Guest BestowTao Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) Hey everyone, I have recently been reading Chuang-Tzu and on chapter 16, "Mending the Inborn Nature," I was very excited to see what was to be said about bringing ourselves back to the original Way. The very first line confused me, which appears to be a good start! "THOSE WHO SET ABOUT MENDING the inborn nature through vulgar learning, hoping thereby to return once more to the Beginning; those who set about muddling their desires through vulgar ways of thought, hoping thereby to attain clarity - they may be called the blind and benighted people." Now I assume by 'vulgar' he means not insulting, but rather modern-day. Can anyone offer an analogy or more detailed explanation for this concept? I have finished reading the rest of the chapter, looking for context, but I have found none. Any help in my journey would be greatly appreciated friends! Edited October 25, 2009 by BestowTao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 25, 2009 Hey everyone, I have recently been reading Chuang-Tzu and on chapter 16, "Mending the Inborn Nature," I was very excited to see what was to be said about bringing ourselves back to the original Way. The very first line confused me, which appears to be a good start! "THOSE WHO SET ABOUT MENDING the inborn nature through vulgar learning, hoping thereby to return once more to the Beginning; those who set about muddling their desires through vulgar ways of thought, hoping thereby to attain clarity - they may be called the blind and benighted people." Now I assume by 'vulgar' he means not insulting, but rather modern-day. Can anyone offer an analogy or more detailed explanation for this concept? I have finished reading the rest of the chapter, looking for context, but I have found none. Any help in my journey would be greatly appreciated friends! Hello there BT...greetings! I cannot offer you any precise explanation i am afraid. Firstly, i have no grounding in this philosophy, and secondly, whatever i say may be biased by my buddhistic influences. However, from a very limited perspective, i would take the above phrase to mean that one cannot enjoy a bountiful harvest from ill-prepared soil. Thank you for offering an opportunity to gaze into a tiny aspect of Tao philosophy. Very practical indeed! Have a good day. CT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BestowTao Posted October 25, 2009 Thank you for the insight, CowTao! Your interpretation may very well be correct. I was very confused by his use of the word 'vulgar.' It is quite possible that the meaning of this sentence has changed, especially after 2500 years! Peace, BestowTao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 25, 2009 Hi BestowTao, What you presented is Burton Watson's translation? Let's look at James Legge's: "Those who would correct their nature by means of the vulgar learning, seeking to restore it to its original condition, and those who would regulate their desires, by the vulgar ways of thinking, seeking thereby to carry their intelligence to perfection, must be pronounced to be deluded and ignorant people." I think that this is speaking to the idea of returning to one's original nature. The "learned ones" (Confucius, et al) are credited with "vulgar learning" in that they try to return to man's original nature through rites, rituals, etc. It is suggested by the "learned ones" that man can return through knowledge. Chuang Tzu suggests the opposite - we return by unlearning. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 25, 2009 Thank you for the insight, CowTao! Your interpretation may very well be correct. I was very confused by his use of the word 'vulgar.' It is quite possible that the meaning of this sentence has changed, especially after 2500 years! Peace, BestowTao I would read 'vulgar' here as 'corrupt' or 'tainted'. Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 25, 2009 Hi BestowTao, What you presented is Burton Watson's translation? Let's look at James Legge's: "Those who would correct their nature by means of the vulgar learning, seeking to restore it to its original condition, and those who would regulate their desires, by the vulgar ways of thinking, seeking thereby to carry their intelligence to perfection, must be pronounced to be deluded and ignorant people." I think that this is speaking to the idea of returning to one's original nature. The "learned ones" (Confucius, et al) are credited with "vulgar learning" in that they try to return to man's original nature through rites, rituals, etc. It is suggested by the "learned ones" that man can return through knowledge. Chuang Tzu suggests the opposite - we return by unlearning. Peace & Love! *UNLEARNING* ... I like this very much! Its like, the more baggage one discards, the lighter one is, the swifter the journey. Unburdening oneself - coooool! Thanks M'head tis great! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zhuo Ming-Dao Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) They are using the traditional meaning of the word vulger - from the Latin word vulgaris, which means "coming from common, ordinary people." In modern English it is also often used to mean, "coarse, low, or ill-bred," which is where you got the idea that it might mean swear words or something. I think Marblehead is absolutely right to point you to the Confucian perspective to see what he is trying to criticize. Chuang Tzu uses Confucius and Confucian logic very often to act as a foil for his own philosophy. And in that same section, when music is invoked, it is supposed to remind you of Mo Tzu, and it critiques his desire to utterly get rid of music rather than trying to understand the role that music serves. It is very helpful in understanding Chuang Tzu to know some of the other major philosophies that he was responding to. You will also find many references to Yang Tzu's hedonist philosophy and the logicians (such as Kung Sun-Lung) who argued such things as how a white horse is not a horse. Many of these sorts of references will only make sense after you have read a handful of Warring States authors and can get down all of whom had which arguments. Looking back at my post, I realized the irony of my advocating more learning for a passage that advocates unlearning... oh well. Edit: Switched to the correct "coarse." Edited October 25, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 25, 2009 Looking back at my post, I realized the irony of my advocating more learning for a passage that advocates unlearning... oh well. Gave me a chuckle. Hehehe. Yes, that is ironic, isn't it? Of course, that is one of Lao Tzu's pair-a-docs. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted October 25, 2009 They are using the traditional meaning of the word vulger - from the Latin word vulgaris, which means "coming from common, ordinary people." In modern English it is also often used to mean, "course, low, or ill-bred," which is where you got the idea that it might mean swear words or something. I would concur with this. In terms of "coarse thinking", I believe Zhuangzi is referring to contrived or artificial rationale. He is distinguishing that we have subtle consciousness linked our De / Teh, maybe what you could call "The quiet voice of the spirit". An analogy maybe this: You can't see the view of the valley because of the trees. The coarse mind will bring in bulldozers and clear the trees away. The subtle mind will simply ascend the mountain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 25, 2009 I would concur with this. In terms of "course thinking", I believe Zhuangzi is referring to contrived or artificial rationale. He is distinguishing that we have subtle consciousness linked our De / Teh, maybe what you could call "The quiet voice of the spirit". An analogy maybe this: You can't see the view of the valley because of the trees. The course mind will bring in bulldozers and clear the trees away. The subtle mind will simply ascend the mountain. This analogy is rather like the practice of mindfulness in Buddhism imo. Sounds good! ps - Could the right word be 'coarse' as oppose to 'course'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted October 25, 2009 This analogy is rather like the practice of mindfulness in Buddhism imo. Sounds good! ps - Could the right word be 'coarse' as oppose to 'course'? LOL yes indeed ... "coarse" it is Appropriate editing done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted October 26, 2009 Chuang-Tzu was referring directly to this website when he meant "vulgar." So it's too late buck-o! haha. Hey everyone, I have recently been reading Chuang-Tzu and on chapter 16, "Mending the Inborn Nature," I was very excited to see what was to be said about bringing ourselves back to the original Way. The very first line confused me, which appears to be a good start! "THOSE WHO SET ABOUT MENDING the inborn nature through vulgar learning, hoping thereby to return once more to the Beginning; those who set about muddling their desires through vulgar ways of thought, hoping thereby to attain clarity - they may be called the blind and benighted people." Now I assume by 'vulgar' he means not insulting, but rather modern-day. Can anyone offer an analogy or more detailed explanation for this concept? I have finished reading the rest of the chapter, looking for context, but I have found none. Any help in my journey would be greatly appreciated friends! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Hey everyone, I have recently been reading Chuang-Tzu and on chapter 16, "Mending the Inborn Nature," I was very excited to see what was to be said about bringing ourselves back to the original Way. The very first line confused me, which appears to be a good start! "THOSE WHO SET ABOUT MENDING the inborn nature through vulgar learning, hoping thereby to return once more to the Beginning; those who set about muddling their desires through vulgar ways of thought, hoping thereby to attain clarity - they may be called the blind and benighted people." Now I assume by 'vulgar' he means not insulting, but rather modern-day. Can anyone offer an analogy or more detailed explanation for this concept? I have finished reading the rest of the chapter, looking for context, but I have found none. Any help in my journey would be greatly appreciated friends! I suggest you put this confusion on hold and read the rest of the text. Then find a few other translations and read those as well. Then, give it time to digest. Bring it to mind for contemplation for some time, like say for a month. Then if you are still confused, come back with your question. The reason I say this is because it's hard to understand Chuang Tzu's (Zhuangzi's) intent from the first line. So read more first. You'll have a better impression of what Chuang Tzu means if you read more of his thoughts. And since Chuang Tzu didn't speak English, you may want to read multiple translations as well, to make sure you understand the disagreements between translators and to allow your own interpretation to emerge. Edited October 26, 2009 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
