Taoist Science of Falling in Love

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I was having lunch with some colleagues and a women remarked that her friend had fallen in love with her husband because he was a good listener. I think that's really true for women; if the man can really sit and listen to her and actively listen and enjoy what she has to say, that's and big sign that there is real compatibility.

 

Chris Rock say men need three things, food, sex and silence. Fuck me, make me a sandwich and shut the fuck up. I'm paraphrasing, but it seems there is some grain of truth here. One of the hardest things to do in relationship is really sit down and make time to listen to each other on a consistent bases. For me, and probably men and general, listening is one of the hardest activities to really do well in a relationship. They say women utter about 3 times the number of words that men do, on average, in a given day.

 

In response to Kate's post, I think there is an art to successful relationships and I also think that Taoists have an advantage because part of the Tao is being a good listener and understanding that we are connecting to people. If you can develop this skill, I think you will have a lot more balance in your relationships. Women need to respect the silence in men and a man needs to honor a woman's need for authentic communication.

 

Mature Romantic love, I feel, can be a spiritual practice in itself and, if taken seriously and respected as such, can be an incredible tool for personal growth and self realization. It doesn't always to have the the element of 'falling' in love either. It can just be a mature love relationship that you have going. In a way I Think we could even separate romantic or courtly love and the mature love that grows over time in a real relationship. In fact I would even say there is a clear distinction.

 

If you have ever read Robert Johnson's work (anybody?), he talks in great depth about our western culture's obsession with what was originally called courtly love. It is from courtly love, explains Johnson, that our fascination with romantic love and our idealistic views on relationship have evolved.

 

There are three books in particular by Johnson that I want to recommend, We, He and She. He was a student of Carl Jung and is considered on of the most highly respected Jungian Analysts in the field today. He's like 90 something now and still has a regular practice part of the year in San Diego, CA. Anyway, courtly love came about in the middle ages and was associated with an offshoot of Christianity that worshiped the feminine ideal. Courtly love was typically prescribed between a married man, usually a knight, and a lady of the court. It was not a sexual relationship, but one of great romantic passion non the less. The knight, would seek to win favor with the object of his affection, the lady in this case, by winning battles and contests of strength and valor and returning with gifts to offer the lady. These were often the things that still associate with romance today; flowers, silks, poetry and other sentimental offerings. But again, in courtly love, the man and woman were often already married and sex, although often perhaps played upon and symbolically present, never really enters into it.

 

The idea is that the passion between the man in the woman is the driving force, compelling the man to ever greater heights of courage and conquest, mirroring his relationship with God and the divine, acted out through the feminine. Both Johnson and Jung believed, rightly so, that this ideal of courtly love has strongly carried over and is still the basis for relationships in the collective unconscious of the west. Johnson goes on to say that the our misinterpretation, as a culture, of the purpose and underlying spiritual significance of courtly love has been the cause and condition for a lot of suffering and a wrongly directed projection of the courtly ideal, something that was originally a form of spiritual practice, onto marriages and relationships in our western society.

 

The work that Johnson has done is very significant and extensive and I won't attempt to present his work here except to illustrate a few points about the way relationships work in the west and how we suffer more often than not if we hold to these unconscious patterns. I will also make a brief observation about how western and eastern relationships operate.

 

First of all, according to Jung, when men and women 'fall in love' in our culture; this is the unconscious (the true self, not the ego) projects the desire to commune with God onto another human being. For Jung, the soul of a man is the Anima, expressed in the feminine ideal; man's inner female. For the women, it's Animus, the inner man. These hidden aspects of our unconscious self are God in the form of the opposite sex and rooted in our mind stream as archetypal bridges to the divine within. They are very powerful and vary real forces, even though they are manifestations of the mind and the collective unconscious. If we understand their proper place, that they are part of God or part of the divine aspect of our own self nature, we can use them as tools for a truly spiritual life. They become doorways to the sacred aspect of our self and pathways to self realization. If your not familiar with Jungian work, this may sound unfamiliar and contrived, it's not; but you would have to do some research to fully grasp it.

 

The mistake that we in the west make is thinking that this inner projection belongs to our girlfriends and wives in the physical world. We are fooled into believing that the animus and anima are the woman or man in our romantic life. We see the divine, or project the divine ideal, onto ordinary people and that's where things get mixed up. When men fall in love, typically, according to Johnson, if they are not aware of their unconscious, they project it on to the women who then becomes the object of their romantic (from the practice of courtly love) love. "Oh, she is so amazing, there is no one else like her, she is the one." Of course no woman or man can live up to this ideal and as soon as the illusion is broken, usually after they have dated a while or married or whatever, they realize that that special feeling of being with some divine personage has vanished. In it's place is a normal person with problems and faults and pimples just like the rest of us.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that true love is the 'one that got away' and that's exactly the function of romantic love in our culture. You can never hold it in your hands, it will always slip away, like a dream upon waking. Usually, we start looking for someone else. Someone prettier, younger, Mr. Right or Mrs. Right. We don't understand that this holy image that we have fallen in love with is our own soul trying to penetrate our awareness. Most people who have been through divorce a few times or been married for a long time or had long term committed relationships that they were able to sustain and change with, begin to understand this on some level. But some people don't get it and keep going from one relationship to the next trying to catch what they cannot catch. Spiritual practice can also fall into this cycle.

 

The rightful place of the divine is of course in your own heart and must be nurtured and tended to very carefully and lovingly and with the knowledge and the respect to allow it to take its proper place and play its correct role. Until we go within, we cannot know God or find real peace; Jung called this process individuation, the process of separation and then reconnecting the ego to the unconscious with awareness. A very Taoist idea.

 

So what is real love than? Well, according to Johnson, we must, in western culture, enter love with the illusion. For most of us it's the only way to access the divine and eventually understand our relationship to the divine. So we have to operate within the limits of the culture we are born into to eventually break free of them. If we look at the divorce rate in America, it's not too hard to see that this is a very apt and accurate recommendation.

 

Real love is of course based on healthy boundaries, mutual respect and understanding, and of course friendship and attraction. Johnson often likes to contrast our western ideas about love with the eastern way of doing things where marriages are generally more stable and grounded and sex and passion are more aspects or parts of the relationship as a greater whole and not the whole itself. Of course this is a generalization, there are exceptions in every culture and eastern culture is becoming more westernized these days too.

 

So, the desire to fall in love can be and generally is based on false identification. It's a projection and completely mind dependent. There can be a more mature courtship that grows over time and becomes a strong bond that starts with friendship. That's what I'm looking for. This more stable and practical version of the modern love affair is based in reality and leads to a lasting bond and shared admiration where the divine in both partners is honored and acknowledged, but not wrongly projected onto the actual person. Two people who can share this kind of relationship are the luckiest people in the world. Two souls, awake together, supporting the other in a graceful and dignified way and not focused on how they can possess or benefit, but rather on what they can give and learn in return.

 

So my question, again, is what we can do to increase the chances of meeting that special someone to love; From attracting a mate to supporting and sustaining a mature, grounded relationship? I have my own ideas for sure, what are yours?

 

 

I think all you have said is very true. In the east the whole romance angle is not really valued that much. However I will say that due to western influence individual females are considering it more and more these days. But when it does come down to the actual marriage the families will suggest otherwise. This creates a specific problem of sadness and regret, simply because of not having had the right to choose.

 

It was I that mentioned the point of 'the one that got away'. However I would like to state something else. I have had one relationship that went beyond the normal psychological reactions to some degree. I was with someone for some time that had a very unusual connection to me, I can only describe it as a form of tele-empathy... as in what I felt she felt, and what she felt I felt. We had both confirmed this many times. I can't exactly describe the feeling..... all I can say is it went beyond anything I'd ever experienced before... some may say I'm romantisizing, and I wouldn't blame them, but I know the difference. Feelings are transfered all the time, but, sometimes a certain someone comes along and for whatever reason, karmic(?), vibratory simularity(?)and literally merges with you.

 

How can you find that? No idea.... but I recommend you don't find it, as part of finding it also seems to entail losing it..... and no one will ever be the same again.... and of course, they.... become the one that got away...haha.... circles within circles.

[matt007]

Do you suppose that you are analyzing love to the point where it can no longer happen? A farmer who incessently plows the field never let's the plants time to grow.

 

Are you asking me to shut up?

 

No, I don't suppose that. Both Johnson and Jung spent their lives discussing and studying the nature of love and human relationships and both of them had some of the most profound and deep romantic relationships you could imagine. Same with Helen Luke, Johnson's female counterpart.

 

I think knowing more about love does not preclude one from falling in love and neither does discussing it. Are you saying otherwise?

 

On the contrary, I feel like the discussion here is opening me up and helping me clarify my feelings and thoughts on the matter. Isn't that the point of a good discussion?

Edited October 29, 2009 by matt007

[matt007]

I think all you have said is very true. In the east the whole romance angle is not really valued that much. However I will say that due to western influence individual females are considering it more and more these days. But when it does come down to the actual marriage the families will suggest otherwise. This creates a specific problem of sadness and regret, simply because of not having had the right to choose.

 

It was I that mentioned the point of 'the one that got away'. However I would like to state something else. I have had one relationship that went beyond the normal psychological reactions to some degree. I was with someone for some time that had a very unusual connection to me, I can only describe it as a form of tele-empathy... as in what I felt she felt, and what she felt I felt. We had both confirmed this many times. I can't exactly describe the feeling..... all I can say is it went beyond anything I'd ever experienced before... some may say I'm romantisizing, and I wouldn't blame them, but I know the difference. Feelings are transfered all the time, but, sometimes a certain someone comes along and for whatever reason, karmic(?), vibratory simularity(?)and literally merges with you.

 

How can you find that? No idea.... but I recommend you don't find it, as part of finding it also seems to entail losing it..... and no one will ever be the same again.... and of course, they.... become the one that got away...haha.... circles within circles.

That's a pretty remarkable personal experience. I can definitely identify with having loved and lost. But with added dimension you mentioned, I can only imagine how remarkable it must have been to experience that within a relationship.

 

The greater the love, the greater the loss, so true my friend, so true. Beautiful man, thank you.

 

I will say that I don't regret any of the heartbreak I experienced as a result of love relationships coming to an end. I would much rather have loved and lost than never loved at all. Plus, I think this process help you transcend you illusions about love and is an important part of growing in relationships in the sense that you learn more about your self and others and what really brings true happiness.

 

True happiness, now there's a whole other discussion. It's not to be found in relationships, but in service to others and good works. That is the Taoist way and the Christian ideal as well and I feel it's true. But no one said you can't have personal love in your life and serve others too. We can look at our spouse as an aspect of the divine and serve in that way also.

Edited October 29, 2009 by matt007

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

This won't really help further the discussion, but I just can't resist. What a writer.

 

 

He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath

 

His mind would never romp again like the mind of God.

 

So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning-fork that had been struck upon a star.

 

Then he kissed her.

 

At his lips' touch she blossomed for him like a flower and incarnation was complete.

 

F.Scott Fitzgerald

 

The Great Gatsby

[matt007]

Do you suppose that you are analyzing love to the point where it can no longer happen? A farmer who incessently plows the field never let's the plants time to grow.

 

Incessantly plowing may not be prudent when farming, but in the bed chamber that is romantic love, incessantly plowing is the phrase of the day.

 

 

At his lips' touch she blossomed for him like a flower and incarnation was complete.

 

F.Scott Fitzgerald

 

The Great Gatsby

Brilliant

[Jade02]

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Love-Messenge...3653&sr=1-1

[longrhythm]

It's also available free on his site, and it's a very good read

 

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Love-Messenge...3653&sr=1-1

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

How can you find that?

Listen!! Listen to the energy.. our energies extend infinitely beyond the physical manifestation.. the 'resonance' is unmistakable, if the mind doesn't make a mockery of the experience.. without resonance the field may 'plowed' many times but the ground will not yield its potential..

 

Be well..

[matt007]

Well, it happened. I have developed a significant crush on one of the personal trainers at the gym I work out at. I'm pretty sure she is married. Why is this stuff so fucking random?

 

She is a total babe.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Well, it happened. I have developed a significant crush on one of the personal trainers at the gym I work out at. I'm pretty sure she is married. Why is this stuff so fucking random?

 

She is a total babe.

 

Ahhhh.... the forbidden fruit angle, the most attractive of all. Hardly random, she could of been the unattractive bag lady on the street corner, that would have been somewhat random, instead of the fit unobtainable personal trainer. Give her 'the gun show'.

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist wisdom on Human love can be summarized in the following poem:

 

 

人情濃厚道情微

 

道用人情世罕知

 

 

Edited November 19, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[EagleShen]

The problem we so often have with romantic love, and it's all over this thread, is attachment. Our culture equates love with attachment. Practice being unattached with love, yes even romantic love, and it can take you to the heart of the universe. Be in love with everything, fall in love everyday, fall in love for 10 seconds with a beautiful woman and then let her go, completely, fall in love with a beautiful sunset, and then let it go, fall in love with the breath coming in through your nostrils, then let it go, fall in love with an image of the goddess, then let it go, follow your desire and let it go. People make love out to be something different from everything else, it's not, the more cultivated women i know have taught me this perspective, and it's something i see in few men.

 

If you can love without attachment, the feminine will embrace you. The Tantric tradition has a lot healthier attitude to love IMO (i don't mean the tantra=sex new age westernise crap), if you can connect in with some genuine devotional stuff this could be helpful.

 

But just love, it's all there is, it's all you are.

[matt007]

The problem we so often have with romantic love, and it's all over this thread, is attachment. Our culture equates love with attachment. Practice being unattached with love, yes even romantic love, and it can take you to the heart of the universe. Be in love with everything, fall in love everyday, fall in love for 10 seconds with a beautiful woman and then let her go, completely, fall in love with a beautiful sunset, and then let it go, fall in love with the breath coming in through your nostrils, then let it go, fall in love with an image of the goddess, then let it go, follow your desire and let it go. People make love out to be something different from everything else, it's not, the more cultivated women i know have taught me this perspective, and it's something i see in few men.

 

If you can love without attachment, the feminine will embrace you. The Tantric tradition has a lot healthier attitude to love IMO (i don't mean the tantra=sex new age westernise crap), if you can connect in with some genuine devotional stuff this could be helpful.

 

But just love, it's all there is, it's all you are.

*pretentious*

[Aetherous]

I'm pretty sure she is married.

 

You should find out, man!

[matt007]

You should find out, man!

I know.

 

I'm taking a year off of dating to work on myself.

 

This girl is soooo hot it hurts.

[EagleShen]

*pretentious*

 

LOL.

 

Curious way to respond to someone sharing an approach they've found really helpful in their own life matt007.

 

Peace.