Taoist Internal Alchemy and the book 'Taoist Yoga'

[YMWong]

yeah that makes sense -- and if you get to do "private practice" you'd have to know Mandarin I think or the local dialect.

 

To learn and practice daoism one does not necessarily have to know chinese, especially to start, as what one needs to be taught can and must be shown and copied only.

Imagine learning how to paint or play an instrument, you start very much like that

 

As one evolves in his practice some degree of verbal interaction is necessary so by the time one gets there - yes - a certain degree of chinese knowledge is mandatory

 

However most people, even those who believes to be already high level, are often just scratching the surface so actually - considering the average time spent on practice - talking is really just a disturbance

 

YM

[Iskote]

Hello Iskote,

it seems you have found below that many info can be gathered from the web already.

In any case, apart from having read tons of books and met various poeple, I know the nephew of Zhao (Chao) Bichen who lives in Beijing and strives to follow up in his grand-father footsteps

YM

 

Ok, i was just wondering if you had come across any good sources that outline

all the various Taoist sects and bracnhes, and their origins and what ever else.

Yes, one can find information in books and on the web, but it would be nice to

find a single reference that is fairly comprehensive.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Iskote

[voidisyinyang]

Edited October 26, 2009 by drewhempel

[YMWong]

Ok, i was just wondering if you had come across any good sources that outline

all the various Taoist sects and bracnhes, and their origins and what ever else.

Yes, one can find information in books and on the web, but it would be nice to

find a single reference that is fairly comprehensive.

 

No single source is comprehensive so one needs to find and read as many as possible to get a better picture, no ?

 

YM

[Iskote]

...

However most people, even those who believes to be already high level, are often just scratching the surface so actually - considering the average time spent on practice - talking is really just a disturbance

YM

 

Well, yes, one does need to practice to gain true experience and understanding, but discussing

the theory and background also helps to put things into perspective as well. I believe there

is a lot of misunderstanding of what Taoism really is by many in the West, so it doesn't hurt

to try to put things in perspective. Most teachers teach both theory and practice to help the

student to at least get some degree of undesrtanding of what they are learning, and to help

them understand their practices more and where it is leading, but I thnk we've discussed this

somewhat before. Frankly a lot of what is referred to as Taoism in both the East and the West

often does not relate a lot to what was actually practiced by Taoists in China, or is only a small part

of the whole picture. Anyway, I put my main emphasis on practice and just read or discuss when I

have time. I would agree that it all doesn't amount to much without regular effort and practice.

It is only from direct experience that we really have a chance at really learning and understanding.

 

May all your experiences be good.

Best wishes from Iskote...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Iskote

[YMWong]

Well, yes, one does need to practice to gain true experience and understanding, but discussing

the theory and background also helps to put things into perspective as well. I believe there

is a lot of misunderstanding of what Taoism really is by many in the West, so it doesn't hurt

to try to put things in perspective. Most teachers teach both theory and practice to help the

student to at least get some degree of undesrtanding of what they are learning, and to help

them understand their practices more and where it is leading, but I thnk we've discussed this

somewhat before. Frankly a lot of what is referred to as Taoism in both the East and the West

often does not relate a lot to what was actually practiced by Taoists in China, or is only a small part

of the whole picture. Anyway, I put my main emphasis on practice and just read or discuss when I

have time. I would agree that it all doesn't amount to much without regular effort and practice.

It is only from direct experience that we really have a chance at really learning and understanding.

 

One do not need to 'put things in perspective' as well as 'understanding what daoism is' - "who cares" ... IMHO - but simply practice what he is been taught and do what he is told to do

 

Also, one does not need to be told "where it is leading" since he is walking the path by himself

 

But I understand others might see things differently ...

 

YM

 

EDIT: btw, theory comes from practice and not the other way round

Traditionally a teacher would 'explain' theory only when the student shows signs of having embodied it already.

To teach theory before that only leads to 'dreaming' and it is a disturbance to practice

Edited October 26, 2009 by YMWong

[Iskote]

No single source is comprehensive so one needs to find and read as many as possible to get a better picture, no ?

YM

 

Some things are better than other things, from a certain perspective anyway. We also have

limited time in this existence. Yes, I agree it is good to read and learn from many different sources

if opportunity and time allows. However, one has to draw the line somewhere and try

to be more efficient or expedient where possible.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback from a fellow wanderer within and without of space and time.

 

Best wishes...

[lino]

As this progresses you need to cut down on food -- so the 250 year old Chinese master whose obituary was reprinted in the NY Times -- name anyone?

Anyway he lived in the mountains gathering herbs for his job -- and occasionally went down to sell herbs -- but he also had some 15 wives, thereby sucking in their female electrochemical jing energy. Apparently he was able to store that energy after transducing it into male electromagnetic chi

The book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" trans by Charles Luk gives the details on how to do this.

 

I wish he would get off of the parasite bullshit, all he is doing is robbing others and himself.

 

He already had some concept of "emptiness" when he said something about a "quiet heart".

He had knowledge of herbs and medicine.

[voidisyinyang]

Well 8 Brocades is connected to Taoist Yoga somehow I'm sure! haha.

 

Says when he was 250 years old he would eat 3 or more bowls of rice at one meal plus meat! haha

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=G96F_Jxnf...;q=&f=false

 

So he was making sure to restore his jing through food for sure....

 

As this progresses you need to cut down on food -- so the 250 year old Chinese master whose obituary was reprinted in the NY Times -- name anyone?

Anyway he lived in the mountains gathering herbs for his job -- and occasionally went down to sell herbs -- but he also had some 15 wives, thereby sucking in their female electrochemical jing energy. Apparently he was able to store that energy after transducing it into male electromagnetic chi

The book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" trans by Charles Luk gives the details on how to do this.

 

I wish he would get off of the parasite bullshit, all he is doing is robbing others and himself.

 

He already had some concept of "emptiness" when he said something about a "quiet heart".

He had knowledge of herbs and medicine.

Edited October 26, 2009 by drewhempel

[Iskote]

One do not need to 'put things in perspective' as well as 'understanding what daoism is' - "who cares" ... IMHO - but simply practice what he is been taught and do what he is told to do

 

Also, one does not need to be told "where it is leading" since he is walking the path by himself

 

But I understand others might see things differently ...

 

YM

 

EDIT: btw, theory comes from practice and not the other way round

Traditionally a teacher would 'explain' theory only when the student shows signs of having embodied it already.

To teach theory before that only leads to 'dreaming' and it is a disturbance to practice

 

In a perfect world there would be no need for talking at all and one would would just

intuitively know who is teaching a true practice as opposed to those who are

teaching false practices, and what one needs to do to progress. However, in the real world, such

is not normally the case. I have no doubt that your teacher taught theory and background to you,

and his/her teacher before him, and so on. I also have no doubt that you teach and 'explain' things

when you are teaching, or even when you are discussing things here. You express your opinions and

views as we all do. It is the main way that people communicate in this world and gain a better perspective

on things. Yes, there are other forms of communication, and we have all likely experienced this. I do not question that. Anyway, sometimes what we say or what we think we do does not actually reflect what we

actually do in reality. Try communicating with people without any talking and without trying to relate things

you are trying to teach them to what they are already familiar with, and see how far you get. 'Reality' is often

quite different from what we would like to think it is or should be, it seems to me. The ego is always

ready and willing to lead us astray, no? This all does not really relate to this thread however, which was more of a discussion about the practices and traditions in Taoist internal alchemy.

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

[YMWong]

I have no doubt that your teacher taught theory and background to you,

and his/her teacher before him, and so on. I also have no doubt that you teach and 'explain' things

when you are teaching, or even when you are discussing things here. You express your opinions and

views as we all do.

 

Iskote,

 

chatting on a web forum is not teaching daoism.

 

I was taught since the age of 14 and did not hear the word 'daoism' until I was maybe 17 or 18.

So I did not know the name of what I was taught and neither I did care, and was explained things along the way only as I started to show signs of having embodied a certain 'theory'

 

It is actually by all this much 'talking' about 'moving qi' etc. that modern day 'masters' trick so many gullibles ...

 

YM

[Iskote]

Iskote,

chatting on a web forum is not teaching daoism.

I was taught since the age of 14 and did not hear the word 'daoism' until I was maybe 17 or 18.

So I did not know the name of what I was taught and neither I did care, and was explained things along the way only as I started to show signs of having embodied a certain 'theory'

It is actually by all this much 'talking' about 'moving qi' etc. that modern day 'masters' trick so many gullibles ...

YM

 

YM, with all due respect, I have seen you try to 'correct' people about things here in discussions

(i.e. teach) and I have seen you add your views and opinions about Taoism and qigong as well;

as you are doing here. You have your views and experience and you express them, as do others.

It is called discussion. I do believe people do sometimes learn something from such discussions, even if

it is only at a more superficial level. Nevertheless it may still help to guide someone and possibly help

them from making mistakes further down the road. So it can serve a useful purpose at least sometimes,

in my view. If people didn't ever learn anything valuable from discussing things, it is doubtful that languages

would have evolved to the level that they have, IMO. For example, if one knows what to watch out for

and what to avoid in certain practices ahead of time, they may be able to avoid problems/mistakes when

they run into such things in their actual practice. I have no doubt that accomplished masters would not waste

their time giving lectures to students and writing books and guidelines, etc. if they didn't beleve it

couldn't accomplish anything of value. That just would not make any sense.

 

Regarding your other comment, it is not uncommon in Taoist teachings/literature to come across the

concept of moving qi, whether through intention or just through its natural function. Your comment that

"It is actually by all this much 'talking' about 'moving qi' etc. that modern day 'masters' trick so many gullibles ..." seems a somewhat one sided view. I understand from other things you have posted that you may not ascribe to such concepts, and it may not be a part of your tradition/experience, and that is perfectly fine,

but it does reflect my own personal experience. When one experiences the flow of energy from one hand to another or to another part of the body, then it is reasonable to describe such experiences in the way that they were felt/experienced. It is however just an experience or feeling and may not reflect ultimate reality,

and that goes for all things we experience/feel really.

 

Ultimately, according to the teachings of various widely respected masters, what we think of and experience

as reality is not reality at all, but we only have to work with what we have learned, felt, and experienced,

at any given moment in time. That's my view anyway. To denigrate others experience if it differs from one's own experience is perhaps a little short sighted. To loosely quote a famous fellow, the outer can take unlimited forms but it all derives from the same original source. Well, something like that anyway.

Nice chatting with you YM. I'm off for my evening practice now.

 

[A thought added later:] If we ever get so caught up with ourselves that we actually think we know something,

i.e., if we forget that we are really just a rank beginner in the overall scheme of things, we have perhaps

already lost our way.

 

 

Best wishes...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Iskote

[Iskote]

Yeah -- thanks for typing that out. I had read Eva Wong's little concise book and it has the same diagrams as the BOOK Taoist Yoga -- so....

 

Don't ask me. I just posted some info on it because I think it provides some

further context on where the internal alchemy described in the book 'Taoist Yoga,

Alchemy and Immortality' was coming from. Really the more one delves into Taoism

the more one realizes how it was constantly evolving and changing form. The outward

form anyway. The inner experiences gleaned may all head in the same general direction though,

I really wouldn't know.

 

Regarding the Taoist concept of cultivating both the mind and body, it makes me wonder where

the mind ends and the body begins. The more I ponder, the more I just want to cultivate stillness.

 

Have a good week everyone, and best wishes...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Iskote

[YMWong]

YM, with all due respect, I have seen you try to 'correct' people about things here in discussions

(i.e. teach) and I have seen you add your views and opinions about Taoism and qigong as well;

as you are doing here. You have your views and experience and you express them, as do others.

It is called discussion.

 

Of course but, as I just said, discussing among 'peers' on the web and learning from a teacher is a totally different thing.

Learning daoism in a master/disciple relationship in a traditional way is done as I just explained.

And by the way that is the only way to learn daoism as opposed to learn ABOUT daoism, which can of course be achieved in many ways including talking over the web

 

Regarding your other comment, it is not uncommon in Taoist teachings/literature to come across the

concept of moving qi, whether through intention or just through its natural function. Your comment that

"It is actually by all this much 'talking' about 'moving qi' etc. that modern day 'masters' trick so many gullibles ..." seems a somewhat one sided view. I understand from other things you have posted that you may not ascribe to such concepts, and it may not be a part of your tradition/experience, and that is perfectly fine,

but it does reflect my own personal experience.

 

You misunderstand me or maybe I was not clear enough

 

I said TALKING about those things lead people astray and very often these days it is the TALKING and the packing that attract people to the various "masters".

Doing is "real" and it may, often, involve 'moving qi' and various other things but it is not spoken, explained or told UNTIL a student - only by copying his master - has achieved the little necessary to UNDERSTAND any eventual explanation

 

Don't worry thou, we can always remain of our own opinions.

What I am describing IS - however - how daoism is taught in a traditional setting and what you describe - IMHO - is what western daoism (and too often modern day chinese "daoism") is taught today

 

YM

Edited October 26, 2009 by YMWong

[Iskote]

...

Don't worry thou, we can always remain of our own opinions.

What I am describing IS - however - how daoism is taught in a traditional setting and what you describe - IMHO - is what western daoism (and too often modern day chinese "daoism") is taught today

YM

 

Ha ha. I am guessing you have had a very bad day.

Your view seems more than a liitle rigid and somewhat unrealistic to me.

You should try relaxing more. I have yet to run across one teacher who

taught in exactly the same way as any other teacher. If the Tao is anything,

it is fluid. If everythng is of Tao, then everything we do, feel and experience is

of Tao. Taking a rigid view that only what one has experienced in their own limited view

is Tao, and everything else is not is, well, just plain limiting. I don't claim to know

in any way what Tao is, but from what I see it has been expressed in many different ways

by many.

 

Have a good evening mi amigo and best wishes...

Edited October 26, 2009 by Iskote

[YMWong]

Ha ha. I am guessing you have had a very bad day.

Your view seems more than a liitle rigid and somewhat unrealistic to me.

You should try relaxing more. I have yet to run across one teacher who

taught in exactly the same way as any other teacher. If the Tao is anything,

it is fluid. If everythng is of Tao, then everything we do, feel and experience is

of Tao. Taking a rigid view that only what one has experienced in their own limited view

is Tao, and everything else is not is, well, just plain limiting. I don't claim to know

in any way what Tao is, but from what I see it has been expressed in many different ways

by many.

 

Like many in the west you mistake "dao" for "daoism"

 

The first is a universal principle that in China belongs to Daoists, Buddhists and Confucianists alike

The second is a specific set of practices with their rigid rules and limited systems

 

Take care

 

YM

[宁]

Heya Iskote,

 

i enjoy reading you posts.

Regarding YM's comments, i was upset on them too some time ago.

Now i realize that he's just exposing the way things are there, in China.

We, in the west, have been exposed to a different view on Dao and Daoism...

 

I think maybe there is no absolute truth... maybe Daoism had to change in order to become accepted in the west. Maybe the western-type daoism works better for us as westerners

So, maybe we shouldn't be that grumpy about it...

I admit thou, that eastern Daoism seems to be at least more powerfull and complex than the western 'Daoism'...

We're talking apples and oranges here, may each of us grab the fruit that is in his/her nearest reach eheh

[lino]

Well 8 Brocades is connected to Taoist Yoga somehow I'm sure! haha.

 

Says when he was 250 years old he would eat 3 or more bowls of rice at one meal plus meat! haha

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=G96F_Jxnf...;q=&f=false

 

So he was making sure to restore his jing through food for sure....

 

And conserving it through emptiness and mindfulness, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

 

Rather than use his brain expenditures for stupid shit, his brain was able to utilize more resources

for repair. After a while, the brain has less and less to repair.

 

That 20% of calorie expenditures will go very far if the brain is allowed to utilize it more wisely.

 

http://www.powershow.com/view.php?id=P1246072935ThjzU

[AugustLeo]

.

[gendao]

I think maybe there is no absolute truth... maybe Daoism had to change in order to become accepted in the west. Maybe the western-type daoism works better for us as westerners

So, maybe we shouldn't be that grumpy about it...

I admit thou, that eastern Daoism seems to be at least more powerfull and complex than the western 'Daoism'...

We're talking apples and oranges here, may each of us grab the fruit that is in his/her nearest reach eheh

While still open to that possibility, I've grown more skeptical of that New Age "shortcuts" mentality now...

 

Mainly, from observing actual results... Where, it does seem like they are proportional to time & effort expended in practice. For example, most of the guys here who have opened their MCO or kundalini went through intense "bootcamps" of lengthy meditation daily for months on end, racking up hundreds of hours before their breakthrough.

 

Accomplished masters like Wang Liping (or John Chang, if you believe he's legit) have spent even far more time cultivating. Same with Chunyi Lin.

 

Now, have any of these New Agey Western "masters" actually been able to achieve similar levels of results with far less time & effort? If so - who are they and what are their methods?

 

With the possible exception of some naturally-gifted prodigies, I don't think there's a proven "shortcut" method here (or in China) for attaining Wang Liping-like results. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong?

YM,

 

I generally find your point of view both direct and useful.

 

You've recommended The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters by Stephen Eskildsen. Good book!

You also posted this article Early Quanzhen Daoist Views on the Causes of Disease and Death by Stephen Eskildsen.

 

In the topic The Book That Changed Your Life you mentioned Teachings of Taoist Master Chuang by Michael Saso.

 

In the topic Good Daoist Meditation Books you recommended The Gold Pavilion: Taoist Ways to Peace, Healing, and Long Life by Michael R. Saso

 

You also posted this article Daoism: The Oral Tradition, by Dr. Michael Saso

 

I've probably missed some of your recommendations, but are there any other books or articles on this topic that you would recommend?

Great summary - thanks, AugustLeo! Edited October 26, 2009 by vortex

[Zhenlung]

[Originally posted in the other thread: "Quan Zhen & Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality"http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry149833]

Yes, there is apparently some confusion around the term 'Taoist Yoga'. Some people have apparently

used the term to describe practices that include sexual practices of one form or another. This has

nothing to do with the content of the book which Lu Kuan Yu translated By Zhao Bi Chen, and which

he titled 'Taoist Yoga - Alchemy and Immortality'. The book that Lu Kuan Yu translated was about

internal alchemy meditation, and the practices described in the book derive, at least in part if not entirely,

from the Quan Zhen tradition. It is perhaps unfortunate that Lu Kuan Yu (or the publishers) chose to

include the term 'Taoist Yoga' in the title, which some might assume relates to the other practices

that have been referred to as 'Taoist Yoga' by others, and which practices have been criticized by

some such as Liu I Ming, as mentioned by Allen. Again, the book translated by Lu Kuan Yu does

not refer to any of the practices that were also referred to as 'Taoist Yoga' by others and which

Liu I Ming wrote of.

 

Best wishes...

 

 

Check out www.taoiststudy.com - it looks to have quite good information though I only just start to check it out. Cheers All

[Creation]

Check out www.taoiststudy.com - it looks to have quite good information though I only just start to check it out. Cheers All

Hi Zhenlung.

 

Good to see you around again. Thanks for the link. It looks to have great information that damo-qigong didn't have. They even have a fourm now!

 

Since you popped in, I would like to pick your brain a bit. The "Practical Process of Taoist Internal Alchemy Practice" described on damo-qigong.net seem to me to be more similar to what is outlined in Taoist Yoga than to what is outlined in, say, the Lingbao Bifa or the Teachings of Zhong and Lu. But I am no expert. Could you comment on this? If so, that seems to indicate that what Teacher Hu teaches is from the Wu Liu offshoot of Longmen (mentioned in above posts) rather than the pure Longmen per say. Did Teacher Hu mention this, or was he not to concerned with such details, as Dao Zhen describes in the Introduction of their book?

 

YMWong, I would love to hear anything you have to say on this topic as well.

 

Thanks,

Tyler

Edited October 26, 2009 by Creation

[Tao99]

[Iskote]

Like many in the west you mistake "dao" for "daoism"

The first is a universal principle that in China belongs to Daoists, Buddhists and Confucianists alike

The second is a specific set of practices with their rigid rules and limited systems

Take care

YM

 

In my view, Taoism is not so much about the outward form, but the inner experience.

I believe this is where much of the confusion lies. Taoism is about spiritual cultivation.

Those who truly embrace such practices reflect this in their very being. It can't be put on.

Our actions and attitudes define who we really are.

 

Best wishes...

Edited October 27, 2009 by Iskote

[Iskote]