Franz Bardon

[JustARandomPanda]

I am interested in Franz Bardon's books. Can anyone tell me their experiences using his system? Especially to awaken Chi and/or Kundalini or any other positive (or negative) experiences? Can they help one overcome blockages whether physical or psychological? What about hang ups vis-a-vis sex and shame? Do they help one experience emotions? Do they work with KAP 1 exercises well?

[SimoninTaiwan]

I am interested in Franz Bardon's books. Can anyone tell me their experiences using his system? Especially to awaken Chi and/or Kundalini or any other positive (or negative) experiences? Can they help one overcome blockages whether physical or psychological? What about hang ups vis-a-vis sex and shame? Do they help one experience emotions? Do they work with KAP 1 exercises well?

 

Hi Serene, for me I started in March/April of this year and have found it to be the best approach for me. In the past i have gone down many paths but this seems to be the most thorough combine this with Yogic Pranyama its given me the most progress. As i have never really felt or experienced stuff in the past people say feel this i would be like, what? With this i feel i am on the path and just need to practice now and the skys the limit.

 

 

 

Simon

Edited October 16, 2009 by SimoninTaiwan

[bindo]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...hl=franz+bardon

[David Yeh]

Initiation Into Hermetics is an excellent foundation, and to my mind provides a very thorough and systematic foundation for mystical and magical development, but only if you approach it in a thorough and systematic way (i.e., you practice according to instructions).

 

Can anyone tell me their experiences using his system? Especially to awaken Chi and/or Kundalini or any other positive (or negative) experiences?

 

Qi "awakening" is fairly bare-bones and, though outlined, is left up to the experimentation of the practitioner. That's the downside; the upside is that it's placed in a broader context of spiritual development.

 

As far as kundalini goes, read what Hermetic adept Rawn Clark says about it here. Basically, "In Bardon's system, the kundalini is left in nature's hands and its rate of rising is left to nature's wisdom based upon the initiate's own rate of maturation."

 

For high quality information on a Bardon perspective, I generally trust Rawn Clark's works as displayed on his website, abardoncompanion.com.

 

Can they help one overcome blockages whether physical or psychological? What about hang ups vis-a-vis sex and shame? Do they help one experience emotions?

 

Yes. Working on transforming and purifying the character is made a central part of the work from the very beginning.

[jaloo]

IIH is a solid foundation for any path. One of the biggest mistakes folks make is not spending enough time on the B & W psychic mirrors exercise. Dig into in depth and do it more than once. I've found EFT & PEAT to work well with it once you've really built the mirrors.

 

There are a couple of guides floating around the help guide you through IIH. Once by Rawn Clark and the other by William Mistele.

[JustARandomPanda]

IIH is a solid foundation for any path. One of the biggest mistakes folks make is not spending enough time on the B & W psychic mirrors exercise. Dig into in depth and do it more than once. I've found EFT & PEAT to work well with it once you've really built the mirrors.

 

How big are these mirrors supposed to be? And where does one find a black mirror?

 

What is EFT and PEAT? Are these 2 Bardon exercises?

[Sloppy Zhang]

How big are these mirrors supposed to be? And where does one find a black mirror?

 

The "soul mirrors" are you reflecting on yourself. Basically you take account of all your actions through the day, and find where your weaknesses are.

 

So if you're at a check out line and it's taking forever and you start to get irritable and someone asks you a question and you snap at them, well write that down, categorize that into an element. You do that for a couple of weeks until you get all your negative traits down. That's your black mirror.

 

Then do that for a couple weeks for your good traits. That's your white mirror.

 

Now you know what elements are out of balance, and you can work to rectify them with subsequent steps

 

What is EFT and PEAT? Are these 2 Bardon exercises?

 

I dunno, probably one of the latter steps, I don't refer to the exercises by abbreviations, but by step numbers and it's too early to figure them out.....

 

ANYWAY, my thoughts: (disclaimer: all my opinions from experience)

 

I recently put my Bardon training on hold. I practice the meditating/dissolving methods of B.K. Frantzis (found in his book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body"). It started to feel to me that the stuff I was doing with Bardon was "muddying the waters" that I had begun to still with Frantzis' methods. On top of that, I've had much more success in a shorter amount of time than with Bardon's. I personally feel like the relaxing and dissolving is the more foundational techniques to what Bardon teaches, which is heavy on the visualization. Well not really "visualize" as in "pretend", he really wants you to cultivate all 5 senses, but as you will realize once you really start to learn to relax, that can create tension.

 

In general, the concept of Hermetics started to get to me. Everything was fit into a structure. When you encountered something, you are supposed to figure out what element it is, so you know how to deal with it. I really didn't like that. You are adding extra thought structures to stuff you already have and that you are trying to deal with.... it's like trying to put out a fire by dumping a bunch of wood on it, you can do it, but you might make the problem worse ESPECIALLY if your problem is too much mental clutter in the first place! You can also think of it as scaffolding in construction of a building: to make a good building, you have to build OTHER stuff, then when you have the building you take it down. So initially you establish certain patterns where later you can depart from them but........ I dunno, if I'm trying to get rid of stuff, adding more stuff to the mix didn't seem to be helping much.

 

Throughout Bardon's exercises I found that in concentrating I'd get pretty tense at spots, and that actually hinders your practice I think, because it starts limiting you in what you can do. Bardon (and other commentators), talk about building energy and stuff, and how once you feel "full" of energy you shouldn't accumulate anymore. Well, first of all, I haven't encountered too many moments of relaxing "too much", and when I did, it just involved me going to sleep, not hurting myself with too much energy. And second, once you learn to relax, you can accumulate MORE energy because you are being more efficient in terms of space. And if you do encounter problems, you'll know how to dissolve/release so you won't hurt yourself, no to mention you'll feel discomfort long before any actual harm. If I hadn't practiced recognizing tension in my body, I never would have realized it. So much is reliant upon you being able to really feel your body (and later on, your mind/thoughts), and being able to relax it at will. I'm actually kind of surprised such an important thing was NOT included in Bardon's IIH.

 

One example is the thought control in step 1, where Bardon says things like, if you have an unwanted thought, force it from the mind, don't think the thought, etc etc. Same with later on changing behavior, though he says it'd be easier to transmute the thought/behavior, there's a lot said about fighting it...... and I've found accepting it + dissolving to be much MUCH easier in getting rid of bad habits.

 

In terms of clearing blockages, I prefer Frantzis' system. I read ahead on some steps, and here's one example of Bardon's balancing methods:

 

The body is divided into elemental areas, so head is fire element, chest is wind element, abdomen is water element, and then genitals on down to feet is earth element. You accumulate the elements in each of those areas, and meditate there for a while, all balanced out. Any blockages, or any stray elements in your body (too much fire in the chest, for instance), get attracted to their own element, so after a while everything gets "sorted", and then you release the elements back to the universe, and you're more balanced to begin with.

 

Well...... that's accumulating a lot of energy to pretty forcibly "move" some blockages. It might work for some people. It might work for small stuff. But big blockages? Adding more energy to an unbalanced system? Safer to just focus on getting rid of the blockages BEFORE adding energy to the system.

 

Some say there's a safety measure in that if you really did well on the mirrors exercise, and started to balance, you won't do that to yourself. That is true..... IF you did it RIGHT. It is VERY easy to fool yourself into thinking you've accomplished, very, VERY easy. ESPECIALLY because you are doing it with your "head", thinking about it. With dissolving stuff, in my experience, it's hard to fool yourself that way, because it's all about FEELING. Did you feel a blockage get release? It's not "I think I did", it's "did you?" You'll know when it happens. No visualizing, KNOWING. In that sense, it's a little bit more reliable. And again, since pretty much all of what Frantzis teaches in the books for the beginning stages is relaxation and dissolving, you're really less likely to hurt yourself.

 

Also, the energy I felt when doing later steps of the IIH (step 2 and 3), felt very..... coarse? Not coarse, but it was definitely a big, sticky, (suffocating?) energy. Maybe with more practice I'd have gotten better at feeling it and discerning it from other stuff, but I've found simple breathing that Frantzis teaches (breathing with full belly and back, focus on the dan tien), to be much easier, and the qi sensations I started to feel to be of a much much cleaner, smoother variety than the energy I encountered with Bardon's system. Maybe the energy was the same, but I just wasn't used to feeling it two different ways, maybe it was different. But I won't know till I get better in one, so I'm going to focus on Frantzis' stuff for now.

 

So, before you start the IIH, really, get Frantzis' stuff. "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body", and then maybe get "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness". But energy gates should be first to get, and REALLY practice it. I cannot tell you how beneficial it is to really know your body, to know where there's tension in your body or your thoughts.... very helpful. It makes me wonder about people who strain through Bardon's system, wondering at how their astral body is so weak, when really they just don't know how tense they've gotten.... not that everyone is like that, but it's much easier to get that way in Bardon's than it is with other stuff, IMHO. When you get good at recognizing and getting rid of tension, then do other stuff.

[JustARandomPanda]

So, before you start the IIH, really, get Frantzis' stuff. "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body", and then maybe get "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness". But energy gates should be first to get, and REALLY practice it. I cannot tell you how beneficial it is to really know your body, to know where there's tension in your body or your thoughts.... very helpful. It makes me wonder about people who strain through Bardon's system, wondering at how their astral body is so weak, when really they just don't know how tense they've gotten.... not that everyone is like that, but it's much easier to get that way in Bardon's than it is with other stuff, IMHO. When you get good at recognizing and getting rid of tension, then do other stuff.

 

Thank you for the suggestion. I have all of those books. I also have his Energy Gates DVD. I tried Frantzis's method for a while but got no results from it. Frantzis's method is extremely heavy on the Yin. I already suffer from an excess of Yin. In fact...I remember reading a critique Michael Winn had of Frantzis's Water Method one time. I think someone posted Winn's critique here. I found it explained why my body in particular didn't have success with Frantzis's methods (i.e. some people need to focus on FIRE in addition to Water to dissolve blockages). I liked Winn's critique so much I copied it to my PC*.

 

Other people - such as you and Pietro - do have great success with Frantzis's methods. Most guys into Frantzis are Martial Artists - already a sign IMO they naturally possess a lot of Yang fire - perhaps even an excess. Hence they find balance with Frantzis's Water / Yin focus. I'm glad there are different methods and teachers out there so everyone eventually finds something that works for them. Hopefully TaoBum Lurkers will be inspired by your post to check out Frantzis's (and Bardon's) methods.

 

 

p.s. I still love KAP and will continue with it even if I do try Bardon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* If anyone would like a copy of Michael Winn's critique PM me.

[thelerner]

IMO Bardon's work is very solid, beginning w/ a long period of psychoanalytic analysis and self improvement and moving towards mental, physical and psychic improvements. Its a slow steady path that requires discipline. <More then I usually have>

 

I recommend downloading and printing out Rawn Clarks notes on IIH (Initiation Into Hermetics) and other Hermetic writings, have plenty of paper, I did it double sided. William Mistele also has extensive notes on IIH and fascinating articles on Hermetics that are well worth printing out.

 

If nothing else I recommend every one do the IIH Mirror practice. Knowing oneself is the first step toward grounding in reality.

 

On the lazier side of things, Rawn Clarks various guided meditation and chant systems are available on his site for free. I really enjoy the IHVH Chant series, the CSM meditation, and the Archaeous series <which I find good to do while standing>

 

Yours

 

Michael

 

 

P.S. Rumor has it you can find pdf's of IIH on the internet.

[tumoessence]

Serene Blue

 

I really like the Bardon approach. I think difficulties come up if someone does not take his advice to continue the emptiiness of mind meditation from step one into all of the other steps. This is the only practice that is done in every other step. That alone makes his path unique for western esotericism. I agree that Rawon Clark's works are essential and Mistele's are also good.

I would also recommend Emil Stejnar's interviews. He has practiced Bardon since the late fifties. They are at hermetic texts click on the Emil Stejnar page.

Edited October 16, 2009 by tumoessence

[Encephalon]

Thank you for the suggestion. I have all of those books. I also have his Energy Gates DVD. I tried Frantzis's method for a while but got no results from it. Frantzis's method is extremely heavy on the Yin. I already suffer from an excess of Yin. In fact...I remember reading a critique Michael Winn had of Frantzis's Water Method one time. I think someone posted Winn's critique here. I found it explained why my body in particular didn't have success with Frantzis's methods (i.e. some people need to focus on FIRE in addition to Water to dissolve blockages). I liked Winn's critique so much I copied it to my PC*.

 

Other people - such as you and Pietro - do have great success with Frantzis's methods. Most guys into Frantzis are Martial Artists - already a sign IMO they naturally possess a lot of Yang fire - perhaps even an excess. Hence they find balance with Frantzis's Water / Yin focus. I'm glad there are different methods and teachers out there so everyone eventually finds something that works for them. Hopefully TaoBum Lurkers will be inspired by your post to check out Frantzis's (and Bardon's) methods.

p.s. I still love KAP and will continue with it even if I do try Bardon.

* If anyone would like a copy of Michael Winn's critique PM me.

 

I certainly count myself as one who fell prey to the excesses of the Fire Method, the one that Frantzis warns about. I did not have much luck with Frantzis' Water Method, or the dissolving process, but I did not stick with it long enough, even though I was standing in Embrace Horse for 30-45 minutes. But having overheated with breath work and nei kung, I can now appreciate how important it is to have a cool yin current coming down from Heaven.

 

Serene, you definitely don't need to cool off, and with fall/winter on the way, a Fire Method may be a wise choice.

[jaloo]

How big are these mirrors supposed to be? And where does one find a black mirror?

 

What is EFT and PEAT? Are these 2 Bardon exercises?

 

The mirrors are part of step one. Basically you are examining yourself and breaking it down into positive and negative qualities in you journal (magickal diary). You then assign them to elements. You can use the other techniques in Step 1 to work your way through them.

 

EFT and PEAT are energy psychology techniques to work out issues. I've used them, along with the other Step 1 techniques, to work out a lot of black mirror stuff and install positive attributes.

 

The mirrors help keep ego inflation in check. Thats why, IMHO, it is one of the more important exercises to keep up with across ALL stages in IIH.

[Creation]

I would like to point out that the "Water method", as a complete system of Taoist practice, does not confine itself to practices that are yin or watery per say, but incorporates both yin and yang and all five elements. The point of the water method is to not strain your system at all. There are fire, yang, upward, expanding elements to it, but they are used only in a certain way and at a certain point (as are the yin practices, for that matter). I think this confusion is another manifestation of the confusion about wu-wei meaning not ever doing anything, or relaxation meaning being completely limp all the time. It doesn't, but it sure is a lot easier to be relaxed when you are lying down limp and not doing anything!

 

I think it is likely that Frantzis made up the term "water method" to describe the particular tradition that was passed on to him. It is not a terrible name, but is is a misnomer. But here I speculate, so if someone knows otherwise do correct me.

 

The "water method" emphasizes awareness, which fundamentally is not yin or yang.

 

Part of the confusion is that Frantzis does not publicly teach the fiery or yang aspects of the system, and his writing can come off as being anti-fire and anti-yang. I think the latter is what prompted Michael Winn's article, which when I read I thought, "well that sounds right" but then I realized that he (and I, up to that point) hadn't really understood the water method (and Frantzis' saying negative things about 'fire methods' may very well have played a part of that). For example, Winn talks about warm water dissolving things better than cold water, meaning you need to heat up the chi with fire to dissolve blockages more efficiently. But that shows a misunderstanding of what Frantzis means by dissolving, which is to use awareness to cause the blockage to spontaneously dissolve, not trying to use chi per say (although of course chi is intimately involved). And Winn calls his way the method of water and fire (kan and li) and says that is more balanced, but that confuses uses of the terms water and fire. Frantzis says in his book that both 'water' and 'fire' methods have kan and li practices, and there is a fire component in the nei gong Frantzis teaches (namely, Opening the Energy Gates level two, also called Spiraling Energy Body, whereas OtEG lv. 1 is the water component, and there are also wood, metal, and earth components). So it is plenty balanced.

 

Whether the "fire" or "water" method is for you is based on your personality. But I don't think it is as simple an assessment as "yin" people need "fire methods", "yang" people need "water methods". I think it would be a mistake to think "I am a yin person, so my practice should be yang and therefore I should not practice the 'Water Method'."

[JustARandomPanda]

Whether the "fire" or "water" method is for you is based on your personality. But I don't think it is as simple an assessment as "yin" people need "fire methods", "yang" people need "water methods". I think it would be a mistake to think "I am a yin person, so my practice should be yang and therefore I should not practice the 'Water Method'."

 

Perhaps, Creation. All I know is what I actually experienced - which wasn't much even after months of use. I got more results from KAP in one week (it seems more fire-oriented to me somehow) than I ever did with the Water Method. Perhaps I was doing Water Method wrong. That is a real possibility.

 

If I remember correctly, one of Winn's major criticisms was that Frantzis leaves the Fire element - at least in the early stages (that I know of) - at an unconscious level. He thinks it's more useful to bring all of the elements into full conscious awareness for Qi Gong practice - even from the start.

 

In any case this has gotten away from Bardon. I'd still like to hear other people's experiences about it. I confess Magick does have a certain appeal to me also.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Perhaps, Creation. All I know is what I actually experienced - which wasn't much even after months of use. I got more results from KAP in one week (it seems more fire-oriented to me somehow) than I ever did with the Water Method. Perhaps I was doing Water Method wrong. That is a real possibility.

 

No, the way that Frantzis organized his books is that the exercises presented were as low energy as possible. Pretty much, the energy you work with is very subtle. It's all about relaxing, cultivating a deep sense of feeling, and learning to work with a little tiny bit of energy without overloading the system. Plus he didn't want people screwing themselves up.

 

As creation has said, higher level energy practices are taught later. But once you have a good ability to relax and to feel, you can see problems happening much further down the road. If you start moving more energy around and you feel it stagnate a mile away, you're in much better shape than the person who doesn't feel it until its almost at their doorstep.

 

Which is why I still maintain that it's good to get a feel for the stuff Frantzis teaches, even if it's just out of the book. The stuff you'll feel will probably feel minimal compared to other systems. But its benefits aren't about accumulating energy, it's in feeling energy.

 

When you make the jump to either later qigong techniques, or to Bardon's system, which involves good amounts of accumulating and working with energy, you'll be able to feel them more easily. Bardon says not to accumulate too much energy at a time, for example, he suggests you start doing 7 breaths and then work your way up, one breath each day, until you get to 20 or so. That is to avoid putting too much pressure on the system. If you have a good feel for your own body, you'll know what's too much, and you'll know sooner.

 

If I remember correctly, one of Winn's major criticisms was that Frantzis leaves the Fire element - at least in the early stages (that I know of) - at an unconscious level. He thinks it's more useful to bring all of the elements into full conscious awareness for Qi Gong practice - even from the start.

 

Well I think even Frantzis in some of his books says things like, "using the light of your awareness to melt the ice" and things like that. Another analogy that I liked a little bit better was thinking of clenching your first as a metaphor for a blockage that you feel. "Ice to water" is like relaxing the fingers, you still have a fist, but it is loose and devoid of its tension, then "water to gas" is fully opening your hand. That gets rid of the whole "fire vs. water" analogy and gets right to the point: removing tension. It's also closer to stuff that people actually FEEL on a day to day basis, relaxing as opposed to.... melting ice. Not too many people take time out of their day to watch ice melt and try to make their body do the same thing

 

In any case this has gotten away from Bardon. I'd still like to hear other people's experiences about it. I confess Magick does have a certain appeal to me also.

 

Well for the purposes of not straying too far, I definitely suggest Bardon's system. There are a lot of people here: http://vsociety.net/ that practice Bardon's system, the user Prophecy is one who (so I hear) has made it up to the latter steps of Bardon's system, and he just got back from a little forum hiatus, so you might want to check out some of his old posts on the subject, and contact him if you have any questions.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Creation]

Perhaps, Creation. All I know is what I actually experienced - which wasn't much even after months of use. I got more results from KAP in one week (it seems more fire-oriented to me somehow) than I ever did with the Water Method.

Yes of course. We've discussed this before. It was your destiny to take KAP when you did, no doubt. Just don't discount the Water method for good. You already have top notch fire practices from KAP. I think the water method could help you, like I mentioned about breathing with your spine.

 

Oh and sorry for derailing the thread.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Creation

[JustARandomPanda]

Yes of course. We've discussed this before. It was your destiny to take KAP when you did, no doubt. Just don't discount the Water method for good. You already have top notch fire practices from KAP. I think the water method could help you, like I mentioned about breathing with your spine.

 

I won't dismiss it. Once I can actually feel anything I bet BFK could be a great system for me! Certainly there are tons of people who have found great success with his methods.

 

I confess I am more interested in Bardon at the moment. Not sure why, just know that I am. I've seen several TaoBummers praise his methods as well.

[Biff]

I think Poke Runyon took Bardon's work further. What system you use depends on your goal. It's all easy when you know how.. lol.

[David Yeh]

I confess I am more interested in Bardon at the moment. Not sure why, just know that I am. I've seen several TaoBummers praise his methods as well.

 

Might I ask what you're looking for, specifically?

[tumoessence]

something else for your reading pleasure

 

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FranzBardonM...nz%20Bardon.pdf

 

Dang it looks like you need to be a member to get to that one.!

Edited October 16, 2009 by tumoessence

[tumoessence]

I think Poke Runyon took Bardon's work further. What system you use depends on your goal. It's all easy when you know how.. lol.

 

Yes, it depends on what your goal is but I think ritual magic based systems and Bardon go mostly in different directions.

Bill

[jaloo]

Yes, it depends on what your goal is but I think ritual magic based systems and Bardon go mostly in different directions.

Bill

 

I would agree. Runyon's system is based in the goetia and the preparations to get there. Otherwise its very similar to Golden Dawn and its variants.

 

Bardon's system is grounded in the work done in IIH.

 

To quote from William Mistele's excellent series on Bardon basic training (ref. link):

I add here a few paragraphs from my essay on the four planes: My

kids sometimes ask about magick. I tell them that in regard to Bardon's

practices, the concept he has of basic mastery is a spiritual ideal in

itself: Bardon expects you to have 1. The mental clarity of an advanced

Zen master--that is, a mind empty like a mirror and sharp as a diamond.

When you concentrate on something you easily focus without any distraction

whatsoever so there is nothing else in your consciousness. 2. The

concentration and artistic imagination of Stephen Spielberg. Spielberg

can visualize each scene in a movie including camera angles. He can hear

the intonations in the voices of the characters and see the emotions they

portray. He can do all of this before he begins shooting.

3. The ability to understand personal problems from a universal

perspective as one or two Ph.D.s in transpersonal psychology might impart.

4. The level of vitality and chi possessed by a sixth don aikido sensei or

a fourth generation tai chi master. 5. The qualities of a successful

individual in any profession: His life must be organized. He must be

free of needless distractions. He must have rugged endurance, patience,

self- motivation, and determination. And, like those at the top of any

profession or career, he must love his work with all his mind, heart, and

soul. And these abilities and attitudes Bardon expects you to somehow

acquire before you move on to working with higher spirits.

 

This is very different from my experience with Golden Dawn variants and Goetic focussed work. Also, the spirits one encounters in Bardon's system of Evocation are different from those of the traditional Goetia.

 

Anyway, regardless of path and background, IIH is an excellent program for establishing a amazing foundation for work in any system.

[jaloo]

something else for your reading pleasure

 

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FranzBardonM...nz%20Bardon.pdf

 

Dang it looks like you need to be a member to get to that one.!

 

I'm a member of that group. The article is interesting if you're into the life of Bardon. If you are interested in Bardon I do recommend joining the group. The content is usually interesting and its the best place I've found to get a heads up on Rawn Clark's lectures done in Second Life.

[JustARandomPanda]

Might I ask what you're looking for, specifically?

 

Clarity

[goldisheavy]

Clarity

 

If I may interpret this to mean "wisdom", may I humbly suggest you look into Buddhism? I'm not saying you should become a Buddhist (I am not, for example), but just studying some of the more prominent doctrines/insights of Buddha can help you with wisdom, which is what I think you mean by "clarity".

Edited October 16, 2009 by goldisheavy