I Ching Digest

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

[Vajrahridaya]

[Apech]

Thanks Stig,

 

This is very interesting. Just one point - do I Ching masters regard life as 'random' or just very complex? Not quite the same thing if you see what I mean.

 

A.

[Stigweard]

Oh... that's beautiful!

 

Reminds me of "Little Buddha"... the movie.

 

Anyway... very nice.

Ahh one of my most favorite movies of all time

[Stigweard]

Thanks Stig,

 

This is very interesting. Just one point - do I Ching masters regard life as 'random' or just very complex? Not quite the same thing if you see what I mean.

 

A.

That's an excellent question apepch7. From my understanding, the ancient masters realized the ever changing nature of life and made a concerted study of the phenomena of change.

 

Through this research it was observed that universal manifestations, though superficially appearing random, seemed to have a pulse-like pattern (day/night, summer/winter, male/female etc). Through this observation the premise of Yin and Yang was formed.

 

However, pure Yin and pure Yang are too simplistic to denote the energy character of "the 10,000 things," and so the original Yin and Yang model evolved into the 64 hexagram model that we know today as the I Ching.

 

Example:

 

Yang = 1

Yin = 0

 

Originally we have the basic Yin and Yang or: 0 1

 

Then we can get the four phases of: 00 10 11 01

 

Then the eight phases of: 000 011 101 110 111 100 010 001

 

And when you combine each trigram with each other you get:

 

 

And when you take into account that each line of each hexagram represents an energetic expression then you have a system with 384 (64X6) possible permutations.

 

Here's a great representation:

 

 

So, in answer to your question apepch7, I would have to lean toward saying that the I Ching represents a relatively complex model founded on the simplistic premise of Yin and Yang. It is suggesting that, even though on the surface life may appear to be random cause and effect, underlying or interpenetrating life is a consistent cyclic pattern formed by the spectrum of intermingling Yin and Yang.

[Stigweard]

Here are two very early representations of Yin and Yang. I will return to them later.

 

Diagram of Hetu (left) and Luoshu (right)

[Apech]

Thanks Stig,

 

The yin/yang complexity is a bit like Chaos Theory where through small perturbations a relatively simple model can break out into a kind of randomness. Life as we experience it in nature is of course almost overwhelmingly complex that to count or categorize the multiplicity is impossible.

 

I love the I Ching and look forward to your next post.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

[Tao99]

bits and bytes, ones and zeros the universe blinks on ...

Edited October 21, 2009 by Tao99

[Vajrahridaya]

...the I Ching is sometimes regarded as a system of divination.

 

Though it has many capacities, in the above quoted capacity it is quite amazing... I have experienced it's scientific magic throughout my life under the guidance of my Mom.

[funkytortoise]

the i ching is some crazy shit. anyone who's obsessive should just stay away from it. it'll just leave you wondering and getting depressed when you should have been out living life. whether you try to predict the future with the i ching or anything else, or you actually go about creating reality: it's the same thing. just the second option makes you feel a lot better about yourself.

 

but then again, i don't think most people would have the same reaction to it that i do.

[Vajrahridaya]

the i ching is some crazy shit. anyone who's obsessive should just stay away from it. it'll just leave you wondering and getting depressed when you should have been out living life. whether you try to predict the future with the i ching or anything else, or you actually go about creating reality: it's the same thing. just the second option makes you feel a lot better about yourself.

 

but then again, i don't think most people would have the same reaction to it that i do.

 

Oh I see. We'll I do it but once to a few times a year. I do it and my Mom helps interpret it as she is quite the Master at I-Ching divination interpretation. Hehe.. I've got good Momma karma.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ahh one of my most favorite movies of all time

 

Sorry more off topic. Me too, for content and screen shots, but I think some of the acting was a little... eh... But yes. It's a movie I own and have seen many times.

[findley]

"And when you take into account that each line of each hexagram represents an energetic expression then you have a system with 384 (64X6) possible permutations."

 

huh? each hexagram line has an 'energetic expression'? I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate on this? On what grounds can such a claim be made?

[Apech]

"And when you take into account that each line of each hexagram represents an energetic expression then you have a system with 384 (64X6) possible permutations."

 

huh? each hexagram line has an 'energetic expression'? I've never heard of this. Can you elaborate on this? On what grounds can such a claim be made?

 

 

I think this is a reference to the moving lines (9's and 6's).

[findley]

 

more than one line is subject to change. The I ching only addresses 384 (or whatever #,) permutations. (a couple more for 1 and 2?)

[Apech]

 

more than one line is subject to change. The I ching only addresses 384 (or whatever #,) permutations. (a couple more for 1 and 2?)

 

 

Yes I think there must be a much greater number of permutations + combinations if you count every possible moving yin or moving yang in each hexagram. Though usually interpretations take only one moving line as dominant.

[Stigweard]

[Uncle Screwtape]

What a great thread!

 

I found with the I Ching that it was necessary for me to build a relationship with her (see how I call it a her). To me it is like forming a connection with a human teacher. I had to establish trust and respect. Only then did she reveal her secrets to me.

 

I think the coin method is fine; but when I use it, instead of the yarrow method, it is only because I am impatient (the coin method is quicker) and that is the wrong attitude to have. Imagine bursting into the room of a human teacher, bypassing all polite formalities and saying, 'Yeah, yeah, come on: answer my question.' (I am not saying the coin method is wrong; only that I use that method for the wrong reasons.)

 

It's personal between the I Ching and me. I am getting to know her personality. I can often tell which line I will divine next.

 

Richard

[Vajrahridaya]

What a great thread!

 

I found with the I Ching that it was necessary for me to build a relationship with her (see how I call it a her). To me it is like forming a connection with a human teacher. I had to establish trust and respect. Only then did she reveal her secrets to me.

 

I think the coin method is fine; but when I use it, instead of the yarrow method, it is only because I am impatient (the coin method is quicker) and that is the wrong attitude to have. Imagine bursting into the room of a human teacher, bypassing all polite formalities and saying, 'Yeah, yeah, come on: answer my question.' (I am not saying the coin method is wrong; only that I use that method for the wrong reasons.)

 

It's personal between the I Ching and me. I am getting to know her personality. I can often tell which line I will divine next.

 

Richard

I use the coin only because it's the easiest and the only one I know how to use. Actually I always do it with my mother and she reads the coins. So, I don't even really know how to do it myself. I just ask the question, shake the coins and throw the coins, momma does the rest. That's even more lazy!

[Bum Grasshopper]

I use the coin only because it's the easiest and the only one I know how to use. Actually I always do it with my mother and she reads the coins. So, I don't even really know how to do it myself. I just ask the question, shake the coins and throw the coins, momma does the rest. That's even more lazy!

 

Try the marble method. It is simple and direct as the coin method, but has the same mathematical odds as the yarrow stalk method.

 

You will need 16 marbles or some other token that can be divided up in 4 colors. One of 1 color, 3 of another, 5 of the third color and 7 of the last color. It matters not what colors you use.

 

The first marble (one color) represents a yin line changing into a yang line.

The second marble (3 colors)represents a yang line changing into a yin line.

The third marble (5 colors) represents stable yang lines.

the fourth marble (7 colors) represents stable yin lines.

 

Place all marbles in a bowl. Shake the bowl to mix well, and without looking, pick a marble. Make note of the color and record the resulting line. Return the marble to the bowl and repeat 5 more time to assemble your hexagram.

[Eric23]

I have Wu Wei's translation of the I Ching. He has a very nice introduction to the work and discusses methods. He is a strong advocate of yarrow sticks. His reasons are that they require an input from the seeker when the pile is first broken. Also yarrow sticks take more time so you have more time to meditate on your question. Being a traditionalist, he strongly advises against coins.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, I'd like to learn how to use Yarrow sticks. Also the marble method seems interesting. I'll bring that up with my Mom.

 

Thanks guys!!

[Taomeow]

Yes, I'd like to learn how to use Yarrow sticks. Also the marble method seems interesting. I'll bring that up with my Mom.

 

Thanks guys!!

The yarrow stalks method takes at least 30 minutes to get the hexagram with the fastest going, while with the coins you can be done in one tenth of the time. I do coins for less important questions and yarrow stalks for more important ones. The yarrow stalks I have, I made myself, having come across a flowering meadow just when I thought I should start using this method, and no sooner. (I tried buying them online a couple of years earlier and was appalled by the price or something, in any event I probably wasn't ready then, I had lots of questions I wanted answered fast at the time, and the I Ching and the yarrow both knew it. In the ancient tradition, by the way, it is the yarrow plant that is considered the oracle, the I Ching is more like an interpreter for its pronouncements. It's a diviner's plant, much like parsley is a midwife's plant and mandrake, a sorcerer's plant. Plants have relationships with people based on common interests.)

 

The funniest thing I ever did with the I Ching was when a door-to-door salesman came peddling an AT&T wireless package -- phone, internet, TV all on one plan -- and the deal was, you know those pushy high-pressure sales deals, you have to decide right now, right meow, or else you're not getting all those wonderful discounts and perks and shit. I never buy anything this way, but the guy was working so hard, putting his heart and soul into his sales pitch, and the economy sucks and I know he needs this lousy job and it's not his fault, so I told him, OK, I'll give you a chance. I'll ask the oracle if I should take this deal. If she approves, I'll take it.

 

I solemnly produced the I Ching which I keep wrapped in pink silk the way you're supposed to, unfolded it with much ceremony, took out funky-looking coins (Russian, incidentally), and did a spectacular performance of a reading in front of the salesman's goggled eyes. Then I read the changing line I got -- "drudgery, no harvesting" (I use the Eranos I Ching, discussed earlier in a thread started by Mal I think) -- and explained to the guy that the reading is against my getting the plan and so, sorry, no deal, the oracle spake. He was actually thrilled to have had this crazy diversion in his own "drudgery" and told me he won't forget this day for as long as he lives!

[Vajrahridaya]

That's amazing!! Wonderful story. Ah! He must have been totally blown away by such a candid display of something other worldly.

 

 

The yarrow stalks method takes at least 30 minutes to get the hexagram with the fastest going, while with the coins you can be done in one tenth of the time. I do coins for less important questions and yarrow stalks for more important ones. The yarrow stalks I have, I made myself, having come across a flowering meadow just when I thought I should start using this method, and no sooner. (I tried buying them online a couple of years earlier and was appalled by the price or something, in any event I probably wasn't ready then, I had lots of questions I wanted answered fast at the time, and the I Ching and the yarrow both knew it. In the ancient tradition, by the way, it is the yarrow plant that is considered the oracle, the I Ching is more like an interpreter for its pronouncements. It's a diviner's plant, much like parsley is a midwife's plant and mandrake, a sorcerer's plant. Plants have relationships with people based on common interests.)

 

The funniest thing I ever did with the I Ching was when a door-to-door salesman came peddling an AT&T wireless package -- phone, internet, TV all on one plan -- and the deal was, you know those pushy high-pressure sales deals, you have to decide right now, right meow, or else you're not getting all those wonderful discounts and perks and shit. I never buy anything this way, but the guy was working so hard, putting his heart and soul into his sales pitch, and the economy sucks and I know he needs this lousy job and it's not his fault, so I told him, OK, I'll give you a chance. I'll ask the oracle if I should take this deal. If she approves, I'll take it.

 

I solemnly produced the I Ching which I keep wrapped in pink silk the way you're supposed to, unfolded it with much ceremony, took out funky-looking coins (Russian, incidentally), and did a spectacular performance of a reading in front of the salesman's goggled eyes. Then I read the changing line I got -- "drudgery, no harvesting" (I use the Eranos I Ching, discussed earlier in a thread started by Mal I think) -- and explained to the guy that the reading is against my getting the plan and so, sorry, no deal, the oracle spake. He was actually thrilled to have had this crazy diversion in his own "drudgery" and told me he won't forget this day for as long as he lives!