karma and original sin

[rebelrebel]

Reading up at buddhanet, I came across this. Will someone please elaborate on how this is different from the doctrine of original sin because it sure as hell seems like it is approaching it very closely.

 

All this is karma:

What is the cause of the inequality that exists among mankind?

Why should one person be brought up in the lap of luxury, endowed with fine mental, moral and physical qualities, and another in absolute poverty, steeped in misery?

Why should one person be a mental prodigy, and another an idiot?

Why should one person be born with saintly characteristics and another with criminal tendencies?

Why should some be linguistic, artistic, mathematically inclined, or musical from the very cradle?

Why should others be congenitally blind, deaf, or deformed?|

Why should some be blessed, and others cursed from their births?

 

Sounds like punishment/sin to me. And the only way buddhists can be saved is by taking salvation in buddha and his teachings alone.

 

See where I'm going with this?

[mat black]

Actions and thoughts can create causes which involve a corresponding effect.

By doing things that cause suffering to ourselves and others, as well as engaging in habits of craving and aversion we in a sense, dull or cover over our original mind of understanding, clarity, wisom and compassion.

Once this has happened, unconcious patterns of behaviour can set in and we then may act them out without realising why, or what the effects are going to be.

Once we are in this state for a long time, we often don't remember why we ended up and are experiencing things the way we are.

The list that was provided is examples of various effects which are brought about by certain causes planted by the individual.

 

Buddhas' teachings (as I understand them) explain for us the process at work and how to free ourselves from this cycle of unconcious karma (cause and effect), continual rebirth, and so come to realise genuine freedom and peace.

Edited October 22, 2009 by mat black

[ralis]

Actions and thoughts can create causes which involve a corresponding effect.

By doing things that cause suffering to ourselves and others, as well as engaging in habits of craving and aversion we in a sense, dull or cover over our original mind of understanding, clarity, wisom and compassion.

Once this has happened, unconcious patterns of behaviour can set in and we then may act them out without realising it.

The list that was provided is examples of various effects which are brought about by certain causes planted by the individual. So they are not punishments per se, rather the response to the initial act.

When we realise that what we do has an effect, we then intend to those things which will not cause suffering to others or to ourselves.

Buddhas teachings explain for us the process at work and how to free ourselves from this cycle of unconcious karma (cause and effect) and to understand genuine peace.

 

Karma seems to be grounded in a cause and effect Newtonian universe. Therefor according to your theory, whatever actions I perform can have unintended consequences for eons. Why do you deny these reactions are not punishments? Don't you ever question this? Seems like original sin to me!

 

 

ralis

[varazslo]

If you explain the original sin as loosing the awarness of your true self (whatever it means), it can be same.

Buddhas 4 noble truth starts with: there is suffering. Originaly it's "bhava dhukha", where bhava means existing in dependence, and dhukha means, when the axis is not in the middle of the wheel. So karma of ignorace will follow us, until we get rid of the false identification with something dependent (ego), and find our center. But there is the buddha-karma after the enilghtment. That's why we have teachings. Because karma only means to DO. As long as there are intentions in you, you will have karma.

And minor mistakes won't follow you around. Only if you do them again and again. According to the rice-plant sutra, you plant rice, you harwest rice, but if you don't plant it again, but cook it, there will be no more.

An oversiplified explanation:

You are poor. So you decide to steal. You do it, but you start to explain it: I'm poor, I have the right to do this. This way you give permisson to anyone to steal, and you feel poor, so you will be robbed, to be poor again.

If instead of stealing you choose to give the little you have, it will give the feedback to you, that you have something you can share, so you will attract people who will share with you, and suddenly you feel rich. I know it sounds like "the law of attractoin", but as I see karma is just the the law of attracion. So this way you can change your karma. It is worth to be good.

 

From the buddhist point of view there is only one problem with it. You are not poor, not rich, but beyond that. As long as you feel one of this identifications, you have the experience of the poor or the rich. In a way, there is a teaching: pretend to be a Buddha, untily you became one.

Anyway my recomendatino: stop worrying about it!

Edited October 22, 2009 by varazslo

[TianhuaQigong]

original sin: someone told me that because a woman eat a apple,

 

karma:

all those "WHY" it is because karma, 3rd eye can watch what is cause of those "WHY"

 

such as during war time, a lady rubbed another lady's food, and push her into a well, and drop stone on her. the consequence are all her sons , grandsons, sons of grandsons, one leg are disabled at born,

 

There is a western book call "the Journey of soul " . it has a story, a high class lady in French is a very good personal, but she ridicule a old beggar on her street, in next live , she is a beggar , the even waster problem is " she also has psyche problem, do not even know to ask for food." that look not fair for us, but it is the rule of god.

 

and you have to believe in reincornation for KARMA.

 

there are good KARMA too. not all karma are bad.

 

in "Tao de jing" Karma called " rule of consequence"

 

Karma seems to be grounded in a cause and effect Newtonian universe. Therefor according to your theory, whatever actions I perform can have unintended consequences for eons. Why do you deny these reactions are not punishments? Don't you ever question this? Seems like original sin to me!

ralis

 

 

" a cause and effect Newtonian universe" is Karma in Physics

if you expend this "cause and effect" to universe with no time and space limitation, not limited in physics, expend to THINGS,

 

things include things, matter, time, space, life,.... that is Karma.

 

Karma is a rule apply everything, not only physics.

 

like Yingyang, it is rule or law of universe, it apply to everything

[Vajrahridaya]

Karma seems to be grounded in a cause and effect Newtonian universe. Therefor according to your theory, whatever actions I perform can have unintended consequences for eons. Why do you deny these reactions are not punishments? Don't you ever question this? Seems like original sin to me!

ralis

 

Yes, but you can change these consequences through right action. Through the 8 fold noble path, you change your destiny through your own effort.

 

Original sin is an idea that if we are born, we are sinners. That's not the case. It's just causation, we reap what we sow and that's it. If you put forth the effort to get a phd in math, depending upon other conditions, but if all conditions are ripe which have to do with the things you are doing to make that happen, it all bares fruit.

[Marblehead]

Well, I must reaffirm the fact that I do not accept the concepts of 'original sin', or 'karma', or 'life is suffering'.

 

That said, I will try to remain silent through the rest of this thread.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited October 22, 2009 by Marblehead

[TianhuaQigong]

Yes, but you can change these consequences through right action. Through the 8 fold noble path, you change your destiny through your own effort.

 

There is a story for Buddha, one day a woman with pregnancy symptoms come to his temple , told Buddha's students that the unborn belong to Buddha, ...., in the end, people find out that she do not even have a baby, she put a bowl on there. afterward, the students ask Buddha. you are Buddha already proved in the stage of empty, why still have this kind things happening, Buddha said in this world , Karma can not just gone, this things is because one of my life I did this this this wrong.

 

even Buddha are still controled by karma. what about us? so we are not fear with karma will happened , it will come anyway. we are fear to make new bad karma.

Edited October 22, 2009 by TianhuaQigong

[Prince...]

Reading up at buddhanet, I came across this. Will someone please elaborate on how this is different from the doctrine of original sin because it sure as hell seems like it is approaching it very closely.

 

 

 

There is no doctrine of Original Sin. St. Augustine was a heavy hitter in the church, but Original Sin, although a well-known concept was never completely embraced by the Church. The problem is that Pelagius, Augustine's biggest rival, and all of his followers were labeled heretics for opposing the doctrine.

 

As for the "woman eating an apple" comment-- in the second creation story which is the Garden story, the hebrew verbs used during that scene are all plural. Adam and Eve were both present together.

 

Pelagius taught that Adam fell for Adam, not for all mankind. The only original sin is the one you commit when you become aware of the difference between right and wrong. Redemption is available to those who seek it, if they choose to do so.

 

As much as people are offended by the concept of Original Sin, it actually weakened the Church-- not in that it offends people by calling them sinners, but because the solution is to simply come to Church and by just being a member of the body of Christ, one is guaranteed salvation.

 

I basically committed heresy in a class this morning because I said I don't buy that shit. Grace is simply us having the choice to pursue God consciousness, but Redemption/Enlightenment/Theosis/Salvation is not guaranteed.

[TianhuaQigong]

Redemption/Enlightenment/Theosis/Salvation is not guaranteed.

 

it is true. none of us are guaranteed, but that do not stop us to try, to explore . maybe some way works, and if it works that will be so beautiful.

[Marblehead]

... I said I don't buy that shit.

 

Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Creation]

I don't know about karma in particular, but the relationship of Christian doctrines like the Fall and original sin to Eastern religions/philosophies is a fascinating subject.

 

Prince, Augustine didn't get his doctrines from a vacuum. The stuff is right there in Paul's epistles. The question is did Augustine interpret it correctly?

 

Paul talks about the two natures of mankind: the spiritual nature and the carnal nature. The carnal nature is identified with mankind's tendency toward sin and depravity. Note that Paul does say that the carnal nature is something that is intrinsic to people from birth and does mention a connection with Adam and Eve. Note also that he does not say whether the spiritual nature is or isn't intrinsic from birth. I think this is the reason that the sinful nature has been so emphasized in Christian circles. But it need not be so. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that both natures are intrinsic to humans, and it is not too much of a stretch to say that both are needed but one has been corrupted, which is the doctrine of the Fall. Is this starting to sound familiar? Here is what it reminds me of: spiritual nature = pre heaven nature, carnal nature = post heaven nature.

 

One of the words Paul uses to describe the carnal nature is psuchekos (probably spelled wrong), as in pertaining to the psyche (as opposed to the spiritual nature being pneumatikos, or pertaining to spirit). In other words, our spiritual nature is something beyond our minds, while our mental nature has been corrupted and this is the cause of "sin". This, I think, was not understood as Christianity spread out into an environment stepped in Greek philosophy. I think if Christianity grew up in a place where Taoism was well known, the identification spiritual nature = pre heaven nature, carnal nature = post heaven nature would have been immediately recognized. It really makes perfect sense to see it that way. Think about the story of the Fall in Genesis. What was the cause of the trouble? Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then could no longer eat from the tree of life. WOW! That is just about as Taoist as it gets! (Note to TianhuaQigong: the common myth that it was an apple that Adam and Eve ate is a ridiculous corruption of the actual story)

 

As I write this, I wonder how good my memory of the Bible is and I remind myself that I am no expert in New Testament Greek. I could be totally off base with all of this. Caveat emptor.

[innerspace_cadet]

Karma and original sin are both suspect, in my view. I really don't think our actions have any consequences beyond this lifetime; I would be surprised if they did. Even if there is such a thing as rebirth, I don't believe our actions influence the result of future rebirths. And I don't think the simple act of pouring water over someone's head (Catholicism) can remove his original human depravity, because none exists to begin with. Life is meant to be lived to the fullest, without fear of being punished in some future life or lives.

 

All these concepts of "sin" and "karma" and "morality" are purely human constructs. That is not to say, however, that some actions are not objectively harmful to others, because they are. But to posit some future punishment for "karma" or "sin" is ridiculous. Both karma and sin operate from a child's sense of morality; I must do such and such, because if I don't, I will get punished. And if I am a good boy I will get such and such as a reward.

 

I've always questioned notions like "heaven" and "hell" because there is no such thing as an absolutely "heavenly" or "hellish" experience. Everything is relative. My existence on earth is heavenly to a Sudanese refugee, but it might be hellish to a Wall Street fat cat.

[Marblehead]

Karma and original sin are both suspect, in my view....

 

Nicely said. Of course, I agree with you so that is why I find it nice. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[varazslo]

I guess the biggest problem is, that there is no understanding, what karma means. We pick the subject from a totally different culture, and the we try to explain it with the terms of our culture. Maybe that's the problem with most of the things around eastern ways.

Karma is not faith, not a must do, not a punishment. It's your creating power. If you create stupid things, it's suffering, if you create nice things then it's nice. That's it. Enlightment is only beyond karma. Because karma connects only with a self. Who's karma is it?

[Marblehead]

That too was a nice post Varazslo.

 

Thanks.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

Karma as it is used today sounds like the New Age ism of "you create your own reality"

 

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

Karma as it is used today sounds like the New Age ism of "you create your own reality"

ralis

 

Yes, I think it is a grossly misused word in the West.

 

But I still don't hold to the concept regardless.

 

Peace & Love!

[TianhuaQigong]

Nicely said. Of course, I agree with you so that is why I find it nice. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

There are no prove that soul, Karma and heaven as well as hell in scientifically.

I was explore the true, and I was thinking that I may have the answer to myself . the problem is I can not show you :<

 

1. why in Tao ,Buddlish Bible .. all of them has talked about this same idea.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye . I have met some people with this eye opened (include me in a unstable condition ), they can watch the Karma.

3. in west , some Hypnosis can guide you find out Karma , without watching by 3rd eye. (those Hypnotist don't even know Karma,) during the Hypnosis some people can tell things in pass, at this time, if you ask "why we two get mirage ,? " or "why this health problem happened to ###?" . "why ##be $$'s son" they will told you a cause, that is karma. a exist.

 

and after talk with different people, those people who can watch with 3rd eye give me same story!!!!

 

you do not have to believe it, but you are controlled by it.

 

 

Those are words about Tao, such as "Tao is simple and precision" it also has meaning of Karma, what ever happen it has to precisely controlled by those simple laws, this process cause result are karma.

 

I also have seen karma in one's this life, he did something, something happened,

such as a man did business in a bad way, then he got sick, he saw doctor everywhere, till he spend all his money . he is good again.

 

one guy did something then run away, disappear, the girl hate him. he got cancer start from leg. please notice: "run away" and "leg"

Edited October 23, 2009 by TianhuaQigong

[thuscomeone]

Karma and original sin are both suspect, in my view. I really don't think our actions have any consequences beyond this lifetime; I would be surprised if they did. Even if there is such a thing as rebirth, I don't believe our actions influence the result of future rebirths. And I don't think the simple act of pouring water over someone's head (Catholicism) can remove his original human depravity, because none exists to begin with. Life is meant to be lived to the fullest, without fear of being punished in some future life or lives.

 

All these concepts of "sin" and "karma" and "morality" are purely human constructs. That is not to say, however, that some actions are not objectively harmful to others, because they are. But to posit some future punishment for "karma" or "sin" is ridiculous. Both karma and sin operate from a child's sense of morality; I must do such and such, because if I don't, I will get punished. And if I am a good boy I will get such and such as a reward.

 

I've always questioned notions like "heaven" and "hell" because there is no such thing as an absolutely "heavenly" or "hellish" experience. Everything is relative. My existence on earth is heavenly to a Sudanese refugee, but it might be hellish to a Wall Street fat cat.

Good post. Morality, good and bad are completely arbitrary/relative. Karma sounds to me like an absolutist sense of morality. "This" is good absolutely. "That" is bad absolutely. I just don't think life is that black and white.

[Marblehead]

There are no prove that soul, Karma and heaven as well as hell in scientifically.

 

Hi Tian,

 

I believe that you believe what you said is true.

 

For me, karma is nothing more or less than 'cause and effect'.

 

I do not hold to the belief of past lives.

 

I do not hold th the belief in places called heaven and hell.

 

I do believe that we each have a soul and a spirit. However, the soul, for me, is the unconscious mind and the spirit is the breath of Tao. When this body dies the soul dies with it. I have no idea what happens to the spirit.

 

I also believe that a person can loose the spirit of Tao by living a very immoral and mean life. But I also believe that one can always return to the spirit of Tao and regain the breath of Tao.

 

No, I'm not a Buddhist, I am a Philosophical Taoist so the Buddhist metaphysical concepts do not apply to my life.

 

But, I believe that Buddhism has some wonderful teachings so I do not reject the totality of Buddhism.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited October 23, 2009 by Marblehead

[TianhuaQigong]

 

I do not hold th the belief in places called heaven and hell.

 

I do believe that we each have a soul and a spirit. However, the soul, for me, is the unconscious mind and the spirit is the breath of Tao. When this body dies the soul dies with it. I have no idea what happens to the spirit.

 

 

but the final goal of Taoist is go to heaven.

 

"When this body dies the soul dies with it." when the body die , the body do not disappear, it is a exist, at this time the body is like a stone, the stone is not alive because it do not have a spirit. if body is still a exist, why soul disappear .

 

at this world nothing will just disappear, why soul will die or gone?

 

if "When this body dies the soul dies with it." then what is the purpose of the live

 

die just Yin (spirit ) and yang (body) separate, born is Yin (spirit ) and yang (body) come together.

Edited October 23, 2009 by TianhuaQigong

[Marblehead]

Hi Tian,

 

but the final goal of Taoist is go to heaven.

 

I will agree if you are speaking of Religious Taoists. Philosophical Taoists (most of us) do not believe in a place called heaven. The word 'heaven' for us is the word used to define the rest of the universe excluding Earth. That is all.

 

"When this body dies the soul dies with it." when the body die , the body do not disappear, it is a exist, at this time the body is like a stone, the stone is not alive because it do not have a spirit. if body is still a exist, why soul disappear .

 

My understanding is that the soul is our unconscious brain. When the body dies the brain dies as well. You are right, the body does not disappear right away. It is recycled slowly by the worms and bugs. It becomes substance for new life. But it is no longer 'me' because 'I' am dead.

 

The spirit, however lives on. But not as 'me'. It lives on as spirit. It has returned to the Mystery to be reused or not.

 

at this world nothing will just disappear, why soul will die or gone?

 

Yes, much of the Manifest world converts to energy and returns to the Mystery. Nothing lasts forever. Everything is constantly changing. Changing from one form of Manifest to another or changing from Manifiest back to Mystery in the form of energy. The soul dies because the brain has died because the body has died.

 

if "When this body dies the soul dies with it." then what is the purpose of the live

 

The purpose of life is to live. To live and experience the Manifest to the fullest of our capabilities and capacities. We are the manifest experience of Tao.

 

die just Yin (spirit ) and yang (body) separate, born is Yin (spirit ) and yang (body) come together.

 

Yes, many people view it that way. I don't because I consider the Manifest and Chi to be different aspects of Tao.

 

My understanding is that Chi permeates Mystery and Manifest is born. Chi is both Yin and Yang. But yes, creation is when Mystery and Chi come together.

 

Peace & Love!

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.youtube.com/yogeeshashram#p/a/7...C/0/2-9hxrIebRw

 

On the apple, Adam and Eve bit -- fascinating research Prince!

 

My interpretation into Taoism is this

 

The Tree of Life is the lower tan tien as the apple. The life force energy is Kundalini as the snake. The Tree of Knowledge to live like God is to eat the apple while communing with the snake -- sublimating the life force energy through the "microcosmic orbit" or "small universe" -- "small heavenly circuit" practice.

 

So in Western religion the left-brain dominant priests CUT OFF the Tree of Life from humans and therefore also the Tree of Knowledge, making

 

"original sin" as the lost connection with God in the Heart-mind of man -- which happens after the life-force energy as the Tree of Life connects with the Tree of Knowledge in the brain and then descends to the Heart where God is found.

 

God is the Shen or astral spirit light energy. Tree of Knowledge is the chi or electromagnetic energy. Tree of Life is the jing or electrochemical life force of the body.

 

But on an even deeper level is the INNATE NATURE or EMPTINESS of Taoism and Buddhism -- or the Pure Awareness of Hinduism --

 

which means that while God is a Spirit -- eternal truth is beyond spirit light and darkness -- beyond good and evil -- eternal truth is always-already awareness.

 

Christianity actually is an extension of the ancient Greek teachings which come from Egypt, Babylonian (Persia) and India and even China....

 

So when it's taught that God is "I Am that I Am" it's the same as the nondual awareness or Emptiness only externalized for the use of technological power through axiomatic logic.

 

I is the One whereas AM is the OHM or Tai-Chi symbol or the 2:3:4 of Pythagorean Kundalini teachings -- 2:3 is the yang electromagnetic chi while 3:4 is the yin or electrochemical jing energy.

 

Pythagoras (Snake or Kundalini Master) was the father of Greek Philosophy -- and he taught with music whereas in Taoism

 

the Perfect 5th music ratio 2:3 is YANG and the Perfect 4th music ratio 3:4 is YIN and the small universe microcosmic orbit "small heavenly cycle" that harmonizes the Tree of Life (lower tan tien) with the Tree of Knowledge (upper tan tien) to know God (the heart-mind middle tan tien) --

 

is a 12 note resonance practice (again the small universe microcosmic orbit is from the 12 notes of the yin-yang music scale!) -- the 12 notes of the music scale as the "infinite spiral of fifths" or yang spirit energy....

 

The process itself is eternal because it's asymmetrical whereas when Greek philosophy joined with Egyptian (Judaic) religion via Babylonia and Vedic mathematics (the concept of sunyata or zero as axiomatic logic) -- then the

 

"Greek Miracle" changed the natural resonance kundalini training into geometric mathematics -- the equal-tempered music scale is based on the square root of two -- so the original 12 notes of the music scale are now mis-tuned and Western music is brain-washing.

 

haha. Have fun.

[TianhuaQigong]

Hi Tian,

I will agree if you are speaking of Religious Taoists. Philosophical Taoists (most of us) do not believe in a place called heaven. The word 'heaven' for us is the word used to define the rest of the universe excluding Earth. That is all.

 

My understanding is that Chi permeates Mystery and Manifest is born. Chi is both Yin and Yang. But yes, creation is when Mystery and Chi come together.

 

Peace & Love!

 

"heaven" "sky" and "universe" are different as definition.

 

So far , base on Tao as our research , an logical explanation :

as a matter:

yang occupy space, Ying not, but full of space,

Yang can touch, ying exist as wave and energy

Yang and Ying can transfer each other

Ying speed faster then light

then everything are in logical, even some Phenomenon in "Quantum Physics " that and can not explain by scientist

 

most of Tao philosophical books written by Religious Taoists, and they are high level Religious Taoists live in Temple. and rear half of those books, all talked about heaven as well the existing Mystery tobe and

 

 

I am not trying to let anyone be a Religious Taoists, I am trying speak and explore the true, I am not even a Religious Taoists.

 

in live , to step one more step further is so difficult. I understand that

Edited October 23, 2009 by TianhuaQigong