Liberation?

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi V! Thanks for the input. FH's feelings are totally reasonable within her own experiences - there are just too many out there who fits in with her description, unfortunately.

 

I do agree.

 

However, i do question her view that meditation leads to higher morals. What do you think?

 

Only if accompanied with right view, or right intention.

 

@FH - You said that in your opinion all the striving leads to nothing. Within the limit of my own interpretation of this statement, i would say that to cultivate a good heart and to train the mind are necessarily fundamental to the serious Buddhist practitioner, which are very noble aspirations indeed, and definitely cannot be termed as *nothing*. It is very easy to see that such qualities would lead to much happiness and harmony, which i am sure you would agree we cannot have enough of. Unless we can tame this monkey mind of ours, the aim of *just being* can be quite a struggle, not impossible of course, but a challenge nonetheless.

 

Scientists did a study on the brain waves of Buddhist mediators and they found that, they had higher capacity for focus, compassion, and happiness and are in fact the happiest people detected under the conditions of this study of brain waves.

 

So, science say's that these cultivation practices are indeed not leading to nothing, but quite the opposite, very positive somethings.

 

BTW, liberation (a more appropriate term for me as compared to enlightenment) is anything but boring, because the very word itself says it all, dont you agree? And it definitely does not mean non-existence (god forbid lol). It simply means to kick-ass all our notions, ignorance, fears, and wrong views out the back door and mindfully keep them at bay until a new set of virtuous habits permeate our daily life. This, i assure you, is a real adventure, and one that can fulfill all our basic longing for freedom and emancipation.

 

Wonderful!

 

Hope you find this helpful. I am sure there are many here who knows much more about the nitty-gritty stuff and who can go into all the specifics with you if you are so inclined to learn more of the authentic teachings.

 

Have a good weekend!

 

Yes, I wouldn't mind!

 

Be fabulous!

[Marblehead]

Well, it's wrong,

 

OMG!! God has spoken and defined a Truth!

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

... ever again!

 

And they lived happily ever after.

 

(I didn't mean to imply that I understood any Buddhist teaching. I was only making a gereralized statement.)

 

 

Peace & Love!

[fragrant herbs]

Vaj said:

 

@FH - You said that in your opinion all the striving leads to nothing. Within the limit of my own interpretation of this statement, i would say that to cultivate a good heart and to train the mind are necessarily fundamental to the serious Buddhist practitioner, which are very noble aspirations indeed, and definitely cannot be termed as *nothing*. It is very easy to see that such qualities would lead to much happiness and harmony, which i am sure you would agree we cannot have enough of. Unless we can tame this monkey mind of ours, the aim of *just being* can be quite a struggle, not impossible of course, but a challenge nonetheless.

 

 

Striving for enlightenment is what I was talking about. Cultivating a good heart is well worth while. Feeding the poor, helping people or animals in any way is also well worth doing, more so than meditation. Meditation has harmed many people who have practiced it, but in Buddhism and Hinduism and other groups, people tend to think that it is a cure all, a peaceful method to enlightenment, when in fact people can become depressed, anxious, psychotic, etc. I suppose you can tame your monkey mind without meditation to a great degree, but that depends upon what you mean by monkey mind. I would say that positive thinking goes a long way to taming the mind, causing it to suffer less or even cure some forms of depression. So meditation, no matter what style it is, doesn't always lead to happiness. I know of Dr. Andrew Newberg's work on brain scan and have all of his books and highly recommend them, but not all that practice meditation have the same results as what he finds. One man's heaven can be another's hell. More work on that by Dr. Newberg would be interesting. He did study the affect of negative thinking, listening to negative news and people had a very negative affect on brain waves.

 

Every teaching seems to have a different view on what enlightenment is. When I listened to the Buddhist explanation it didn't seem so great, neither was the Hindu. Even when you google, "what is enlightenment?" you get many different views. No one really knows. Some say it is the end of suffering, but I have never met anyone on earth that has not suffered and doesn't continue to do so. I have met some monks that seemed rather detached, and due to this they didn't seem to experience the same emotions as the laymembers and didn't react much to the suffering of others. I have had people write me and say that they now have "depersonalization" as a result of meditation and have no idea how to cure it. Neither do I. One said that she talked with a Buddhist monk, and he told her that he had depersonalization too but felt quite comfortable with it. Is this what they mean by enlightenment? Here is a website talking about meditation and depersonalization: http://minet.org/Documents/research.1990.castillo

 

As for me I don't wish to meditate anymore because I don't wish to chance having problems. I think a simple path of cultivating a good heart and learning to have compassion for all and helping others is a better way for me. As well as positive thinking. But I believe that some Buddhist teachings are good when it comes to teaching "loving kindness" and the precepts. Other than that it is very hard to convince me that certain other teachings are the truth or that certain practices are wonderful when it comes to any religious teaching. Every religion has something good to offer though.

[fragrant herbs]

[Vajrahridaya]

Yet, I remember Dr. Margaret Singher, Ph.D. who studied meditators for 50 years, saying that the longer one meditates the more dishonest they were.

 

I wonder what her criteria was? Maybe she just didn't believe them as their experiences got deeper and deeper and they shared these experiences? She thought they were lying? I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there.

 

But again, this is my own experience.

 

It's good that you are objective about your subjectivity, that shows room for growth.

 

I have met beings who suffer very little psychologically, to none at all through the practice of meditation. That's my experience. My Mom is one of them.

 

 

Here are some interesting stages of meditation in Buddhism that go all the way to describing nirvana, Some of these stages sound hellish to me:

 

 

Yes, you have to face all your BS, which can be quite aggravating rather than just letting your BS control you and remaining ignorant of it's far reaching effects.

 

If one is being guided by a lineage, as is my own experience, you should be protected by an energy, and even when you are suffering these upheavals, you feel this depth of peace amidst it all.

 

I've definitely not experienced an increase in depersonalization as well. I feel more entwined with the people around me, but also more centered within and less effected by what I am more sensitive to in reference to my senses and psychic awareness. I see and feel, but I'm also more internally sensitive to a space within that is free no matter what, even if I seem to be angry, it feels like that's merely a display more and more and doesn't really have so much power over me on a deeper level.

 

Anyway... I've been up way too long again figuring out more business tactics. So, to sleep I go!

 

Ciao.

 

P.s. Thanks for the convo!

[atena]

"What does profound, unobstructed liberation mean?" - Living more fully!

[fragrant herbs]

Dr. Margaret Singer was a therapist that lived in Berkeley and many of her cases were people that had devefloped emotional problems due to meditation. She dealt with these types of cases for 50 years and wrote a book on cults, and then some chapters on meditation. It was her belief that meditating was beneficial and not harmful unless you had joined a cult. But I have listened to people who were not in cults and had problems, but then you have to define what a cult is. Also, many that develop problems have also been on long retreats.

 

As far as her finding that meditation causes people to be untruthful, I could not find that in her book just now, but I may have read it elsewhere. Still I don't believe that meditation would cause people to be dishonest, that seems like a farce when I think about it.

[33865_1494798762]

"What does profound, unobstructed liberation mean?"

Being free also means that you can not be stimulated - what so ever.

[C T]

[Vajrahridaya]

[33865_1494798762]

Quite a forceful statement, no?

 

I would love to hear more about this Tragardh, when you have the time. Sounds pretty extreme, but i am sure you have an angle on it, so cant wait to hear it buddy!

In short: with no responce there is no stimuly. They go together.

 

Get it?

[C T]

[33865_1494798762]

Edited October 26, 2009 by Guest

[C T]

[Marblehead]

The Buddhist sense of freedom is just intuiting emptiness during every sensation and stimulation.

 

That's an interesting statement because a Taoists sense of freedon is just intuiting fullness during every sensation and stimulation. ( At least that's the way I understand it.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Yes, not responding sometimes is in itself, a response.

 

Actually, that is 'wu wei'. I don't think I would call it a response though. I say this because 'wu wei' is intuitive - that is mindlessness (without conscious thought). 'Wei wu wei' is mindfullness (with conscious thought) once intuition inspires a response (action/reaction).

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

That's an interesting statement because a Taoists sense of freedon is just intuiting fullness during every sensation and stimulation. ( At least that's the way I understand it.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

The experience of emptiness is fullness without grasping, or without delusion.

[Marblehead]

The experience of emptiness is fullness without grasping, or without delusion.

 

Hehehe.

 

Okay. I'll let you slide on that one.

 

I still like to become aware of each experience, embrace its fullness, then let it go. Yes. all without illusion or delusion; without expectations, prejudices or preconceptions.

 

Have I mentioned I love being liberated from all dogma?

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I am curious, when the reference is 'meditation', what is the meaning?

 

It is my understanding that meditation is the art of 'stilling the mind'.. by-passing the mental filters that shape our understandings of our experiences according to preference and desirability.. in this state of 'mindfull mindlesness', we can see what 'is', as opposed to what we 'think' is is..

 

Be well..

[C T]

That's an interesting statement because a Taoists sense of freedon is just intuiting fullness during every sensation and stimulation. ( At least that's the way I understand it.)

 

Peace & Love!

Actually, that is 'wu wei'. I don't think I would call it a response though. I say this because 'wu wei' is intuitive - that is mindlessness (without conscious thought). 'Wei wu wei' is mindfullness (with conscious thought) once intuition inspires a response (action/reaction).

 

Peace & Love!

Hey M how did your weekend go? Did you manage to sort out the planned housework?

 

Yes the word response does sound a bit contrived does it not? Actually it was used in context of Tragardh's comment.

 

The word *mindlessness* here - is it something like what a highly-trained martial artist would have habituated? To move, defend and attack intuitively? Correct me please if i'm off the mark.

 

Alan Watt's interpretation (as well as a few other philosophers i think) of WWW is *doing without doing* which, to my limited understanding, seem a fraction contradictory to what you mentioned here regarding intuition inspiring a response, as in action/reaction, or mindfulness as you understand it.

 

Please help me to understand this further? Thanks!

 

(I do like a particular understanding regarding mindfulness within the buddhist thought, the one which reminds us that when a person whose mindfulness is complete, subject/object is transcended, where doer and doing becomes one, merged, fused, hence lessening the potential for gross karmic imprints in the mindstream). Just wanted to share this with you as an afterthought!

 

Cheers M! Be well.

[Marblehead]

Hey M how did your weekend go? Did you manage to sort out the planned housework?

 

My weekend was great! I hope yours was the same. Ha! The housework is still here waiting to be done. I just didn't get inspired to do it. Hehehe.

 

Yes the word response does sound a bit contrived does it not? Actually it was used in context of Tragardh's comment.

 

Yes, words are sometimes insufficient in presenting our thoughts.

 

The word *mindlessness* here - is it something like what a highly-trained martial artist would have habituated? To move, defend and attack intuitively? Correct me please if i'm off the mark.

 

I need to say "yes" in reply to your question. 'Mindlessness' here suggests without expection of anything specific but open to anything - full awareness and preparedness (yucky word) for anything. Kinda' like reading the intention of the forthcoming action before it has taken fruit. This is where the MA would be able to utilize the energy of the opponent because he is already 'aware' of the energy that is forthcoming and would be able to utilize it to his/her own advantage.

 

Alan Watt's interpretation (as well as a few other philosophers i think) of WWW is *doing without doing* which, to my limited understanding, seem a fraction contradictory to what you mentioned here regarding intuition inspiring a response, as in action/reaction, or mindfulness as you understand it.

 

I admire Alan Watts but I have not read any of his works because he is very heavily influenced by Buddhism and I try to keep my Taoism as pure as possible.

 

"Doing without doing" is a fair translation of 'wei wu wei' but it is incomplete if it stands alone as a definition of the concept. Even the phrase that I use, 'action without alterior motive', is incomplete. I will gladly welcome additional input from Stig or anyone else concerning what I am about to say.

 

"Wei wu wei" is action/reaction in a manner that is most consistent to what would happen as a natural course of nature. (That's sounds horrible.) An example is needed.

 

You are walking down the sidewalk of a heavily trafficed raod. You see a child in the street who is in danger of being hit by an automobile. You rush out and grab the child and carry it out of harm's way. You just did a 'wei wu wei'. That is, you did not consider that you might be hit by an oncoming vehilce in the process; you did not consider that if you save this child's life you might be rewarded somehow. You did what needed to be done without alterior motive. It was a natural response to save the life of the child. You put the child down on the sidewalk and went along your way.

 

"Wu wei" (doing nothing) could not apply here because you, because of your true nature, could not do nothing and just watch the child be hit by an oncoming vehicle. But you were 'aware' and you knew, instinctively, that you had to act and that there was a good chance you could save the child without you first being hit by an oncoming vehicle.

 

"Wu wei" allowed you to be fully aware and "wei wu wei" allowed you to save the life of the child. (You might have been hit but that didn't matter and you might have been offered a reward afterwards but that didn't matter either.)

 

(I do like a particular understanding regarding mindfulness within the buddhist thought, the one which reminds us that when a person whose mindfulness is complete, subject/object is transcended, where doer and doing becomes one, merged, fused, hence lessening the potential for gross karmic imprints in the mindstream). Just wanted to share this with you as an afterthought!

 

Cheers M! Be well.

 

Yes, I suppose that the action above would add to your good karma. You and your actions became one with the life of the child and its condition. The child had an abundance of good karma because the processes of nature put you in a position to do what you did. (This being said with the understanding that I, personally, do not hold to the concept of karma. Hehehe.)

 

So mindlessness allows us to be aware and transcend subject/object but yet mindfullness (being aware of everything that is going on around us) allowed us to respond naturally to the conditions.

 

And, of course, from a Buddhist perspective, your life and the life of the child are now linked karmically whether or not you ever see that child again.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I understand 'Wu Wei' to indicate acting without an 'intended result'.. a need is revealed, your 'nature' responds.. and the result 'is what it is'.. intending a result limits potential, trusting your 'nature' (Tao) the appropriate result is manifest..

 

Be well..

[33865_1494798762]

Yes, not responding sometimes is in itself, a response. A bit like trying not to try something. I think i can see what you have tried to say here. Very good, thanks!

As it says on your sleeve : "Not searching for the Way, one will never get lost"

spoken like a libereated

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Have I mentioned I love being liberated from all dogma?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Your lack of agnosticism towards, "past and future lives", "ghosts", "other dimensions of experience"... could be considered a mental dogma.

 

Dogma is just an idea that one holds to as reality, it's not necessarily religious.

 

p.s. Not trying to offend, just point that out.

[goldisheavy]

Hi all!

 

A friend asked me this question not so long ago - "What does profound, unobstructed liberation mean?"

 

There is no way to answer this correctly. Liberation cannot be summarized. It's not an attitude. It's not a state of some kind. It's not something that's separate from the states. Etc. Etc...

 

If you will, liberation is a kind of mysterious maturation of one's reasoning faculties. Reasoning faculties are the ones that provide insight.

 

Actually there is a spiritual practice of asking this question every time you get a chance. So you visit your spiritual master and ask this very same question. But each time your master gives a spontaneous and different reply. After hearing about 10,000 of those replies, you begin to get it.

[Marblehead]

Your lack of agnosticism towards, "past and future lives", "ghosts", "other dimensions of experience"... could be considered a mental dogma.

 

Dogma is just an idea that one holds to as reality, it's not necessarily religious.

 

p.s. Not trying to offend, just point that out.

 

Hehehe. Good try V.

 

If anyone could show me just one rational and logical reason why I should believe in such matters I would probably give it another thought or two. Remember, I considered such matters when I was reading Buddhist literature and in the end ignored it as I found no reason to accept the ideas.

 

Isn't it true that we all, when we find something that works for us, want to remain with something?

 

Look at yourself in this regard. You are extremely fixed in your understandings. They are probably 'right' for you; I don't know - can't see inside your brain.

 

So why in the world would I want to give up something that works perfectly for me to only become totally confused? That is not rational or logical.

 

You don't live very far from where I live. Bring one of your ghosts over for a visit and let's see what happens.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited October 27, 2009 by Marblehead