Clearing up Buddhism by the thuscomeone

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional"... and Life is what one chosses it to be.. One of my favorite quotes (paraphrased, i'm sure): "Don't walk in the footsteps of others, seek what they sought.. in your own 'way'"

 

J' Krishnamurthy said: "Truth is a pathless land", and i find that to be consistent with my own experiences.. a 'path' chosen, is a limitation embraced..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

... a 'path' chosen, is a limitation embraced ...

 

Be well..

 

I so much like that. I hope that one day I will no longer feel the need to label myself.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Thank you Marblehead.. i deeply appreciate your ability to sense (sensibility??) my message through my idiosyncracies...

 

Be well..

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The pathless path, the viewless view... dependent origination/emptiness.

 

Take care!

 

EDIT: I would rather say here... inter-dependent-arising.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Marblehead]

 

The pathless path, the viewless view... dependent origination/emptiness.

 

Take care!

 

EDIT: I would rather say here... inter-dependent-arising.

 

Oh V., you just go ahead and say whatever it is you feel you need to say. You always do anyhow. Hehehe.

 

No, we are not becoming Buddhists, it is just that there are a number of similarities between Buddhism and Taoism.

 

Yeah, we Taoists like to walk where no one has walked before. Is that the pathless path? The viewless view? No, I don't buy that. How about the the view without preconception?

 

If we can see the beauty in what others have defined as ugly then we are beyond duality.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sunya]

Oh V., you just go ahead and say whatever it is you feel you need to say. You always do anyhow. Hehehe.

 

No, we are not becoming Buddhists, it is just that there are a number of similarities between Buddhism and Taoism.

 

Yeah, we Taoists like to walk where no one has walked before. Is that the pathless path? The viewless view? No, I don't buy that. How about the the view without preconception?

 

If we can see the beauty in what others have defined as ugly then we are beyond duality.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

"we"?? why do you keep using "we" if not to feel all fuzzy and warm inside?

[Marblehead]

"we"?? why do you keep using "we" if not to feel all fuzzy and warm inside?

 

Hehehe. I like we. I gets boring. I can have more fun with we. And yes, I enjoy feeling all fuzzy and warm. I even like getting all hot and sweaty.

 

Or maybe it was because I had to go wee-wee.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"we"?? why do you keep using "we" if not to feel all fuzzy and warm inside?

I cannot speak for others, but.. when 'i' use the term "we" it is a recognition of the inherent Unity of all things, regardless of perception or belief..

 

As i contemplate these postings, it occurs to me that the vast majority of philosophical conflict is nothing more than sophisticated 'mind-play'... it seems like most 'spiritual' folks are working the process in reverse, playing-out conceptual beliefs toward a speculated result.. 'my' understanding of Taoist philosophy, is that the 'conceptual understandings' are used to enhance the Human Experience.. so much focus on conceptual differences (Taoism vs. Buddhism vs. Christianity vs. Great Spirit vs. etc....) lacks any sincerity for enhancing the Human Experience, and.. IF i believed in the notion of an "Ego", it would imply a substantial attachment to that notion..

 

'My' understandings of Taoist philosophy and history suggest such 'mind-play' is wholly contradictory.. i have 9 translations of Tao Te Ching and 8 translations of I Ching, and 4 translations of Chuang Tzu.. i sense that any of those original authors would be disapointed in the majority of this forum's version of Taoism.. but, that's just me.. i experience Life with such gusto and such appreciation for the opportunity to experience the process from a tangible perspective, that the disrespect and quibbling mind-play feels like a festering malignancy.. but, again, that's just me.. of course, it's ALL Tao.. then again, there's water from a bubbling spring and there's water in a cesspool, and i do favor one over the other for nousishment..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

As i contemplate these postings, it occurs to me that the vast majority of philosophical conflict is nothing more than sophisticated 'mind-play'...

 

Oh, You have noticed that, have you? Hehehe.

 

You are right, of course.

 

However, as long as there are players I am willing to play. Play is fun as long as we don't start thinking that our play is actually serious and meaningful.

 

But even in our play we sometimes do get to discuss concepts of value.

 

Peace & Love!

[thuscomeone]

By 'manifestation' I'm saying, experience.

 

Awareness is the experience. The experience of a red flower is awareness. The experience of bird chirping is awareness. The experience of thought is awareness. There is no seer, thinker, feeler, separate from the flow... but rather there is just the entire flow of experiences/experiencing which dependently originates. We are sentient beings endowed with the sense organs and can experience (just using 'I' as a convention here, I don't mean to say there is a separate experiencer). Inanimate things are insentient and cannot experience.

 

And experience arises dependent with all other conditions and factors which includes non-sentient elements (i.e. the five elements, fire, water etc etc.). Water and fire itself are non-sentient, without minds, and cannot experience itself. Without sense organs what kind of experience can it have? None. But with our sense organs and with the sense objects, the sensory consciousness of having seen, felt, water and fire, etc. manifests. And there are six kinds of consciousness (visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile and mental consciousness). So the context of the manifestation is all these factors and conditions, it is not a metaphysical substance of the universe or something of that sort.

 

Under the influence of ignorance, dualistic consciousness split into subject and object arise, but with wisdom, one experiences all these as the radiance of non-dual awareness. The same non-dual manifestation wrongly perceived (i.e. dualistically, inherently) is ignorance/samsara, the same manifestation rightly perceived is wisdom/nirvana. There is no other non-dual awareness apart from these manifestations.

 

Awareness is all that is manifest, there is no other unmanifest or unborn thing transcending manifestation. This is eternalism. There can be freedom from grasping to manifestation, but there is no metaphysical essence that transcends manifestation. Rather all there is is manifestation arising moment to moment along with the context of all the factors and conditions.

 

I believe this post should also clarify rebel and thuscomeone's questions.

Ok Xabir, I'm back. So awareness being non dual to you means that it depends upon external phenomena in order to be? So awareness and external phenomena are linked together in that way and in that sense they are non dual. Non dual that you are talking about is not that awareness and external phenomena are one in the same but are just linked together through dependent arising aka awareness cannot be without external phenomena. So you are just talking about dependent origination...?

 

And I found this quote from the shurangama sutra. What does this mean to you?

 

"Your mind and your body, and all the mountains, rivers, and spaces of the

earth are merely phenomena that exist within the One Bright True Mind."

Edited November 1, 2009 by thuscomeone

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

However, as long as there are players I am willing to play. Play is fun as long as we don't start thinking that our play is actually serious and meaningful.

Hi Marblehead: Yep, it's the only game in town.. well, you could pretend you don't exist.. then, tell everyone else they don't exist either, but.. kinda just ends up non-existent.. Or:

Awareness is the experience. The experience of a red flower is awareness. The experience of bird chirping is awareness. The experience of thought is awareness. There is no seer, thinker, feeler, separate from the flow..

One could pretend that 'Awareness is the experience'.. but, what is 'it' that is aware? Awareness is that quality of Consciousness that finds and returns information.. Awareness doesn't exist apart from or prior to Consciousness, they arise mutually.. experience IS the 'experience', awareness merely informs us of that experience..

Awareness is all that is manifest, there is no other unmanifest or unborn thing transcending manifestation.

While i admire such a 'leap of faith', i cannot support the total absence of plausibility. "A rose, by any other name, is still a 'Rose'. And, Nihlism, by any other name, is still 'Nihlism'". Awareness is simply an attribute of Consciousness, and.. YES, it's a very important and very cool attribute..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

Hi Marblehead: Yep, it's the only game in town.. well, you could pretend you don't exist.. then, tell everyone else they don't exist either, but.. kinda just ends up non-existent.. Or:

 

Yep. But that would be a delusion, wouldn't it? And as I have spoken out that we must never confuse our delusions with reality I think it would be very hypocritical of me if I were to do that.

 

One could pretend that 'Awareness is the experience'.. but, what is 'it' that is aware? Awareness is that quality of Consciousness that finds and returns information.. Awareness doesn't exist apart from or prior to Consciousness, they arise mutually.. experience IS the 'experience', awareness merely informs us of that experience..

Be well..

 

No pretending. Okay? This is serious business. Hehehe.

 

Ah! Awareness vs experience. I think we have two separate concepts here. We can have an experience without having a clue as to what the heck happened. However, awareness can present itself without experience, as in deep meditation.

 

On awareness and consciousness, I will agree that there need be cognitive consciousness in order to realize awareness. But, we do have a form of awareness during our conscious hours so I guess that in most cases an experience and awareness of that experience exist simultaniously. But when I speak of awareness I am generally speaking to the awareness of deeper concepts and inspirations.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

While i admire such a 'leap of faith', i cannot support the total absence of plausibility. "A rose, by any other name, is still a 'Rose'. And, Nihlism, by any other name, is still 'Nihlism'". Awareness is simply an attribute of Consciousness, and.. YES, it's a very important and very cool attribute..

 

Be well..

 

I agree... As consciousness arises dependent upon various causes and conditions, so awareness does as well and is the cause of liberation or bondage, is not a supreme substance... but is the supreme gate for an individual. So is considered the supreme source of liberation or bondage according to Buddhism.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

But when I speak of awareness I am generally speaking to the awareness of deeper concepts and inspirations.

Hi Marblehead: Do you consider the 'deeper concepts and inspirations' to not be 'experiences'?

However, awareness can present itself without experience, as in deep meditation.

Is deep meditation not an experience?

In deep meditation, or in deep sleep.. i sense that the 'stilled mind' begins to detach from the structure of the local mind.. that 'structure' is largely the result of programming, some consentual, some imposed.. but, as the 'structure' is temporarily dismantled, Clarity emerges.. Consciousness realizes its inherent Unity/Oneness, it re-establishes coherence with its Oneness.. and, focuses its awareness in Oneness.. we have experiences, energetic activity wherever, in the Cosmic existence, that Consciousness focuses its awareness.. returning to local awarenesss, we recall these experiences as dreams, insights, intuitions, visions, etc.. and, due to the same structure/programming, we simply have no frame of reference to recall some of these non-local experiences.. these are the intervals of 'nothingness'.. These are truly profound experiences when allowed to 'mature', but.. often the experience is so 'charged', that the mind engages just to absorb the experience completely..once engaged, the 'mind' will tell itself great stories about these experiences, it add lavish embellishments, and seek consensus and validity.. the mind will construct pathways and rituals so others can have similar experiences and support your 'mind's stories.. but, wise people discovered ways to control the mind, to harness its logic and reasoning for distilling the 'stories' into cross-referenced categories.. now, the mind has fully engaged and 'thinks it knows'.. soon, it realizes that its 'structure' is so complex that it only understands 'stories' about itself..

 

We still the mind.. we stop telling ourselves stories.. and, we Be Well...

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

Hi Marblehead: Do you consider the 'deeper concepts and inspirations' to not be 'experiences'?

 

Is deep meditation not an experience?

In deep meditation, or in deep sleep.. i sense that the 'stilled mind' begins to detach from the structure of the local mind.. that 'structure' is largely the result of programming, some consentual, some imposed.. but, as the 'structure' is temporarily dismantled, Clarity emerges.. Consciousness realizes its inherent Unity/Oneness, it re-establishes coherence with its Oneness.. and, focuses its awareness in Oneness.. we have experiences, energetic activity wherever, in the Cosmic existence, that Consciousness focuses its awareness.. returning to local awarenesss, we recall these experiences as dreams, insights, intuitions, visions, etc.. and, due to the same structure/programming, we simply have no frame of reference to recall some of these non-local experiences.. these are the intervals of 'nothingness'.. These are truly profound experiences when allowed to 'mature', but.. often the experience is so 'charged', that the mind engages just to absorb the experience completely..once engaged, the 'mind' will tell itself great stories about these experiences, it add lavish embellishments, and seek consensus and validity.. the mind will construct pathways and rituals so others can have similar experiences and support your 'mind's stories.. but, wise people discovered ways to control the mind, to harness its logic and reasoning for distilling the 'stories' into cross-referenced categories.. now, the mind has fully engaged and 'thinks it knows'.. soon, it realizes that its 'structure' is so complex that it only understands 'stories' about itself..

 

We still the mind.. we stop telling ourselves stories.. and, we Be Well...

 

It seems we are at odds regarding the usage of the word "experience".

 

I was using the word to describe an interaction between myself and externals. "I experienced a light breeze on my naked chest."

 

What you spoke to above I refer to as (recognition of) awareness. Yes, it was an experience.

 

My words don't always come out well at first shot but I try to keep my discussions either in 'yo' or 'wu' and try very hard to never mix the two in a discussion. To do so would be doing what I often accuse Buddhists of doing.

 

And I do agree with you reagrding what you said above about cleansing one's mind in order to allow the state of 'wu' to enter.

 

Peace & Love!

[xabir2005]

Ok Xabir, I'm back. So awareness being non dual to you means that it depends upon external phenomena in order to be?

First of all.. mindstreams are not dependent but mutually dependent on matter as explained earlier. The mindstream can exist (in the relative, non-independent sense) without body, can exist without the 5 senses, in a sense of purely mental realm, during death, sleep, or meditative absorptions. This mindstream thus transcends bodily death and is a process that continues from lifetime to lifetime without being in any way an independent, permanent essence, soul, or atman. The mindstream is entirely phenomenal and continues as a process.

 

So does plants have mind? No, they do not have mind (in buddhism the sixth sense), plus they do not have the 5 senses. Sentient beings have minds, and usually have the rest of the 5 senses.

So awareness and external phenomena are linked together in that way and in that sense they are non dual. Non dual that you are talking about is not that awareness and external phenomena are one in the same but are just linked together through dependent arising aka awareness cannot be without external phenomena. So you are just talking about dependent origination...?

Both internal (thoughts and mental realm) and external phenomena (sensory perception), so to speak, are non-dual awareness. Non-dual awareness isn't dependent on them, it IS them (the experience of thoughts, sensory awareness, etc), and the entire display of phenomena itself dependently originates along with all the factors and conditions that gives rise to the moment of manifestation.

And I found this quote from the shurangama sutra. What does this mean to you?

 

"Your mind and your body, and all the mountains, rivers, and spaces of the

earth are merely phenomena that exist within the One Bright True Mind."

All that you experience are Mind itself, they are not external to Mind. Usually we experience mountains, rivers, as 'out there' and I/my mind is 'in here' looking at 'that thing'.

 

In non-dual experience the duality of inner and outer division dissolves and there is no longer the sense that there is a separate 'you' experiencing everything, but rather, all there is is Everything experiencing itself. Hence you no longer have the view of a separate mind but see that All is Mind. What we originally thought to be a 'mind' inside our head turns out to be all the manifestation itself. The mountain, the rivers, are all manifestation of Mind, there's no longer a sense that it's 'outside' -- it's all Mind, while understanding that this Mind is not an independent substratum and source of things but rather is pointing to the fact that our true nature (luminosity and emptiness inseparable) is not other than all the entire display.

Edited November 1, 2009 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Edited November 1, 2009 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

It's good you understand that non-duality in Buddhism is not because everything is one substance, or arising from a single substratum or source, but rather that all the multitudes of things are just empty of inherent existence, so it's a non-substantial non-duality.

First of all Xabir, vajra said this earlier in this thread. Now this is non duality according to him. It seems to me that you are talking about a different non duality than he is. Perhaps you have realized something he has not. But you two are two of the biggest buddhism experts on this board and I have not heard him say what you have been saying to me regarding non duality.

First of all.. mindstreams are not dependent but mutually dependent on matter as explained earlier. The mindstream can exist (in the relative, non-independent sense) without body, can exist without the 5 senses, in a sense of purely mental realm, during death, sleep, or meditative absorptions. This mindstream thus transcends bodily death and is a process that continues from lifetime to lifetime without being in any way an independent, permanent essence, soul, or atman. The mindstream is entirely phenomenal and continues as a process.

 

So does plants have mind? No, they do not have mind (in buddhism the sixth sense), plus they do not have the 5 senses. Sentient beings have minds, and usually have the rest of the 5 senses.

Both internal (thoughts and mental realm) and external phenomena (sensory perception), so to speak, are non-dual awareness. Non-dual awareness isn't dependent on them, it IS them (the experience of thoughts, sensory awareness, etc), and the entire display of phenomena itself dependently originates along with all the factors and conditions that gives rise to the moment of manifestation.

All that you experience are Mind itself, they are not external to Mind. Usually we experience mountains, rivers, as 'out there' and I/my mind is 'in here' looking at 'that thing'.

 

In non-dual experience the duality of inner and outer division dissolves and there is no longer the sense that there is a separate 'you' experiencing everything, but rather, all there is is Everything experiencing itself. Hence you no longer have the view of a separate mind but see that All is Mind. What we originally thought to be a 'mind' inside our head turns out to be all the manifestation itself. The mountain, the rivers, are all manifestation of Mind, there's no longer a sense that it's 'outside' -- it's all Mind, while understanding that this Mind is not an independent substratum and source of things but rather is pointing to the fact that our true nature (luminosity and emptiness inseparable) is not other than all the entire display.

Ok I get the mindstream part but I still do not know what you are getting at in terms of non duality. I have said awareness IS phenomena. You said yes that is correct. I then brought that statement to it's logical conclusion -

1.) awareness is phenomena

2.) for there to be phenomena there must be awareness

3.) there was a time when sentient beings capable of awareness were not present on earth.

4.) since there were phenomena before there were sentient beings then awareness was present before sentient beings were present

Now I said that awareness IS all dependently originated and impermanent phenomena in the sense that phenomena cannot be without awareness. Awareness is not a source. It just IS everything. I did not mean by this that, for instance, trees are aware - that trees can think and feel. I meant that a tree's shape IS seeing awareness, the tree's sound IS hearing awareness. The tree is not aware, the tree IS awareness whether sentient beings are present or not.

 

As another example, my physical body is formed from various causes and conditions. But, it also cannot be without awareness. It's shape is seeing awareness, it's sound is hearing awareness, etc. These causes and conditions are also awareness.

 

Now, you said this is an incorrect understanding. And now you wrote this

"What we originally thought to be a 'mind' inside our head turns out to be all the manifestation itself. The mountain, the rivers, are all manifestation of Mind, there's no longer a sense that it's 'outside' -- it's all Mind"

 

...which seems to be in agreement with what you said was incorrect before. I'm sorry if I am making this hard. It is just not clear to me what you mean.

Edited November 1, 2009 by thuscomeone

[xabir2005]

Edited November 1, 2009 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

Edited November 1, 2009 by thuscomeone

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The experience of mountains and rivers are all manifestation of mind

 

 

Minds... not mind. But all minds co-manifesting are equally empty of inherent existence. That's dharmakaya.

[thuscomeone]

Minds... not mind.

Could you explain this?

[xabir2005]

Minds... not mind. But all minds co-manifesting are equally empty of inherent existence. That's dharmakaya.

Right... there is no such thing as a cosmic universal consciousness, that would be reifying consciousness into a Brahman, a metaphysical essence. There are just minds, but even minds being dependently originated are also empty of individual mind-ness... even so, all of them are only of one singular taste, the taste of luminous-empty insubstantial Mind.

 

Padmasambhava: However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present.

It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.

(On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor.

........

Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation

 

Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind --

Abide in an authentic, natural state.

One's own mind, unwavering, is reality.

The key is to meditate like this without wavering;

Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes.

In a pellucid ocean,

Bubbles arise and dissolve again.

Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.

So don't find fault; remain at ease.

Whatever arises, whatever occurs,

Don't grasp -- release it on the spot.

Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind;

There's nothing except mind.

Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death.

The nature of mind, awareness,

Uses the objects of the five senses, but

Does not wander from reality.

In the state of cosmic equilibrium

There is nothing to abandon or practice;

No meditation or post-meditation period.

 

~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment.

Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004...pontaneous.html

 

(great blog, btw)

 

No, no truly existing mountains for me. I've seen through that. It's all empty, dependently originated, not truly existent and not non existent, not both and not neither. I've been through that. But there is something else here that you are talking about that I can't get.

 

Is the realization that emptiness is form or emptiness and appearances/phenomena are inseparable at all close to what you are saying?

It is not the same yet not different.

 

What you are talking about is the emptiness aspect. I am talking about the union of luminosity and emptiness, the union of non-dual awareness and dependent origination.

 

You have to realise that everything is Mind, clearly luminous and vivid without subject-object duality, but at the same time, everything is Empty.

 

 

(3 October, 2009)

 

(11:25 PM) Thusness: u must always know that we do not deny luminosity but the empty nature must be realized

what must teachers focus is the luminosity aspect

(11:25 PM) Thusness: the brillant cognizance

(11:26 PM) Thusness: some neglect the brillant bright and over skewed towards emptiness

u must be able to integrate the 2

(11:26 PM) Thusness: it is vivid clear but empty

therefore like a dream but not a dream

(11:27 PM) Thusness: many mistaken that buddha talk about illusion

like a dream

(11:28 PM) Thusness: but all manifestation are just so, there is no exception

(11:28 PM) Thusness: formation after formation, manifestation after manifestation...endlessly according to DO

(11:29 PM) Me: what do u mean by buddha talk about illusoin

(11:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha taught that life and samsara are like dreams

but he was telling us that reality is dream like

like painting on a pond

(11:31 PM) Thusness: u must understand this clearly

that whatever DO is SO

(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no exception

 

(11:33 PM) Thusness: luminosity is like magical display

it is the very display

(11:33 PM) Thusness: that is why it is illusion like

Edited November 1, 2009 by xabir2005

[thuscomeone]

Right... there is no such thing as a cosmic universal consciousness, that would be reifying consciousness into a Brahman, a metaphysical essence. There are just minds, but even minds being dependently originated are also empty of individual mind-ness... even so, all of them are only of one singular taste, the taste of luminous-empty insubstantial Mind.

 

Padmasambhava: However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present.

It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.

(On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor.

........

Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation

 

Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind --

Abide in an authentic, natural state.

One's own mind, unwavering, is reality.

The key is to meditate like this without wavering;

Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes.

In a pellucid ocean,

Bubbles arise and dissolve again.

Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.

So don't find fault; remain at ease.

Whatever arises, whatever occurs,

Don't grasp -- release it on the spot.

Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind;

There's nothing except mind.

Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death.

The nature of mind, awareness,

Uses the objects of the five senses, but

Does not wander from reality.

In the state of cosmic equilibrium

There is nothing to abandon or practice;

No meditation or post-meditation period.

 

~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment.

Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004...pontaneous.html

 

(great blog, btw)

 

It is not the same yet not different.

 

What you are talking about is the emptiness aspect. I am talking about the union of luminosity and emptiness, the union of non-dual awareness and dependent origination.

 

You have to realise that everything is Mind, clearly luminous and vivid without subject-object duality, but at the same time, everything is Empty.

Well that is what I am trying to do. And so far I am not getting anywhere.

 

Right... there is no such thing as a cosmic universal consciousness, that would be reifying consciousness into a Brahman, a metaphysical essence. There are just minds, but even minds being dependently originated are also empty of individual mind-ness... even so, all of them are only of one singular taste, the taste of luminous-empty insubstantial Mind.

 

Padmasambhava: However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present.

It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.

(On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor.

........

Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation

 

Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind --

Abide in an authentic, natural state.

One's own mind, unwavering, is reality.

The key is to meditate like this without wavering;

Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes.

In a pellucid ocean,

Bubbles arise and dissolve again.

Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality.

So don't find fault; remain at ease.

Whatever arises, whatever occurs,

Don't grasp -- release it on the spot.

Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind;

There's nothing except mind.

Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death.

The nature of mind, awareness,

Uses the objects of the five senses, but

Does not wander from reality.

In the state of cosmic equilibrium

There is nothing to abandon or practice;

No meditation or post-meditation period.

 

~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment.

Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004...pontaneous.html

 

(great blog, btw)

 

It is not the same yet not different.

 

What you are talking about is the emptiness aspect. I am talking about the union of luminosity and emptiness, the union of non-dual awareness and dependent origination.

 

You have to realise that everything is Mind, clearly luminous and vivid without subject-object duality, but at the same time, everything is Empty.

(3 October, 2009)

 

(11:25 PM) Thusness: u must always know that we do not deny luminosity but the empty nature must be realized

what must teachers focus is the luminosity aspect

(11:25 PM) Thusness: the brillant cognizance

(11:26 PM) Thusness: some neglect the brillant bright and over skewed towards emptiness

u must be able to integrate the 2

(11:26 PM) Thusness: it is vivid clear but empty

therefore like a dream but not a dream

(11:27 PM) Thusness: many mistaken that buddha talk about illusion

like a dream

(11:28 PM) Thusness: but all manifestation are just so, there is no exception

(11:28 PM) Thusness: formation after formation, manifestation after manifestation...endlessly according to DO

(11:29 PM) Me: what do u mean by buddha talk about illusoin

(11:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha taught that life and samsara are like dreams

but he was telling us that reality is dream like

like painting on a pond

(11:31 PM) Thusness: u must understand this clearly

that whatever DO is SO

(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no exception

 

(11:33 PM) Thusness: luminosity is like magical display

it is the very display

(11:33 PM) Thusness: that is why it is illusion like

Yes, luminosity is the magical display. The magical display is appearances is it not? What else would it be? So emptiness + appearances...?

 

If not, then what is luminosity to you? Maybe it would help if we defined our terms.

 

And I'm quoting what I said here again because I want you to speak to it and I think it may be near what you are saying...

 

"Awareness is not a source. It just IS everything. I did not mean by this that, for instance, trees are aware - that trees can think and feel. I meant that a tree's shape IS seeing awareness, the tree's sound IS hearing awareness. The tree is not aware, the tree IS awareness whether sentient beings are present or not.

 

As another example, my physical body is formed from various causes and conditions. But, it also cannot be without awareness. It's shape is seeing awareness, it's sound is hearing awareness, etc. These causes and conditions are also awareness."

Edited November 1, 2009 by thuscomeone