Signs and Sensations of progress

[Encephalon]

[VCraigP]

[Encephalon]

[doc benway]

I moved some text around...

 

It seems odd to me to even mention the last sign and sensation here. Most teachers are very careful not to set up expectations in the student. This paragraph seems to do just the opposite.

 

Oh well. good info from Mr Reid. His books do make for interesting reading.

 

Craig

The entire quotation seems to do just the opposite.

I always question for myself what level the author of such a work may have achieved.

Is he speaking from experience or research?

 

It's very easy to write about advanced levels of martial arts and meditation - it's another thing altogether to actually achieve those levels. As my teacher has said - anyone who has the time to research and write books of this nature can't have enough time to put in the hours necessary to really achieve what they're writing about.

 

I've been taught to avoid giving meditation students information about what type of experiences and benchmarks they can expect. This does not help the progress. To the contrary, it slows progress considerably by intellectualizing what should be an experiential process.

[Encephalon]

The entire quotation seems to do just the opposite.

I always question for myself what level the author of such a work may have achieved.

Is he speaking from experience or research?

 

It's very easy to write about advanced levels of martial arts and meditation - it's another thing altogether to actually achieve those levels. As my teacher has said -

 

I've been taught to avoid giving meditation students information about what type of experiences and benchmarks they can expect. This does not help the progress. To the contrary, it slows progress considerably by intellectualizing what should be an experiential process.

 

I don't hear much about Dan Reid in TTB. I think he's up there with a handful of western students who took Asian philosophy seriously enough to study it in college, learn the language and live in Asia. I can understand the argument about being careful who to listen to, but the westerners who've done their homework seem to be a valuable resource for other western students. Here's his website if anyone's interested.

 

http://www.danreid.org/default.asp

 

"anyone who has the time to research and write books of this nature can't have enough time to put in the hours necessary to really achieve what they're writing about." Does this include all the Chinese masters who also happen to be prolific authors, such as Deng Ming-Dao, Jwing-Ming, Waysun Liao, C.K. Chu?

 

What seems rather remarkable to me is the predictability, consistency and inevitability of results if due diligence is practiced as instructed. This is powerful and incontrovertible evidence of the efficacy of energy work.

 

I was attempting to introduce a fine and experienced writer to the forum. If this post receives invariably negative feedback, I'll be happy to eliminate it.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

[sheng zhen]

The entire quotation seems to do just the opposite.

I always question for myself what level the author of such a work may have achieved.

Is he speaking from experience or research?

 

It's very easy to write about advanced levels of martial arts and meditation - it's another thing altogether to actually achieve those levels. As my teacher has said - anyone who has the time to research and write books of this nature can't have enough time to put in the hours necessary to really achieve what they're writing about.

 

I've been taught to avoid giving meditation students information about what type of experiences and benchmarks they can expect. This does not help the progress. To the contrary, it slows progress considerably by intellectualizing what should be an experiential process.

All very important points!

 

If this post receives invariably negative feedback, I'll be happy to eliminate it.

Nooooo, dont become like Winpro, AugustLeo and the others who delete their posts... Negativity is not bad... its natural. Especially here on taobums, even though I think this is one of the most positive forums available

[sheng zhen]

[doc benway]

"anyone who has the time to research and write books of this nature can't have enough time to put in the hours necessary to really achieve what they're writing about." Does this include all the Chinese masters who also happen to be prolific authors, such as Deng Ming-Dao, Jwing-Ming, Waysun Liao, C.K. Chu?

Yes. They have impeccable literary credentials.

Meditative and martial arts credentials are of a very different sort and much more difficult to verify.

I maintain a healthy skepticism when it comes to 'masters' - I mean no disrespect.

I've met respected 'masters' and been sorely disappointed more than once...

 

What seems rather remarkable to me is the predictability, consistency and inevitability of results if due diligence is practiced as instructed. This is powerful and incontrovertible evidence of the efficacy of energy work.

Agreed! This is not limited to energy work. In fact, energy work, by virtue of it's empiric nature, is not a good example for speaking of evidence and proof. Nevertheless, I agree with you on this point based on my own empiric experience.

 

I was attempting to introduce a fine and experienced writer to the forum. If this post receives invariably negative feedback, I'll be happy to eliminate it.

I appreciate your intention and hope you will not delete anything on my account. I've introduced authors to the forum many times, some better received than others. I don't intend to flame or troll here. My post was not at all intended to be negative, only cautionary. I do not want to criticize you or the writer you quoted and I apologize if that was the tone of my post. I'm simply calling attention to what I feel to be an extremely important distinction.

 

A great writer is just that, a great writer. Many people read what they write and take it as truth and then base their own opinions and practice on that. Unfortunately, when it comes to fields like Daoist meditation and cultivation, and internal martial arts, most of what is written is theoretical and has very little to do with the experiential aspect of these disciplines. Putting these things into words does not equate or even correlate with direct personal experience and achievement. Anyone can read and write and interpret classic texts and sound as if they are masters. My concern here regards the intersection between theory and practice in meditation, cultivation, and internal arts.

 

Furthermore, even the valid work that is rooted in experience (The Secret of the Golden Flower, The Tai Chi Classics, and The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle come to mind) is not terribly helpful to the student. These are works that serve to validate something that has already been experienced in practice. They do not help achieve experience in general. In fact, as mentioned in my earlier post, I find these sorts of works to sometimes interfere with progress by 1. taking up the students time that would be better spent practicing and 2. putting expectations in the mind of the student which can distract from real experience - for example, I expect to see a warm golden light and ignore the subtle blossoming of awareness arising from my meditation.

 

If you (not you personally, anyone) want to be an expert in Daoism and Daoist methods from a theoretical and research perspective, I respect that but it doesn't interest me very much and does little or nothing to help my progress in my cultivation. If you want to practice Daoist methods, it is critical to do so under the (preferably) direct guidance of one who has gone before, not one who has researched, read, and written. Perhaps Reid has achieved a very high level of cultivation and I will someday eat my words. I have no problem with that. I know I'm an ass. It is my nature. I still stand by my caution - don't believe everything you read. And if you want to cultivate Qi, cultivate Qi - that cannot be done by reading and writing. I have several of Yang Jwing-Ming's books, not to mention Deng Ming Dao, and Waysun Liao. They are nicely researched theoretical works and, with due respect, have contributed nothing to my cultivation of Qi or development of meditative and martial skills. Let me take that back - Waysun Liao's book The Essence of Tai Chi describes a method of visualizing and imagining Qi when first beginning to practice. When I first started to practice Taiququan, the idea of imagining Qi flow gave me the freedom necessary to begin to experience it.

 

There are examples of this cautionary point throughout Eastern spiritual tradition:

Daoism reveres the simple fool, not the educated scholar

Buddha achieved enlightenment by sitting, not studying

Advaita Vedanta teaches nothing but one question - "Who Am I?"

Zen advocates sitting and the koan (among other, equally non-intellectual methods)

There is a beautiful tradition in Buddhism - I am ignorant of the details but in essence, there is an annual "reading of the sutras" in which the monks spin the scrolls which are mounted on vertical posts. They just twirl the scrolls round and round until every scroll has been spun a certain number of times or something like that. This process of spinning the sutras is felt to be equivalent and a satisfactory substitute for actually reading a single word!

Brilliant!

 

Blasto - please accept my apologies if I offended you and I also apologize to the group for my strongly biased and arrogant rant!

Once in a while I have to let it out or it builds up and gives me heartburn

 

_/\_

Edited October 11, 2009 by steve f

[Sloppy Zhang]

I must be in the minority here with this opinion, but I think psychic powers are awesome, and attaining psychic powers is one of the reasons why I got interested in meditation to begin with. *insert statement about not getting attached*

 

What kind of irks me is how people bring up the topic of psychic powers but in the same sentence tell you don't worry about it.

 

It's like when a friend comes up to you and says, "hey, you know.... uh, nevermind."

 

And you're like, "what is it? Tell me."

 

And they say, "oh no, never mind. It's nothing, don't worry about it."

 

And you're like, "well now I want to know."

 

And they respond, "it's not a big deal, just forget about it."

 

They SAY it's not a big deal, but they are really just drawing your attention to it.

 

It's even WORSE when you hear people say, "yeah, I have psychic powers, but I don't want to show you because you won't believe me/it'll freak you out/some other excuse."

 

Maybe I'm just not advanced enough to understand.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Capital]

An alternative option, and the option many seem to take, is being completely secret about everything that is fundamental, yet pulling fools in with 'detailed (usually wrong) directions' on how to do the powerful and obtuse.

 

I cannot say that I have never pondered on the depths of what a being can experience, but I'd much rather have abundant direction on the basics and the theory than a how-to-do on Telekinesis.

 

I must be in the minority here with this opinion, but I think psychic powers are awesome, and attaining psychic powers is one of the reasons why I got interested in meditation to begin with. *insert statement about not getting attached*

 

What kind of irks me is how people bring up the topic of psychic powers but in the same sentence tell you don't worry about it.

 

It's like when a friend comes up to you and says, "hey, you know.... uh, nevermind."

 

And you're like, "what is it? Tell me."

 

And they say, "oh no, never mind. It's nothing, don't worry about it."

 

And you're like, "well now I want to know."

 

And they respond, "it's not a big deal, just forget about it."

 

They SAY it's not a big deal, but they are really just drawing your attention to it.

 

It's even WORSE when you hear people say, "yeah, I have psychic powers, but I don't want to show you because you won't believe me/it'll freak you out/some other excuse."

 

Maybe I'm just not advanced enough to understand.

[Sloppy Zhang]

An alternative option, and the option many seem to take, is being completely secret about everything that is fundamental, yet pulling fools in with 'detailed (usually wrong) directions' on how to do the powerful and obtuse.

 

I cannot say that I have never pondered on the depths of what a being can experience, but I'd much rather have abundant direction on the basics and the theory than a how-to-do on Telekinesis.

 

I think that both are needed.

 

You can have all the instruction in the world, but if you don't have the juice to carry it out then it's pointless, so you need the foundational exercises.

 

But if you have all the juice in the world but no idea with what to do with it, then you're not going to get anything done, so there needs to be some instruction.

 

Plenty of people doing one or the other. Not a lot of people doing (or talking?) about doing both.

 

Franz Bardon, in his works, mentions it a bit. A lot of ceremonial magicians carry out all kinds of rituals, but they don't have the power built up from the exercises to know what the rituals are channeling. So it just becomes a routine with no real effect (or maybe an undesired effect or maybe a minimal effect).

[NeiChuan]

Perhaps rather giving students heads up on things they will experience and learn for themselves there should be heads up on the symptoms of improper practice, or what can be overlooked.

[Encephalon]

Okay. So, it's settled then. Psychic powers are "awesome."

 

In retropsect, the last paragraph about supernormal powers wasn't necessary for the task. In fact, it caused an unnecessary detour, but it only points out the lack of precision in my own writing, and there's a worthy learning curve there.

 

I appreciate the civility. Indeed, it surpasses my own. Thanks for setting excellent examples for the rest of us.

It sounds like we need to proceed with caution if we delve into energy arts unsupervised. The risk that these practices represent to those who would go it alone, without supervision, needs to be evaluated.

(Can somebody do that?)

 

But I am all for the 'maps.' It has taken me very little time to realize how much time and resources are being wasted by keeping chi kung so unaccessible to so many. They used to teach transcendental meditiation in the prisons for free. Chi kung can be taught anywhere. But there are reasons that it isn't, and I don't understand them all.

 

I'm grateful for the information I've acquired, even though I did have that notorious bout of excessive heat for a few months. But the information to treat it successfully I found in this forum and in an acupuncture/herb clinic less than two miles from my house.

 

I guess the Boy Scout motto still makes sense.

 

Perhaps rather giving students heads up on things they will experience and learn for themselves there should be heads up on the symptoms of improper practice, or what can be overlooked.

 

How could you possibly separate the two?

Edited October 12, 2009 by Blasto

[JustARandomPanda]

 

I'm grateful for the information I've acquired, even though I did have that notorious bout of excessive heat for a few months.

 

I hope I someday feel interior heat.

 

I constantly live with interior cold.

[Encephalon]

I hope I someday feel interior heat.

 

I constantly live with interior cold.

 

Do you know any brass or woodwind players? They are a great resource for learning how to breathe heat into your system. I tread carefully here, so as not to possibly give out info that could be used inappropriately, but Master Co of Pranic Healing has a few cool tips on how to get the heat flowing with breath, very similar to what we learned as kids in band and drum corps. You want to be able to breath in such a way that your body is like a giant spunge and vacuum, absorbing vast amounts of energy from the breath.

Actually, going into fall/winter might not be the worst time to try this.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Blasto

[King Kabalabhati]

I hope I someday feel interior heat.

 

I constantly live with interior cold.

 

You probably tried the breath of fire already? Where you push air out with your belly with some force and very quickly, then allow inhalation to happen just as quick, then push again, repeating about 30 times or more per round. It's a very basic pranayama breathing exercise. Could be something more you need to dispel that cold though, maybe a chi kung doctor.

[Sloppy Zhang]

But I am all for the 'maps.'

 

I like maps too, the only thing you have to be careful about is people tricking themselves into thinking they are doing something when they are not.

 

If people say, "do this and you will feel a tingle in your hand, that means you are gathering chi!"

 

Then people go and say, "well I kind of felt something.... yeah, he said I would feel a tingle..... and that kinda felt like a tingle..... okay, I have chi powers now!"

 

Or on the other hand, "I don't feel a tingle, I must be doing something wrong, this chi stuff is stupid."

 

But if you go and say every single thing that could possibly happen, well a skeptic would say, "wow, you just covered all the bases, now no matter WHAT happens you can claim chi is present. What baloney."

 

As much as you can encourage people to be honest with themselves, you can't make them be honest with themselves, and it's rare that someone is always honest with themselves and.... well, you have to be honest with yourself to get anywhere.

[gendao]

This is another section taken from The Complete Book of Chinese Health and Healing, by Daniel Reid. Most astute readers will no doubt notice that the author holds a specific notion about what constitutes enlightenment. I would be open to the idea that the term can characterize certain states that may not necessarily include supernormal capacities, but that's a different subject. I think it is another excellent roadmap for folks on the MCO trail. My own experience included Lightness and Abdominal heat. What are yours?

 

SIGNS AND SENSATIONS

 

As you enter into the regular practice of sitting meditation, you may begin to experience certain signs and sensations that indicate that you are making progress. These sensations occur only when the body is still, the mind is clear, the emotions are calm, the breath is tuned, and energy is flowing smoothly and strongly through your channels. You should not expect these signs to occur, nor try to force them to come or go; just be aware of them when they happen. Furthermore, not everyone will experience the same combination of sings and sensations. They vary according to each individual, your level of practice, the time of day, prevailing astral conditions, and the surrounding environment. Here are the most common sensations experienced by meditators at various stages of practice:

 

The Eight Sensations

These are physical feelings caused by the enhances flow of energy through parts of the body normally deprived of sufficient energy, including sensations of warmth, cold, itching, motion, lightness, heaviness, slipperiness, and coarseness. They may be felt in any part of the body, especially the extremities. Make mentally certain that they are not being caused by adverse environmental energies, such as a cold breeze or direct sunlight, or by incorrect posture, such as leaning too far in one direction, or by cramped legs. If this is the case, make the necessary adjustments in your posture and environment, and then continue meditating. If the sensations are caused by internal energy circulation, don’t worry about them; just let them run their course.

 

Rocking and trembling

Already mentioned above, this sensation can take several forms – head rocking forwards and back or side to side, torso trembling, limbs shaking, etc. Often it will be experienced as a trembling in the lower abdomen, an indication that the Lower Elixir Field is filling with energy and a sign that energy is ready to enter circulation in the Microcosmic Orbit.

 

Gurgling abdomen

As energy fills the Lower Elixir Field and circulates in the minor channels of the abdomen, it can cause gas and fluids in the intestines to move, resulting in gurgling sensations in the gut. Often this will e accompanied by sensations of heat in the stomach. As the abdominal channels open up with continued practice, digestion and bowel functions will improve and gurgling sensations will gradually disappear.

 

Lightness

This feeling usually occurs after you have activated the Microcosmic Orbit. Your entire body feels light and airy, almost as though it were nothing more substantial that a cloud. This is caused by the total elimination of all stress and tensions in the body, mental tranquility, energy flowing freely through the channels, and smooth, finely tuned breathing.

 

Clear light

If you manage to achieve a deep and stable meditative state of mind, you may suddenly feel as though your body has completely dissolved and your energy is merging with the surrounding environmental energy in a mist of clear light or white cloud. Everything solid dissolves into emptiness. This is a very pleasant state and a good sign of progress, but it you try to cling to it by focusing attention on it, it will promptly disappear and ordinary sensations of physical solidity will return. So if it happens, don’t get excited, just remain cool, calm, and clear, and let it be.

 

Abdominal and kidney heat

When your meditation progresses to a more advanced level, you may experience intense sensations of heat in your lower abdomen, as though it were filled with red-hot coals, and/or hot streaking sensations in your kidneys, as though boiling water were pouring through them. The lower abdomen and the kidneys are the primary seats of primordial energy, and extremely hot sensation here are signs of progress in internal alchemy.

 

Supernatural powers

These signs occur only at the most advanced stages of practice, when the primordial spirit’s innate powers are fully awakened and brought under conscious control by the mind. These powers include clairvoyance, whereby the adept can see the future unfold as a natural order of events proceeding from the past through the present into the future, grand visions of the universe, communication with incorporeal spirits, and the ability to ‘read’ other people’s thoughts by tuning into their brain waves (ESP). These signs are a clear indication that the adept is on the brink of enlightenment and is able to project conscious awareness beyond his or her physical body.

Awesome. Could you go more into your own personal sensations that you experienced when you finally opened your microcosmic orbit here? I think there's still a lot of people confusing some slight "false water wheel" sensations with a full-on MCO opening...which I believe is fairly powerful with numerous confirmatory signs & symptoms. Or maybe I'm overestimating it, so it would be great to hear more feedback from people who are really sure they have opened theirs.

 

Here's an interesting account of a symptom of opening the MCO:

In my situation, since I practiced with the one thought by focusing all my strength and maybe because I practiced inside the mountains, I began to feel the phenomenom of won-gi (vigor) accumulating halfway throught the won-gi danbup. The energy accumulated in the lower danjun. And then a lump of flaming red heat rushed up. This is called Do-tae (pregenancy of Dao). This phenomenom can be seen as the entry into Sundo practice.

If the practitioner cannot treat the accumulation of won-gi (vigor) correctly then he could face a troubled situation. Practitioners can be seriously damaged if they don't get instructions from their teacher about how to cope with it. One should practice the way of circulating this self accumulating, large amount of energy by first raising it through the control path on the back of the spine, spinning it around the head and back to the distance of the ears, and then down the front side of the chest's finction-control vessel, and finally back to the lower belly. This energy circulation is completely accomplished when you practice the Shin-bup of Gun-gon danbup.

Disciple: What happens when perfect circulation of the function and control vessel is acheived?

Master: Your strength triples, your skin changes, five times of your body weight can rest on any part of you, your eye light changes, your mind opens to a higher dimension so the brain can penetrate principles, and you can see energy.

And then describes the next step of opening the macrocosmic orbit:

Won-gi danbup is an important base. It is the practice of adapting your whole body, from tip to tip, to a heavenly quality by following heaven's way. This is accomplished by circulating energy accumulated by the Gun-gon danbup haeng-gong through the 14 meridian vessels. The 14 vessels are composed of the 12 vessels plus the function and control vessels. Malfunction of the body will naturally vanish when Won-gi (source energy) overflows and circulates the body. One's body becomes healthy and, little by little, superhuman strength soars up.

Edited March 25, 2010 by vortex