I Ching Digest

[Stigweard]

My preferred method is using seeds:

 

 

Created 6 piles of seeds from bottom to top to form hexagram and then another larger pile to the side for the signified line. The lines are sorted to see whether odd (yang) or even (yin) and the large pile is divided by 6 with the remainder being the signified line (i.e. keep sorting out 6 seeds until a pile of 6 or less is left over).

[Uncle Screwtape]

If you believe that the I Ching works then the various odds involving a particular method are, I believe, irrelevant. The I Ching works on the principle that the falling of coins or the dividing of stalks, or anything else, represent the state of the inter-connected universe in that instant. Therefore, the coins or the stalks could not possibly have produced any other results, regardless of the odds, any more than a snowflake could have landed in a different place or the crumbs from a dropped cookie could have.

 

Richard

[findley]

[Guest BestowTao]

That's an excellent question apepch7. From my understanding, the ancient masters realized the ever changing nature of life and made a concerted study of the phenomena of change.

 

Through this research it was observed that universal manifestations, though superficially appearing random, seemed to have a pulse-like pattern (day/night, summer/winter, male/female etc). Through this observation the premise of Yin and Yang was formed.

 

So, in answer to your question apepch7, I would have to lean toward saying that the I Ching represents a relatively complex model founded on the simplistic premise of Yin and Yang. It is suggesting that, even though on the surface life may appear to be random cause and effect, underlying or interpenetrating life is a consistent cyclic pattern formed by the spectrum of intermingling Yin and Yang.

 

That is an excellent answer, Stigweard! While reading your response I was reminded of a fantastic movie I often watch : Pi, by Darren Aronofsky.

 

During a part of the movie, Max's mentor, Sol, tries to take on the position that the universe is completely random. Max, in a search to find the meaning of the universe, refuses to believe this:

 

SOL: The ancient Japanese considered the Go board to be a microcosm of the universe. Although, when it's empty, it appears simple and ordered, the possibilities of gameplay are endless. No two Go games are alike, just like snowflakes. So, the Go board actually represents an extremely complex and chaotic universe. And that's the truth of our world, Max. It can't be easily summed up with math. There is no simple pattern.

 

MAX: But as the game progresses, the possibilities become smaller. The board takes on order. Soon, every move's predictable.

 

SOL: So?

 

MAX: So maybe, even though we're not aware of it, there is a pattern, an order underlying every Go game.

 

SOL: It's insanity.

 

MAX: Maybe it's genius.

[Vajrahridaya]

If you believe that the I Ching works then the various odds involving a particular method are, I believe, irrelevant. The I Ching works on the principle that the falling of coins or the dividing of stalks, or anything else, represent the state of the inter-connected universe in that instant. Therefore, the coins or the stalks could not possibly have produced any other results, regardless of the odds, any more than a snowflake could have landed in a different place or the crumbs from a dropped cookie could have.

 

Richard

 

 

Yes, I think it more has to do with connecting and confidence.

[三江源]

.

Edited October 5, 2015 by 三江源

[rain]

Edited October 25, 2009 by rain

[~jK~]

[Stigweard]

[kangjep]

Can anyone recommend a method for reading/studying the Yi Jing, rather than using it for divination? I've tried to read it, as recommended by Cleary in the Liu I Ming book, taking one hexagram in the morning and one in the evening, but have not been able to keep up the practice. Why? Because I find the text (any translation I've tried) quite opaque and therefore boring. Now I am well aware of the current of thought that would say this boredom is my problem and I just have to deal with it, but if there were a less uncompromising approach then I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

Cheers

Jep

[Apech]

Can anyone recommend a method for reading/studying the Yi Jing, rather than using it for divination? I've tried to read it, as recommended by Cleary in the Liu I Ming book, taking one hexagram in the morning and one in the evening, but have not been able to keep up the practice. Why? Because I find the text (any translation I've tried) quite opaque and therefore boring. Now I am well aware of the current of thought that would say this boredom is my problem and I just have to deal with it, but if there were a less uncompromising approach then I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

Cheers

Jep

 

Jep,

 

I am no expert but I do use the I Ching. I understand your problem because just straight reading can become very abstract and opaque. I think two things are necessary, one is to read about the structure of the I Ching ... the lines, the trigrams and the hexagrams, the way in which each Hexagram can be understood and where its name and text come from (as in Stigs example above) - this is fascinating in itself without any 'divination' ; the other is to actually apply the wisdom of the text to real life situations - you don't have to see this as divination or superstition but more to do with uncovering the patterns which underlie the ebb and flow of existence if you like and then learning from this inherent wisdom. These patterns are always there and the I Ching is a bit like a lens or diagnostic tool which highlights them for us.

 

Cheers,

 

A.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

I can often tell which line I will divine next.

 

Richard

 

This is a real problem in my book.... maybe.... I have over the years noticed that my I Ching reading will, on many occasions reflect exactly what I am thinking.....to a ridiculous degree...then again it may just be reflecting the fact that I'm ridiculous, and I, for one, wouldn't blame it. It can also reflect my own personal expectations of the answer. Someone else mentioned this effect in another thread a while ago.

 

I'm not convinced doing your own reading for anything related to yourself is a productive thing, I'm not even convinced myself throwing the coins/yarrow sticks and someone else doing the reading is very useful either. But I still remain very 'I ching curious'.

 

So, I propose a little experiment for those who would be willing. I will partially post a question, I will not tell you the full question, in place of the rest of the question I will put some symbols, they in no way are related to the length or meaning of the words, but I will imbue them, somewhat, with the overall meaning of the question. I would be very interested to see what you come up with. I also think if one person gets one trigram and another person a different one it can possibly give me a much fuller answer. It is a real question by the way.

 

I should add that I'm not trying to prove or disprove the I Ching as a form of divination, I feel it is valid, but it just hasn't been very valid for me that's all. So here it is........:

 

"How can I (*&&%$#$&^(**)(*_)+_)((*&^&^%$#&^(*^()_* ?"

 

ps. I don't believe being present or touching the coins makes any difference at all.

[Eric23]

Can anyone recommend a method for reading/studying the Yi Jing, rather than using it for divination? I've tried to read it, as recommended by Cleary in the Liu I Ming book, taking one hexagram in the morning and one in the evening, but have not been able to keep up the practice. Why? Because I find the text (any translation I've tried) quite opaque and therefore boring. Now I am well aware of the current of thought that would say this boredom is my problem and I just have to deal with it, but if there were a less uncompromising approach then I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

Cheers

Jep

 

I would simply ask the I Ching "what do I need to learn today?" Throw the coins or cast the sticks and study the hexagram. Eventually you'll get to all of them

[Apech]

This is a real problem in my book.... maybe.... I have over the years noticed that my I Ching reading will, on many occasions reflect exactly what I am thinking.....to a ridiculous degree...then again it may just be reflecting the fact that I'm ridiculous, and I, for one, wouldn't blame it. It can also reflect my own personal expectations of the answer. Someone else mentioned this effect in another thread a while ago.

 

I'm not convinced doing your own reading for anything related to yourself is a productive thing, I'm not even convinced myself throwing the coins/yarrow sticks and someone else doing the reading is very useful either. But I still remain very 'I ching curious'.

 

So, I propose a little experiment for those who would be willing. I will partially post a question, I will not tell you the full question, in place of the rest of the question I will put some symbols, they in no way are related to the length or meaning of the words, but I will imbue them, somewhat, with the overall meaning of the question. I would be very interested to see what you come up with. I also think if one person gets one trigram and another person a different one it can possibly give me a much fuller answer. It is a real question by the way.

 

I should add that I'm not trying to prove or disprove the I Ching as a form of divination, I feel it is valid, but it just hasn't been very valid for me that's all. So here it is........:

 

"How can I (*&&%$#$&^(**)(*_)+_)((*&^&^%$#&^(*^()_* ?"

 

ps. I don't believe being present or touching the coins makes any difference at all.

 

In the spirit of cooperation and experiment I asked your question on I Ching Online and got:

 

Hex 12 - moving line 3rd changing to Hex 33

 

(I can supply full text if you wish).

 

The sense I got of what it was saying is:

 

"The situation surrounding your question is stagnant and this makes it attractive to do something that is really based on boredom or a vacuity of real creativity. If you did this then you could be dogged by a feeling of unease, shame or disquiet. Really what you should be doing is to withdraw from the whole situation to a place of balance."

 

PS. If this is bollocks then please don't draw any conclusions about the I Ching because I am not an expert.

 

PPS. Anyone who wants to (*&&%$#$&^(**)(*_)+_)((*&^&^%$#&^(*^()_* should of course be locked up for their own safety.

Edited November 18, 2009 by apepch7

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

In the spirit of cooperation and experiment I asked your question on I Ching Online and got:

 

Hex 12 - moving line 3rd changing to Hex 33

 

(I can supply full text if you wish).

 

The sense I got of what it was saying is:

 

"The situation surrounding your question is stagnant and this makes it attractive to do something that is really based on boredom or a vacuity of real creativity. If you did this then you could be dogged by a feeling of unease, shame or disquiet. Really what you should be doing is to withdraw from the whole situation to a place of balance."

 

PS. If this is bollocks then please don't draw any conclusions about the I Ching because I am not an expert.

 

PPS. Anyone who wants to (*&&%$#$&^(**)(*_)+_)((*&^&^%$#&^(*^()_* should of course be locked up for their own safety.

 

LOL... It's not bollocks, it's actually similar to what I have gotten with the same question in mind before. I was hoping you would do some actual coin throwing though apepch7 instead of going to ifate.com.... still, what with the financial crisis and all I guess coins are getting scarce up north, I suggest emigrating once they start paying you in turnips Thanks though, the answer is close to the mark.

 

Any more takers? I'm still 'I ching curious'.

[kangjep]

Eric23 and Apepch 7

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Jep

[Apech]

LOL... It's not bollocks, it's actually similar to what I have gotten with the same question in mind before. I was hoping you would do some actual coin throwing though apepch7 instead of going to ifate.com.... still, what with the financial crisis and all I guess coins are getting scarce up north, I suggest emigrating once they start paying you in turnips Thanks though, the answer is close to the mark.

 

Any more takers? I'm still 'I ching curious'.

 

 

I didn't go to ifate but to I Ching online which as you will see has tasteful bamboo artwork. I am descended on my mother's side from a line of Scottish Yorkshiremen so obviously coins are not things to be tossed around lightly but to be saved up and counted.

 

I await someone else doing a reading.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I didn't go to ifate but to I Ching online which as you will see has tasteful bamboo artwork. I am descended on my mother's side from a line of Scottish Yorkshiremen so obviously coins are not things to be tossed around lightly but to be saved up and counted.

 

I await someone else doing a reading.

 

Tasteful bamboo art.... I like it.... I should have known better! I don't suppose you often say 'it's a brorrr moon lit nit tonit!' do you? Don't answer that, responding to my idiocy is not a requirement.

 

However if there is anyone who can afford to perhaps lose one coin under the sofa in the quest for answers then please be my guest.

 

Edit: ps........ congratulations on ur centennial post(x10, I don't know the word)apepch7.... I had considered stalking ur ass to catch you when you when you reached it yesterday, but as it transpires the universe dragged you here. I like economy of motion. Most efficient.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Taomeow]

This is a real problem in my book.... maybe.... I have over the years noticed that my I Ching reading will, on many occasions reflect exactly what I am thinking.....to a ridiculous degree...then again it may just be reflecting the fact that I'm ridiculous, and I, for one, wouldn't blame it. It can also reflect my own personal expectations of the answer. Someone else mentioned this effect in another thread a while ago.

 

I'm not convinced doing your own reading for anything related to yourself is a productive thing, I'm not even convinced myself throwing the coins/yarrow sticks and someone else doing the reading is very useful either. But I still remain very 'I ching curious'.

 

So, I propose a little experiment for those who would be willing. I will partially post a question, I will not tell you the full question, in place of the rest of the question I will put some symbols, they in no way are related to the length or meaning of the words, but I will imbue them, somewhat, with the overall meaning of the question. I would be very interested to see what you come up with. I also think if one person gets one trigram and another person a different one it can possibly give me a much fuller answer. It is a real question by the way.

 

I should add that I'm not trying to prove or disprove the I Ching as a form of divination, I feel it is valid, but it just hasn't been very valid for me that's all. So here it is........:

 

"How can I (*&&%$#$&^(**)(*_)+_)((*&^&^%$#&^(*^()_* ?"

 

ps. I don't believe being present or touching the coins makes any difference at all.

Reminds me of a task routinely given to protagonists of Russian folk tales: "pojdi tuda, ne znaju kuda, prinesi to, ne zhaju chto" ("go there, I don't know where, bring me that, I don't know what.")

 

The I Ching, when consistently used for divination, tells you the tale of your own life, with all its twists and turns, ups and down, tasks and challenges, possibilities and improbabilities. If you ask a "how can I go there I don't know where" question, in all likelihood you'll get a "get lost" answer. I simply can't interest her enough in the plot of my life's story if I ask her a question that doesn't interest me enough, much less if I don't actually know it!

 

So what might be a more useful strategy for approaching her fruitfully than "testing" her is testing yourself first. Try to find out with more focused precision what it is you're actually doing when divining -- asking because you really need to know, or asking because you're bored, or want to prove or disprove something about the method itself, or asking with interest but with no trust in your heart, and so on?..

 

In my experience, the more you are into your own life, the more she is, and the more she is interested, the more precise she will be. To the point that some of the answers I get are not to the questions I ask but to the questions I failed to ask that are on her mind, not mine (e.g. about situations she is aware of and I'm not that are to unfold in my life.) Those will invariably later show themselves as THE questions I should have asked to begin with, because the answers will become clear as her creative/artistic moves aimed at guiding the plot away from some unworkable pitfalls (which bore her -- she likes action and meaning in a story, just like everybody else), and toward some useful developments (of the plot, the character, or both.)

Edited November 18, 2009 by Taomeow

[Apech]

 

Edit: ps........ congratulations on ur centennial post(x10, I don't know the word)apepch7.... I had considered stalking ur ass to catch you when you when you reached it yesterday, but as it transpires the universe dragged you here. I like economy of motion. Most efficient.

 

 

Thnx - didn't realize till you pointed out.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Reminds me of a task routinely given to protagonists of Russian folk tales: "pojdi tuda, ne znaju kuda, prinesi to, ne zhaju chto" ("go there, I don't know where, bring me that, I don't know what.")

 

The I Ching, when consistently used for divination, tells you the tale of your own life, with all its twists and turns, ups and down, tasks and challenges, possibilities and improbabilities. If you ask a "how can I go there I don't know where" question, in all likelihood you'll get a "get lost" answer. I simply can't interest her enough in the plot of my life's story if I ask her a question that doesn't interest me enough, much less if I don't actually know it!

 

So what might be a more useful strategy for approaching her fruitfully than "testing" her is testing yourself first. Try to find out with more focused precision what it is you're actually doing when divining -- asking because you really need to know, or asking because you're bored, or want to prove or disprove something about the method itself, or asking with interest but with no trust in your heart, and so on?..

 

In my experience, the more you are into your own life, the more she is, and the more she is interested, the more precise she will be. To the point that some of the answers I get are not to the questions I ask but to the questions I failed to ask that are on her mind, not mine (e.g. about situations she is aware of and I'm not that are to unfold in my life.) Those will invariably later show themselves as THE questions I should have asked to begin with, because the answers will become clear as her creative/artistic moves aimed at guiding the plot away from some unworkable pitfalls (which bore her -- she likes action and meaning in a story, just like everybody else), and toward some useful developments (of the plot, the character, or both.)

 

I wasn't testing 'her'. Just look for an answer that isn't affected by me.... although, obviously it would be to some degree bearing in mind I'm the one asking the question. As I did say, the question is a real one, one that is not born of 'boredom' as you say.

 

As for the Russian question, I quite like that I must admit. But my question is not the same. Imbue, imbue, imbue. Go ask a cat, they know what it is to imbue......and so should you.

 

Edit: A man who definitely likes Russian questions

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20091118/tod-l...re-37b0eca.html

Edited November 19, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Bum Grasshopper]

Can anyone recommend a method for reading/studying the Yi Jing, rather than using it for divination? I've tried to read it, as recommended by Cleary in the Liu I Ming book, taking one hexagram in the morning and one in the evening, but have not been able to keep up the practice. Why? Because I find the text (any translation I've tried) quite opaque and therefore boring. Now I am well aware of the current of thought that would say this boredom is my problem and I just have to deal with it, but if there were a less uncompromising approach then I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

Cheers

Jep

 

Get a copy of Ta Chuan

[Taomeow]

I wasn't testing 'her'. Just look for an answer that isn't affected by me.... although, obviously it would be to some degree bearing in mind I'm the one asking the question. As I did say, the question is a real one, one that is not born of 'boredom' as you say.

 

As for the Russian question, I quite like that I must admit. But my question is not the same. Imbue, imbue, imbue. Go ask a cat, they know what it is to imbue......and so should you.

 

Edit: A man who definitely likes Russian questions

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20091118/tod-l...re-37b0eca.html

 

A question you ask that "isn't affected by you" is impossible to ask.

 

Get a copy of Ta Chuan

I second that.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Taomeow

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

A question you ask that "isn't affected by you" is impossible to ask.

 

Ya. That's what I said. Thanks for repeating.

[Taomeow]

Ya. That's what I said. Thanks for repeating.

I believe what you meant was the opposite of what I mean. You are trying to get an "objective" something or other by partially removing yourself from the inquiry. I assert this is not doable. I also assert it's not doable not as a result of something missing from the I Ching's validity but as a result of something missing from the minds of "objective scientists" conditioned to pretend they aren't there when they question reality: to wit, obligatory subjectivity. It is obligatory because reality is based on relationships. Once you exist, you affect whatever you interact with. The I Ching is affected by you not because she "can't be objective" but because she isn't interested in being dishonest.

 

Since we're exchanging stories, here's one of my favorite Simpsons exchanges (quoting from memory):

 

Bart: Mom, I just saw Sideshow Bob!

Marge: Yes, dear, you saw him in your mind...

Bart: No! I really saw him on the street!

Marge: Of course. You really saw him. On the street in your mind...

 

I believe any and all "objective studies" are the ones conducted on the street in someone's mind...