker would

[Owledge]

Of course you're just silly now, but to answer anyway: It has nothing to do with smoker or non-smoker, but with understanding certain things by consulting the vast experience of the guy who wrote the book.

[z00se]

...

 

(i have to get the last word)

[宁]

 

This is the exact reason why you need to take a day off meditation, booze up, have a big fat ciggarette, eat that juicy kabab.............

 

if i do that i'll mess up my whole day i'll get headaches, hard breathing, nausea, i'll even throw up

 

i also take the discussions pretty serious...

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I pity you.

 

I'm sorry your so full of yourself.

 

Take care.

[Owledge]

You react pretty sour. Seems to strike a chord when someone pities you.

[Vajrahridaya]

You react pretty sour. Seems to strike a chord when someone pities you.

 

LOL! I'm just pointing out that your position is extreme and full of self projection.

 

You keep protecting yourself by projecting back onto me.

 

That's fine... play the pride game.

[Owledge]

Please explain what it is that I am projecting onto you and why my position is extreme.

[JustARandomPanda]

Buddy, you're talking about something i believe you have no clue about. From your posts it sounds like you've read 1 book, you've got some "insight" from the book that you thought was really clever and you learnt alot from it and now you think you know it all. Good for you i'm happy for you, but don't feel the need to pressure everyone to read a book that they're not even interested in reading. Maybe you should save some of your "kindness" energy of trying to stop people smoking (who it seems don't want your help) and deal with some of your own problems (i'm sure you have one or two tongue.gif) Perhaps not forcing this book down every smokers throat and having some more tolerance for smoking -- we already don't smoke anywhere indoors for people like you wink.gif

 

One finds that a lot about most subjects on message boards, not just smoking or drinking. Exceedingly few people really bother to learn or live Christ's point about removing the motes in their own eye before trying to dig them out in everyone else's.

 

 

OK, back to junk food...

 

Junk food and the spiritual life are basically okay, I believe abstaining is a better choice on the spiritual path.

 

If you

 

-can truly "take it or leave it", and leave it at least as much as you take it,

 

-can share convivially with friends, one or two junk foods,

 

-have gone and do go long periods of time (several months) or more without eating a single bite of junk food,

 

-never 'need' to have junk food

 

-really eat junk food pretty infrequently, no more than once or twice a month in the above manner,

 

You are probably well established on your spiritual path and eating junk food is not a problem...

 

 

 

However, if you ever

 

-"need" junk food because something happened or didn't happen,

 

-regularly eat junk food to relax or "unwind",

 

-eat junk food, and you're over 25,

 

-use junk food to do anything: get to sleep, relax around people, deal with stress or overwhelming emotion, make love,

 

-'self-medicate' with junk food to cover up an uncomfortable feeling, emotion or situation.

 

-eat junk food regularly more than once a week,

 

Then you are eating in a way that is detrimental to your life and spiritual path.

 

 

Here's the thing, worthy of being discussed at length in it's own topic:

 

Human beings have an incredible innate capacity for self-delusion.

 

 

This is especially true of those on the spiritual path, and of course, being deluded, don't realize it themselves.

 

Junk food can be tricky and seductive, often users in unhealthy patterns with it are in denial and unable to see how it is a detriment. In the above, I am not talking about true junky behavior, but it is a slippery slope from the above behavior to being dependent or 'abusing' junk food. And one usually lies to oneself the whole time it's happening.

 

Couldn't resist Songs. Your arguments work just as well for the modern American diet whether bought as fast food, snacks or from the grocery store. I think junk food is far more insidious and is having far greater damaging repercussions to society than either smoking or drinking combined. The high cost of health care is driven plenty by the medical industry having to 'manage' or correct problems people's poor food choices of many decades have brought upon themselves.

 

If we are going to point out the detriments of smokers and drinkers for spiritual attainment it would be wise to point out the elephant in the room too - the colossal numbers of Americans eating even moderate amounts of unhealthy food and its cumulative effect - including those who meditate regularly.

 

 

How many posters in this thread Eat Clean 365 days a year? Not me I confess...

 

 

Edit:

 

-eat junk food, and you're over 25,

 

Maybe there should be a Federal law that says it's only legal for 21 - 25 year olds to eat junk food or drink alcohol legally.

Edited October 12, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Owledge]

LOL! Looove your avatar!!

I guess that owl now has turned fowl ... I mean foul.