Intuition and Logic.

[Marblehead]

Hi Michael, Yeah, you still talk more than I do. Hehehe

 

I will realize a tree is real because I'll walk into it? because there will be a sensory response to it? do you think the physical body is real too? because you "feel" it?

 

Yes, my body is real. I just scratched my butt and it felt nice. Yes, the tree is real, I am real, and you are real too. That's just the way life is. It is called the Manifest. It is about 2 percent of the total mass/energy of the universe. But we are real none-the-less. Trees existed before there was man to perceive them. How could trees be a figment of our imagination if they existed before there were any man?

 

i'm not saying that the 'world' is an illusion, well I am.. except i'm saying that the illusion is dependent on mind. i'm saying that it doesn't exist as you think it does, in fact mind creates the world entirely because everything you experience is dependent on mind. it is conditioned, your whole reality is conditioned. everything is dependent on mind as a necessary condition, without that condition its just potentiality.

that's because you don't understand phenomenology, it's only illogical because you hold onto assumptions as axioms. the assumption that 'objects as representations' exist independent of your perception.

 

Yes, you have always said the the manifest world is an illusion. But you, Michael, can go no further back in history that when you were born. The universe has been manifest for 13.7 billion years. You are not that old. The only illusion is that you think things don't exist. Damn! Stop thinking so much and just enjoy life and all the physical pleasures of living! You mind creates nothing except your illusions and delusions. (Well, I need give you more credit than that but not here. Hehehe.)

 

And once again, I say to you that the tree exists whether you want it to exist or not. You play no role in the existence of the tree in my yard. None whatsoever. I don't need Michaels mind in order to think that I am scratching my butt. I'm a big boy; I can do that all my myself.

 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/

wow, I thought you studied Nietzsche? you're going to hold a Descartian view of cogito ergo sum ???

Fred totally rips apart that fallacy since the 'I' is inferred, there are just thoughts... where's the I? if it is 'you' that thinks. then.. stop your thoughts, right now. stop them.. and see what happens when you try. the 'I' is just another thought, yet more subtle than conscious thoughts. the 'I' is just a conditioned thought just like every other thought and action. that's why there is no such thing as free will because every thought is conditioned and there is no "I' separate from those conditioned thoughts that is doing anything.

 

Now don't you turn into Findley and start trying to knock my understanding of Nietzsche. Nietzsche was a realist. He also loved to dance. He never said he did not exist. What he said is that people had become herd animals by clinging to there unrealistic beliefs and that people needed to learn how to live again. One of his books expresses his thoughts very well "Ecce Homo" - "Behold The Man". He said "Look at me! I am man. And I live according to my free will, not according to some religious dogma."

 

what is 'head' and 'computer desk' ? they exist only as ideas dependent on mind. there's truly no such thing as 'head' or 'computer desk'

 

There's truely no such thing as Michael but I am going to hold to my delusion and pretend that you really exist and am going to continue to talk with you. My head exists. Yesterday it had a fair amount of hair on it but then I cut all the hair off and now I am a skin-head. And the computer desk exists else the computer (yeah, I know, the computer doesn't exist either) would be on the floor (yeah, I know, the floor doesn't exist either).

 

I'm learning Nietzsche from a Logician/Metaphysician who himself wrote a book on Fred. My professor is a smart dude, http://www.ericsteinhart.com/ and he teaches the subject very practically. there's no room for interpretation in our class.

 

I am glad you are making progress with your course. I'm glad you are also enjoying the professor. Oh, wait!!! Neither of you two exist. No room for interpretation? That would be boring. My first college course was English Composition. We had to read something and explain what we got from the reading. I stood up in class and presented my understanding and the instructor said, "No, you are wrong." How the heck could my understanding be wrong? The fact that it didn't agree with the instructor's understanding should have had nothing to do with it.

 

If you don't see the similarities between Nietzsche, Buddhism, and Taoism in terms of the dream-like reality of this mind-created world, then you don't understand any of the 3 philosophies.

 

Don't sell me short, okay? Like the good teacher, I teach you everything you know but I do not teach you everything I know. (Yes, Nietzsche said a few nice things about Buddhism.)

 

Nietzsche went to great lengths to show that our whole reality is a delusion, the brain has evolved for the role of survival.. not truth, we are programmed for error.. this was his "theory of errors". The belief that things exist as you perceive them is as false as a belief in a God living up in the clouds judging everyone. Nietzsche wrote so much about this topic, how all the 'sciences' only provide theories not actual explanations because they rely on the senses. to see truth is to face the abyss, which is the absurd, the illogical. you have to go against intuition and what 'seems right'.

 

No he did not!!!!! Nietzsche love life and love the physical things of life. Yes, he said that we ought give up our delusions, including our religions and live in the beautiful manifest as fully as possible. And he told us to dance too.

 

for Taoism its the same thing, take Zhuangzi and his metaphor of the butterfly. or other Mystics from every tradition. they all refer to this reality as a dream that must be woken up to. in essence that means that everything you perceive to be true is false. all beliefs and intuitions are false. the only way to awaken from the dream is to let go of perceived notions of 'what is real' and embrace the absurdity that everything you hold to be true is actually false including the belief in an 'I'

 

Remember, the recall of the butterfly dream lasted only a couple minutes after he woke up. Immediately upon waking he could not determine if he was dreaming of being a butterfly or if he was a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu. But then he realized it was only a dream of being a butterfly. He never, ever, ever suggested that he did not exist. In fact, he spoke of himself quite often and everything was in reference to his physical reality.

 

So intuition has lead you to believe that you do not exist. It is the conditioned intuition that applies here. You have convinced yourself that you do not exist even though you do. But logically, if you and I are having a conversation then you must exist because I would never imagine anyone like you. Hehehe.

 

Now it is time to go feed my fish that really exist.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

Hi CowTao: It is as you say.. i was speaking with a Buddhist friend who was trying to explain how "Life is suffering".. i said: if you can convince me that Life is suffering, you will have also convinced me of the great beauty of suffering.. naturally, she was quite annoyed with my perspective, so.. i asked: do you prefer the annoyance over the suffering? .. she became almost furious, so.. i said: pure joy is only a choice away, and it has nothing to do with 'my' perspective.. we didn't speak for a while, we stopped a nice pub and grill, ordered a couple of Sam Adams, and.. she smacked the crap out of me, saying: "Never call yourself a Buddhist, but.. yeah, this is a good beer".. that exchange resonated well with me..

 

Be well..

 

It's true that some Buddhists use this "axiom" as a very limiting dogma. Generally those that have not experienced the thirst quenching of the dharma as of yet and still suffer all the little unnecessary aggravations brought on by a mind compounded by a society of pointless desires.

 

They take up the first part of the 4 noble truths without giving credence to the other aspects. The 2nd noble truth declares that the source of suffering is ignorance, attachment, clinging. So even by clinging to the first noble truth the 2nd noble truth is not realized. Much less the 3rd which declares that freedom from the 1st noble truth is attainable. Thus revealing that the 1st noble truth is truly relative and not an absolute in and of itself like some all pervasive deity that is worshiped and venerated. "whooooo.... life is suffering... whooooo great lord....... this is the Truth, the Truth!!" I've also met Buddhists like this. I'm like... "Haven't you experienced the joy and wisdom of the 8 fold noble path? The 4th noble truth that declares the path itself that frees you from the 1st noble truth?"

 

Oh well... everyone has their process of progress.

 

I'll dance because I know how!

 

I'll cry blissfully and compassionately for everyone too... because...

 

Greetings..

 

There is no 'Life after this one'.. this one is eternal, though it is temporarily manifested as a tangible reality.. realizing this condition, the experiencer understands how even the temporary physical reality affects the evolution of the eternal process..

 

Yes truly there is no life after this one as this one is merely a display of seemingly real conditions without any discernible nature other than movement and impermanence. The realization of this is bliss and freedom.

 

But, I was speaking merely to a certain level or dimension of activity, namely. Birth, old age, and death, to re-birth, old age, and death... Just the illusion of delusion, that's all.

 

 

"What AM I"

 

Merely a process without any discernible source, or identity to become one with. My only purpose as a Buddhist is to realize the 3 kayas. The mind that knows emptiness and dependent origination all the time intuitively and suffers no more is the hyper blissful dharmakaya body. The voice that shines AS the energy of this realization is the sambhogakaya body. The emanation in whatever realm that reflects the knowledge and wisdom of these attainments is the nirmanakaya, body of impervious Buddha virtue beyond dualistic notions, walking, talking, living, doing whatever is necessary to help plant seeds of dharma.

 

Be well..

 

You too!

[Marblehead]

*****************

 

i'm trying to remain on topic here and the segue is: intuition is conditioned since it cannot be separated from belief.

 

 

Except for a couple of fine points I pretty much agree with you here.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So intuition has lead you to believe that you do not exist. It is the conditioned intuition that applies here. You have convinced yourself that you do not exist even though you do. But logically, if you and I are having a conversation then you must exist because I would never imagine anyone like you. Hehehe.

 

Now it is time to go feed my fish that really exist.

 

Peace & Love!

Marble... how many times do we have to go through this. We Buddhists see that we do exist, relatively, not ultimately. We only appear due to endless causes and conditions which also exist relative to endless causes and conditions.

 

This is all, we do not say that we don't exist. We say that we exist relative to everything else, and that's all.

 

Take care!

 

Please try to take this in... finally, and understand what we Buddhists are saying by "I do not exist". We say that only in the ultimate sense. Take away the causes and conditions for my existence and what do you have? My non-existence. Which is not possible because that's figurative speech, so yes, of course I exist, relative to everything else. We just see the emptiness of it all though, we see that it is relative so we don't cling to this existence as the end all be all. No permanent entity here. Just a process without a discernible nature other than impermanence and interconnected activities of processes.

[Marblehead]

Hi V., I thought I had irritated you enough so that you would never talk with me again. Oh well, I'll try harder the nex time.

 

One can't help a mind already made up. What you consider real is merely through the limits of your thus far remembered experience and this is all.

 

You are very wrong in this regard. But you don't exist so I'm not going to try to explain it to you. Hehehe.

 

You are so sure about what you do not know. Being more agnostic would suit intelligence a whole lot more. When even scientists with PHD's on the subject cannot yet determine if the mind is merely brain made or something subtler. You in all your glory have determined the reality.

 

Wonderful!

 

WTF are you talking about? The brain is what we realize reality with. You do not recognize reality therefore I wonder if you have a brain. The mind is the brain along with all the senses. That had been determined many years ago by the PHD's. You should read more stuff besides just Buddhist dogma.

 

One can't help a mind already made up. What you consider real is merely through the limits of your thus far remembered experience and this is all.

 

Better than having all the freaking delusions and illusions that some folks have.

 

You are so sure about what you do not know. Being more agnostic would suit intelligence a whole lot more. When even scientists with PHD's on the subject cannot yet determine if the mind is merely brain made or something subtler. You in all your glory have determined the reality.

 

Wonderful!

 

And you are so sure that you know that I don't know anything but it is you who suggests that only you and Michael have a full grasp of what reality is, and of course, this is the opinion that reality does not exist as I perceive it but it esixts only as you perceive it.

 

Remember, I have never said that your reality is the same as mine. It isn't. it never has been; it never will be. I can't have your reality. It belongs to you. But my reality belongs to me.

 

So what if we are both wrong? Will that change anything? I suggest not. Reality is what it is regardless of what anyone thinks about it.

 

And life goes on. Good thing I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. But then, you know that you will never convince me that you are right.

 

Now go play with your PHD's.

 

Peae & Love!

[Marblehead]

Marble... how many times do we have to go through this. We Buddhists see that we do exist, relatively, not ultimately. We only appear due to endless causes and conditions which also exist relative to endless causes and conditions.

 

And how many time do I have to tell you that I agree with you? Cheeezzzee! Yes, if my mom and dad had not had sex that very night I would not exist. But they did so I do.

 

This is all, we do not say that we don't exist. We say that we exist relative to everything else, and that's all.

Take care!

 

Okay. So we exist relative to everything else that also exists relative to everything else that also exists, ad infintium. Yes, cause and effect.

 

Please try to take this in... finally, and understand what we Buddhists are saying by "I do not exist". We say that only in the ultimate sense. Take away the causes and conditions for my existence and what do you have? My non-existence. Which is not possible because that's figurative speech, so yes, of course I exist, relative to everything else. We just see the emptiness of it all though, we see that it is relative so we don't cling to this existence as the end all be all. No permanent entity here. Just a process without a discernible nature other than impermanence and interconnected activities of processes.

 

Nothing is eternal except for the process of change. That is all. And we Taoists see the fullness of it all. Other than that we are in agreement.

 

So what can we disagree about next?

 

Peace & Love!

[Sunya]

Marble, not sure about the point of continuing this since its obvious that whatever i'm saying is just coming out as "!*@!*!)!!@!@)@*!" to you, but I would really recommend you that you read some good phenomenological works or meet a good teacher who can point all this out to you since I'm quite terrible at this. I'm trying to convey very subtle here, and you keep glossing over and generalizing and assuming. I'm not saying that when you go to sleep at night the world ceases to be.. it's more like "your" world ceases to be because "your" world is quite different from THE world. and in THE world there are no such thing as trees, people, colors, shapes, time, space, blah, bleem, bloop, and jab. we make that world up. what's Nietzsche say about morality? he says the same thing for math and science. it's all man-made. Nature is completely devoid of any distinction so how can math and science be true? Nature is completely devoid of time and space so how can location and time be true? Our whole world depends upon breaking reality up into separate subjects, objects, based upon our interpretation of what they look like through our limited, and defunct, sensory perceptions . and reason? logic? sure they are wonderful but they can only take you so far. the height of reason is the realization of absurdity,contradiction, and chaos. without x=x 'logic' falls apart.

 

So intuition has lead you to believe that you do not exist. It is the conditioned intuition that applies here. You have convinced yourself that you do not exist even though you do. But logically, if you and I are having a conversation then you must exist because I would never imagine anyone like you. Hehehe.

 

no, not intuition, rather the height of logic. and I don't believe it.. how can I believe it? beliefs are whimsical and based on projection and desire.. nothing to do with truth.

 

it is the conditioned intuition that keeps telling you that you DO exist. and it is this stupid intuition that keeps people from seeking endlessly and solemnly themselves. that stupid intuition that you exist is the prime cause and condition for the state of Lack that everyone and I mean everyone is in. this feeling of lack is projected into the world and the desire is there to BECOME REAL. I am.. but I lack.. I must become! I MUST BE! This is why we suffer, because we believe that we're real; but not quite. if we truly believed it then why are we suffering? because there's also a hidden inner feeling that you're wrong.. that you're not real, maybe we can call this 'unconditioned intuition', and it is this feeling that creates anxiety when we keep trying to fill that lack. because deep down we know that filling that lack is like filling a black hole.. its impossible. the only solution is to free fall into yourself and accept the groundless nature of self.

[ralis]

Vajraji posits a reductionist mechanical view of the universe i.e, cause and effect. Yet, in the same argument, V maintains there is no apriori cause of all phenomena. Furthermore, Buddhists love to reduce the cause to mind i.e, observer effect. Are Buddhists after some grand view, whereby, an enlightened Buddhist can see and know all?

 

Also it appears as if Buddhists have a problem with existence being undesirable. What a fun bunch!

 

 

ralis

[Sunya]

Vajraji posits a reductionist mechanical view of the universe i.e, cause and effect. Yet, in the same argument, V maintains there is no apriori cause of all phenomena. Furthermore, Buddhists love to reduce the cause to mind i.e, observer effect. Are Buddhists after some grand view, whereby, an enlightened Buddhist can see and know all?

 

Also it appears as if Buddhists have a problem with existence being undesirable. What a fun bunch!

ralis

 

 

cause and effect exist only relatively, ultimately cause and effect is illusory [heart sutra]

 

what is wrong with positing endless regression? why must there be an apriori cause of all phenomena? remember Buddhists don't believe in linear time.

 

a Buddha does indeed know all. I guess I can compare this to the age old determinist argument that if you knew where all the set pieces were in the universe, you could predict the next step. the Buddha in essence knows infinity and the 'set pieces' are not removed from him, recognizing emptiness gives rise to wisdom and knowing, this doesn't sound very 'mechanical' to me.

 

of course Buddhists see existence as undesirable, you should too. existence is dependent on non-existence. the ultimate reality is completely beyond such limitations. to 'exist' is to 'crave', because there is awareness that you're standing on only one half of a coin. it's not existence that is the problem though, its the attachment to such dualistic concepts as existence and non-existence that is the problem, because 'to exist' is simply to be attached to that principle. this is dependent origination

[Ya Mu]

Seth, I sense you know things that you are not saying - good arguments so far!

 

... I embrace a Universe that is infinitely more mysterious then we can ever imagine. Whilst I also seek full awareness it is more of an "alignment of energies" rather than logical comprehension.

 

 

Buddhist dudes: I agree with much of what you say BUT...

Taoist dudes: I agree with much of what you say BUT...

 

So I think I may have posted these before but here are two poems, one Taoist and one Buddhist, and yes the words "Light Warrior" are my own but are true to the interpretation of each of these poems.

 

From the book "A Light Warrior's Guide to High Level energy Healing"

 

Buddhist Poem

 

My Mind is like the Sun.

My Heart is like the Moon.

Inside my body there is a Lotus.

The Lotus reflects the Light of the Sun & Moon.

The Light of the Stars reflects the Light of my Body.

I feel I am a Higher Level Being.

I can move the Universe,

for I am a Warrior of the Light.

 

Taoist Poem

 

The Sun, Moon and Stars are inside my body.

The High Level Energy comes into my body through Bai Hui, Dan Tian,

and through all the pores of my body.

The High Level Energy makes my blood and my Qi strong and powerful, with good and proper circulation.

This High Level Energy is SO POWERFUL,

It makes my Energy Eternal!

 

Ok, now which poem is correct?

 

Intuition and logic. Logic includes the mind which includes the brain; the brain is limited and always will be. Intuition is of the part of us that is eternal. Potentially no limitations. The problems occur because the mind and filters that we create through the "life process"gets in the way. The only way I know to get in touch with the true intuition which is the flow of Tao is to burn through those filters and have the real eternal you take control instead of the conditioned electrical signals present in brain/mind. And the only way I know to really know the real you is to align oneself with Tao and learn to walk in the Wu Wei. And the only way I know of to do that is practice energetics and actually follow the intuitive path. In this view, our minds are our worst enemies. But, I am saying it is the only way I know... not saying it is the only way. Getting hit by lightning works wonders but most do not survive this so I do not recommend it.

 

I am not the Scholar so most of the argument in this thread is beyond my mind.

 

....carry on

[Marblehead]

Hi Michael,

 

Marble, not sure about the point of continuing this since its obvious that whatever i'm saying is just coming out as "!*@!*!)!!@!@)@*!" to you,

 

The reason we continue to do this is that we hope somewhere along the line we can achieve an understanding. And this understanding does not apply to only us, it applies to everyone who reads our posts. We are searching for way that we can agree with each other. We both are hard-headed in our beliefs therefore I think that if we can achieve agreement in any area where we have had disagreement then I think we will have accomplished a great deal.

 

but I would really recommend you that you read some good phenomenological works or meet a good teacher who can point all this out to you since I'm quite terrible at this.

 

Thanks, my friend, but it is far too late for me to get involved in something like this. No, you are not terrible at this, you are doing fine. You just have to find the right words to use so that I can agree with you more often.

 

I'm trying to convey very subtle here, and you keep glossing over and generalizing and assuming.

 

Okay. I confess that I do that. But that is because there are certain concepts that I wish to not discuss either because I do not accept the concept or because I do not understand the concept well enough to discuss it.

 

I'm not saying that when you go to sleep at night the world ceases to be.. it's more like "your" world ceases to be because "your" world is quite different from THE world. and in THE world there are no such thing as trees, people, colors, shapes, time, space, blah, bleem, bloop, and jab. we make that world up.

 

Okay. I agree with this except for the last sentence. If it would have read: "We modify that world according to our needs" I would be in full agreement.

 

what's Nietzsche say about morality? he says the same thing for math and science. it's all man-made. Nature is completely devoid of any distinction so how can math and science be true? Nature is completely devoid of time and space so how can location and time be true? Our whole world depends upon breaking reality up into separate subjects, objects, based upon our interpretation of what they look like through our limited, and defunct, sensory perceptions . and reason? logic? sure they are wonderful but they can only take you so far. the height of reason is the realization of absurdity,contradiction, and chaos. without x=x 'logic' falls apart.

no, not intuition, rather the height of logic. and I don't believe it.. how can I believe it? beliefs are whimsical and based on projection and desire.. nothing to do with truth.

 

No cheating on me. Hehehe. You are reading Nietzsche right now and I'm not. I would have to refresh my memory if we are going to discuss what he said about a particular concept.

 

I don't think it is true that he ever aid that reality is man-made. He did many times say that our delusions are man-made. The universe existed without man for 13.6 billion years.

 

I agree that we humans like to break things down into parts and I think that this is okay as long as we remember to put all the parts back together again.

 

I still like logic and reason. Yes, I understand that it can take us only so far but they serve me very well and I have no intention of throwing them in the trash. Yes, I do accept the concept of intuition. I experience it often. I generally consider it of great value.

 

I can talk about truth. I don't know what that is.

 

it is the conditioned intuition that keeps telling you that you DO exist. and it is this stupid intuition that keeps people from seeking endlessly and solemnly themselves. that stupid intuition that you exist is the prime cause and condition for the state of Lack that everyone and I mean everyone is in. this feeling of lack is projected into the world and the desire is there to BECOME REAL. I am.. but I lack.. I must become! I MUST BE! This is why we suffer, because we believe that we're real; but not quite. if we truly believed it then why are we suffering? because there's also a hidden inner feeling that you're wrong.. that you're not real, maybe we can call this 'unconditioned intuition', and it is this feeling that creates anxiety when we keep trying to fill that lack. because deep down we know that filling that lack is like filling a black hole.. its impossible. the only solution is to free fall into yourself and accept the groundless nature of self.

 

Here I have to disagree with you because I have no fear and I am lacking nothing. I realize that this statement may sound excessively bold but it is the truth.

 

Perhaps my intuition is conditioned but I don't think it is in the most part. I recall one event where I can say absolutely yes but that is the only one as far as I have ever determined.

 

No, I have no fear of being wrong. And that is because it really doesn't matter if I am wrong or not.

 

So the way I have found to deal with the shortcomings that you suggest above is to live my life according to the processes of nature as closely as I can. I realize that this body will one day die. I don't see that as a problem. I ahve no idea what will happen with my personal Chi (spirit) when I die so there is no reason for me to consider the question.

 

And so I lived happily ever after and then the book will read "The End" of Marble's physical existence.

 

Should I worry about what will become of me when I die? I think not so I don't. It's time to dance!

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Hi Ya Mu, Good try.

 

Ok, now which poem is correct?

 

Neither one from this Taoist's point of view.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

cause and effect exist only relatively, ultimately cause and effect is illusory [heart sutra]

 

what is wrong with positing endless regression? why must there be an apriori cause of all phenomena? remember Buddhists don't believe in linear time.

 

a Buddha does indeed know all. I guess I can compare this to the age old determinist argument that if you knew where all the set pieces were in the universe, you could predict the next step. the Buddha in essence knows infinity and the 'set pieces' are not removed from him, recognizing emptiness gives rise to wisdom and knowing, this doesn't sound very 'mechanical' to me.

 

of course Buddhists see existence as undesirable, you should too. existence is dependent on non-existence. the ultimate reality is completely beyond such limitations. to 'exist' is to 'crave', because there is awareness that you're standing on only one half of a coin. it's not existence that is the problem though, its the attachment to such dualistic concepts as existence and non-existence that is the problem, because 'to exist' is simply to be attached to that principle. this is dependent origination

 

A Buddha knows all? Guatama Buddha ate poisoned mushrooms and died. Guess he didn't see that coming.

 

 

ralis

[Ya Mu]

...

Hi Ya Mu, Good try.

Neither one from this Taoist's point of view.

Peace & Love!

 

And I would agree with you!

Both are valid as pathways and can help assist, but the truth is that we live in a dynamic not static universe so the only thing that is "correct" is perception NOW.

[Marblehead]

I am going to derail this thread a little bit with some things I've been thinking over.

 

Yeah, you did go off topic, didn't you? Hehehe.

 

Nice post. I generally agree with what you said except for you use of the word "suffering", but that's my thing. I agree that more often than not those things we struggle with to accomplish will give us a greater sense of understanding and will stay with us longer.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

Does this thread and others like it, denote how the contributors live their lives? What I mean is having fun and not sitting around all day and philosophizing around the angst of life. I am getting ready for another round of guitar playing.

 

ralis

[Marblehead]

Does this thread and others like it, denote how the contributors live their lives? What I mean is having fun and not sitting around all day and philosophizing around the angst of life. I am getting ready for another round of guitar playing.

 

ralis

 

I planted some pansies in my garden today so I will have winter flowers. Does that count?

 

It is near the end of the day for me. Supper then TV to get tired enough to fall asleep.

 

What are we talking about? Oh intuition and logic. Yeah, eating supper and watching TV sounds like the logical thing for me to do very soon.

 

Peace & Love!

[ralis]

I planted some pansies in my garden today so I will have winter flowers. Does that count?

 

It is near the end of the day for me. Supper then TV to get tired enough to fall asleep.

 

What are we talking about? Oh intuition and logic. Yeah, eating supper and watching TV sounds like the logical thing for me to do very soon.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Flowers are fun! I just had the intuitive hit to go for a walk and then play guitar again. It is snowing here in Santa Fe

 

ralis

[Tao99]

Rocks and Space are very real, and due to their intrinsic nature they will have their effect on me, whether I believe it, know it, am aware of it, or not, i.e., regardless of my mind's awareness of it.

 

Rocks versus Space - it's all in their intrinsic nature, regardless of my mental state.

 

Here's a great way to get back in logical/intuitive touch with this reality:

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

If you feel those rock's solidity/existence/intrinsic nature is all in your mind, then put your body where your mind says is an empty illusion with no substance, and fly into those rocks.

 

The external world exists in its own right and you best get real about it, and heed its warnings. Such is the nature of Reality.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Tao99

[Ya Mu]

To derail again...

 

.. I am getting ready for another round of guitar playing.

ralis

 

Yeah! A true way of expression!

But I am waiting on the guitar playing until Sat night's gig - the only trouble is that the folks that hired the band want us to "dress for Halloween" and uh,...glamor rock... ugh ...

Salut to all those "down under"; High Voltage Rock N Roll!

 

...end thread derail

[ralis]

Rocks and Space are very real, and due to their intrinsic nature they will have their effect on me, whether I believe it, know it, am aware of it, or not, i.e., regardless of my mind's awareness of it.

 

Rocks versus Space - it's all in their intrinsic nature, regardless of my mental state.

 

Here's a great way to get back in logical/intuitive touch with this reality:

 

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type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

If you feel those rock's solidity/existence/intrinsic nature is all in your mind, then put your body where your mind says is an empty illusion with no substance, and fly into those rocks.

 

The external world exists in its own right and you best get real about it, and heed its warnings. Such is the nature of Reality.

 

Talk about pushing the envelope with winged suits.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

p.p.s. I think it's time to increase practice, quit reading books and quit posting so much.

 

Cheers to everyone.

 

Yes, this is my thinking recently exactly. I'm going to spend less time here, more quality time with the women I live with and more time outside because it's getting cooler. I'm going to start working out again too!! Plus do my regular Dzogchen practice and Hatha Yoga as well. YAY!!

 

Love ya Serene!!

[Seth Ananda]

yes...go on...

so you're arguing that Buddhists are dogmatic by saying the view of no-view is all encompassing and say "stop accusing me of clinging to subtle attachments!"..Then you go off saying you surrender to a universe as if the universe is a conscious singular being? do you not see the subtle attachment to that dogmatic concept? who is truly dogmatic here Seth?

:lol:Mikaelz, that was the worst response I have seen you give. By quoting me and deliberately leaving out the Key point I was making at the end, and then miss- representing my argument, you make your self worse than the worst politicians or Fox journalists. Stop trying to confuse everybody with your crap, or at least read a post properly before responding.

 

If you read what I was saying, its that my practice is too Surrender as Deeply as possible on every level... and then I was offering any of the Buddhist Fundamentalists here the opportunity to question me on any of the key points -In case I am missing something- without giving you or Vaj's typical response of "E&DO is the only truth, I said so, therefore Its true, and you are deluded till you believe me"

 

How about Talking about the Nuances of experiences rather than Claiming everyone else is deluded?

 

I have my experiences and as a result I tend to Believe things that match them, but its not some Iron clad belief that cant look in new ways, or is not willing to explore angles I have missed.

I am saying I am open to Discussion.

[Vajrahridaya]

:lol:Mikaelz, that was the worst response I have seen you give. By quoting me and deliberately leaving out the Key point I was making at the end, and then miss- representing my argument, you make your self worse than the worst politicians or Fox journalists. Stop trying to confuse everybody with your crap, or at least read a post properly before responding.

 

If you read what I was saying, its that my practice is too Surrender as Deeply as possible on every level... and then I was offering any of the Buddhist Fundamentalists here the opportunity to question me on any of the key points -In case I am missing something- without giving you or Vaj's typical response of "E&DO is the only truth, I said so, therefore Its true, and you are deluded till you believe me"

 

How about Talking about the Nuances of experiences rather than Claiming everyone else is deluded?

 

I have my experiences and as a result I tend to Believe things that match them, but its not some Iron clad belief that cant look in new ways, or is not willing to explore angles I have missed.

I am saying I am open to Discussion.

 

If you don't yet see how interdependent co-arising applies to every aspect of your being, cellularly, experientially, to everything, absolutely everything, then you are still holding it at a distance and it hasn't been realized on an intuitive level yet.

 

Which might only happen through transmission from a Buddha lineage.

 

According to the Buddha, it is the only way to liberation, all others fall short. Nagarjuna said the same thing. They deeply, and experientially understood your point of view as well.

 

So, they weren't lying.

 

Take care.

[rebelrebel]

Vajra, I've finally figured it out. I know where you've gone wrong. You're still mistaking the finger for the moon.

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajra, I've finally figured it out. I know where you've gone wrong. You're still mistaking the finger for the moon.

 

LOL! No, the finger is the moon. But, where you guys are getting it wrong, is thinking that pratityasamutpada is merely a conceptual formulation. It is not like other teachings, and you won't get that until you get that. Interdependent origination is not a formula, it's in fact how all formulas manifest and how you have come up with the choice to speak your words.

 

You think you are in control, making choices, but you don't realize that you are out of control, conditioned, and the cause to the effect of your opinion is an endless chain of not seeing emptiness directly, which is not the same as seeing a "one" behind all things.

 

It's much subtler than that.

 

So no... I have not gone wrong.

 

p.s. When it is said in Buddhism to go beyond the finger, the Buddhas are talking about going beyond the teaching as being a conceptual formula. It must become an intuition, then you see the moon that the formula of dependent origination/emptiness is pointing to.

 

Take care.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Vajrahridaya