Intuition and Logic.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It seems that few prople are willing to suspend ALL beliefs.. to have direct experience. I hear and see so many references to Buddha, Tao, this master and that.. i come here not as a 'Taoist', but as one to whom Taoism has deep resonance.. i find resonance in elements of many belief systems, but none represent 'Truth'.. Truth cannot be revealed through a system, the error is already manifest.. but, a system can enhance the likelihood that one might experience truth, like pieces of the puzzle.. It's very much like putting a jigsaw puzzle together, the Whole undivided picture is right there, the model you refer to while searching for pieces of the puzzle.. finally, the puzzle is complete, but you still see the separate pieces, but now they are linked in Unity, the picture is discernable.. but, the Whole undivided picture was there all-along, you kept referring to it.. i hope you see my meaning..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Of course! That person went straight to a Satyaloka.

 

Pure land, in English/Buddhist parlance.

Well, you can only please some of them some of the time and all of them none of the time.

I'd like to say... from Swami Muktananda...

 

Which is funny considering what most people think about him due to rumors and projection.

 

"A true disciple can gain liberation from a false Guru who speaks true words."

 

Obviously giving the power to the disciple to attain liberation for them self.

 

As the Buddha said, "Be a lamp unto yourself."

 

I will generally acknowledge the wisdom in words from any source.

 

I think I have lived according to Buddha's words above.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

When you surrender ...

 

I will never surrender as long as I still have ammunition.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

 

Emptiness is fullness!

 

Darn. I was going to comment on Michael's post above and I read this. I now have nothing to say.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Hi Vajrahridaya and TheSongsofDistantEarth,

 

I have enjoyed the short discussion y'all had to the subject of 'emptiness and fullness'.

 

I have nothing of value to add at the moment.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

It seems that few prople are willing to suspend ALL beliefs.. to have direct experience. I hear and see so many references to Buddha, Tao, this master and that.. i come here not as a 'Taoist', but as one to whom Taoism has deep resonance.. i find resonance in elements of many belief systems, but none represent 'Truth'.. Truth cannot be revealed through a system, the error is already manifest.. but, a system can enhance the likelihood that one might experience truth, like pieces of the puzzle.. It's very much like putting a jigsaw puzzle together, the Whole undivided picture is right there, the model you refer to while searching for pieces of the puzzle.. finally, the puzzle is complete, but you still see the separate pieces, but now they are linked in Unity, the picture is discernable.. but, the Whole undivided picture was there all-along, you kept referring to it.. i hope you see my meaning..

 

Be well..

 

Nice analogy. Yep. The 'big picture' is always ever-present. But life leads us hither and tither and oftentimes we cannot see the big picture because of the position we are in at various moments in time.

 

I was fortunate in a way in that I had my experiences before I acquired my beliefs so basically I selected my beliefs according to how well they agreed with the experiences I had had in life. I could sit back and consider a concept and say, yes, I accept this because on the 23rd of June, 1964 I had that experience that is in total agreement with this concept.

 

Now, sure, things change, but as long as a concept I hold to (I had to use that term, hehehe) remains true or has not been tested and proven wrong, I see no reason to dig at the roots.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Buddhism is not about suffering? What the hell kind of buddhism have you been studying? I don't know about you but I've been studying the buddhism whose founder said "I teach one thing and one thing only: the end of suffering." Yes ok not every aspect of it is about suffering but it is pretty damn important and overcoming it is in fact the goal of the entire practice. Well omniscience too I guess. Compassion comes when one has abandoned the causes of suffering.

Well if you have never studied his teachings yourself, your criticisms are meaningless. period. You are operating completely on hearsay. You consistently ignore the understandings of his that I have laid out in this thread and the fact that they directly coincide with buddhist understandings but are just phrased in different ways.

 

And again I ask you, as you have still not answered this, what is buddhahood if not ending suffering?

 

 

 

 

 

Hey RR thank you for highlighting the comment i made regarding Buddhism being MORE than a path that emphasizes ONLY suffering. My comment was pretty clear btw, and so was yours. You said the Buddha said that He taught only one thing - The way OUT OF SUFFERING. He did not say that He taught a way INTO UNDERSTANDING SUFFERING. Hence i said the emphasis ought to be on the way out of suffering thru the cultivation of loving kindness, compassion and equanimity, and then you asked me 'What the hell kind of Buddhism have you been studying?'

 

I dont know, RR - you tell me.

 

Anyway, you are partly right. In some ways I never studied Buddhism... sometimes it feels like Buddhism is studying who *me* is.

 

Bee good.

Edited November 1, 2009 by CowTao

[Sunya]

the teachings of Shakyamuni were indeed about suffering and liberation, the goal being Arhat. but that s not the highest goal, and indeed it is known by Theravadins that Buddhahood is a vastly different goal than Arhat. Enlightenment is not the same as liberation. A Buddha is like a really powerful super hero. I know it sounds cheesy. and I apologize for my lack of eloquence in metaphors but in essence, that's what a Buddha is. Buddhahood = total omniscience, and having the power to help anyone by manifesting in whatever form is best. An Arhat no longer suffers but still has defilements, does not have omniscience, and does not have the means to help other beings.

 

the Rainbow body is the highest goal of Dzogchen, now technically someone who rests in Rigpa constantly does not suffer at all, and thus is liberated... but still practices to attain Rainbow Body because this is practically having infinite power of manifestation to help all beings.

 

V- correct me if i'm wrong

Edited November 1, 2009 by mikaelz

[Marblehead]

Okay. Please excuse me while I get back to topic for a moment.

 

I think that this is a perfect example of sound logic:

 

 

 

There were two nuns..

 

One of them was known as Sister Mathematical (SM),

 

and the other one was known as Sister Logical (SL) .

 

It is getting dark and they are still far away from the convent.

 

SM: Have you noticed that a man has been following us for

the past thirty-eight and a half minutes? I wonder what he wants.

 

SL: It's logical. He wants to rape us.

 

SM: Oh, no! At this rate he will reach us in 15 minutes

at the most! What can we do?

 

SL: The only logical thing to do of course is to walk faster.

 

SM: It's not working.

 

SL: Of course it's not working. The man did the only

logical thing. He started to walk faster, too.

 

SM: So, what shall we do? At this rate he will reach us in one minute.

 

SL: The only logical thing we can do is split. You go that way and I'll go this way. He cannot follow us both.

 

So the man decided to follow Sister Logical.

 

Sister Mathematical arrives at the convent and is

worried about what has happened to Sister Logical.

 

Then Sister Logicalarrives.

 

SM: Sister Logical! Thank God you are here!

Tell me what happened!

 

SL: The only logical thing happened. The man couldn't follow us both, so he followed me

 

SM: Yes, yes! But what happened then?

 

SL: The only logical thing happened. I started to run

as fast as I could and he started to run as fast as he could.

 

SM: And?

 

SL : The only logical thing happened. He reached me.

 

SM : Oh, dear! What did you do?

 

SL : The only logical thing to do. I lifted my dress up.

 

SM : Oh, Sister! What did the man do?

 

SL: The only logical thing to do. He pulled down his pants.

 

SM: Oh, no! What happened then?

 

SL : Isn't it logical, Sister? A nun with her dress up can run faster than a man with his pants down.

 

And for those of you who thought it would be dirty,

 

Say two Hail Marys!

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"It is, after death.. as it was, before birth".. in between, we exist in a 'temporary' physical reality, but.. a reality, regardless. So, with the observably tangible reality requesting full interaction, why do so many people grasp at the 'intangible' mind-scapes? The process of deducing that the 'temporary' physical reality is not 'real' is supported only by purely subjective 'if/then' conditional statements, and second-hand testimony of unverifiable phenomena..

 

What is also observable, is that 'Deeds' are the signature of one's actual beliefs.. i find very few 'believers' that truly 'walk the walk', very few.. while praising the 'true existence', non-physical, i find almost every 'sane' being eager to preserve the physical experience, the 'illusion' as some refer to it.. it seems like a fundamental contradiction..

 

Be well..

[goldisheavy]

So, with the observably tangible reality requesting full interaction, why do so many people grasp at the 'intangible' mind-scapes?

 

It's because we see first-hand how important the contents of the mind are. You're using a computer to say this. The computer is product of mind. That's just one example.

 

The process of deducing that the 'temporary' physical reality is not 'real' is supported only by purely subjective 'if/then' conditional statements, and second-hand testimony of unverifiable phenomena..

 

Ah, but the very same flimsy evidence supports the thesis that what you call "physical reality" is real. It's not fair to look critically at one side of the equation but then look favorably on another. Look equally critically at both, or look equally favorably at both, and see what happens.

 

What is also observable, is that 'Deeds' are the signature of one's actual beliefs.. i find very few 'believers' that truly 'walk the walk',

 

It's not easy to break the stereotypes. Expectations of cultures, the cultural norms, those are not trivial to ignore or to manipulate.

 

i find almost every 'sane' being eager to preserve the physical experience, the 'illusion' as some refer to it.. it seems like a fundamental contradiction..

 

Be well..

 

Most people want to preserve their dream personality while in the dream too. If you're dreaming that you're being chased by a monster, don't you run away in the dream? People fear the dissolution of what it is they believe they are, and this "what it is they believe they are" does not have to be physical, and I will say, it's not physical.

 

So this preservation instinct has nothing to do with physicality. It's like a painter who wouldn't enjoy another painter walking up to her favorite painting and splashing some paint on it. The fear isn't physical. It's a fear of losing identity.

[mat black]

.............we meditate to bring the light of awareness into the sub- and un-conscious aspects of our being to make everything fully conscious. When we become aware of the components of something, we are able to manifest a language around these components to name them. In the world that language is largely "Sanskrit" which has single words that take whole paragraphs in English to explain. Chinese might have some similar completely spiritual languages in it's history as well. Though Sanskrit also can be applied in a practical sense as well, not just mystical. Much like of course Pali which is derived from Sanskrit.

As it is said, "reverse the light and illiume within"

Amitabha.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I will never surrender as long as I still have ammunition.

 

 

Ooook, Dirty Harry!

 

 

 

Greetings..

 

"It is, after death.. as it was, before birth".. in between, we exist in a 'temporary' physical reality, but.. a reality, regardless. So, with the observably tangible reality requesting full interaction, why do so many people grasp at the 'intangible' mind-scapes? The process of deducing that the 'temporary' physical reality is not 'real' is supported only by purely subjective 'if/then' conditional statements, and second-hand testimony of unverifiable phenomena..

 

First hand for me.

 

But yes... meditation in the cave but not in the market is not true meditation.

 

integrate, integrate, integrate...

 

 

the teachings of Shakyamuni were indeed about suffering and liberation, the goal being Arhat. but that s not the highest goal, and indeed it is known by Theravadins that Buddhahood is a vastly different goal than Arhat. Enlightenment is not the same as liberation. A Buddha is like a really powerful super hero. I know it sounds cheesy. and I apologize for my lack of eloquence in metaphors but in essence, that's what a Buddha is. Buddhahood = total omniscience, and having the power to help anyone by manifesting in whatever form is best. An Arhat no longer suffers but still has defilements, does not have omniscience, and does not have the means to help other beings.

 

the Rainbow body is the highest goal of Dzogchen, now technically someone who rests in Rigpa constantly does not suffer at all, and thus is liberated... but still practices to attain Rainbow Body because this is practically having infinite power of manifestation to help all beings.

 

V- correct me if i'm wrong

 

Spot on Buddhy.

 

As it is said, "reverse the light and illiume within"

Amitabha.

 

Om Namo Amitabha!!

Buddha of Infinite Light!

[thuscomeone]

the teachings of Shakyamuni were indeed about suffering and liberation, the goal being Arhat. but that s not the highest goal, and indeed it is known by Theravadins that Buddhahood is a vastly different goal than Arhat. Enlightenment is not the same as liberation. A Buddha is like a really powerful super hero. I know it sounds cheesy. and I apologize for my lack of eloquence in metaphors but in essence, that's what a Buddha is. Buddhahood = total omniscience, and having the power to help anyone by manifesting in whatever form is best. An Arhat no longer suffers but still has defilements, does not have omniscience, and does not have the means to help other beings.

 

the Rainbow body is the highest goal of Dzogchen, now technically someone who rests in Rigpa constantly does not suffer at all, and thus is liberated... but still practices to attain Rainbow Body because this is practically having infinite power of manifestation to help all beings.

 

V- correct me if i'm wrong

Isn't rainbow body just what happens when one recognizes the clear light at death? Of course, there is also rainbow body that can be attained during life, I know that. What are the practices to attain rainbow body in life other than just resting stably and consistently in true nature?

 

Also, this may be a big question and kind of out of the blue, but what is rigpa and how is it the same or different from emptiness?

[goldisheavy]

Isn't rainbow body just what happens when one recognizes the clear light at death? Of course, there is also rainbow body that can be attained during life, I know that.

 

Do you know or have you merely heard? There is a difference.

 

What are the practices to attain rainbow body in life other than just resting stably and consistently in true nature?

 

If you realize what rainbow body is, the practices should be obvious. Rainbow body is a body of reality that's been made flexible. Without this flexibility, you could say that all sentient beings have a rainbow body. What inhibits flexibility in your body of reality? Isn't it obvious? What has force to structure your perceived reality? Mind. What has force to structure mind? Beliefs.

[thuscomeone]

Do you know or have you merely heard? There is a difference.

If you realize what rainbow body is, the practices should be obvious. Rainbow body is a body of reality that's been made flexible. Without this flexibility, you could say that all sentient beings have a rainbow body. What inhibits flexibility in your body of reality? Isn't it obvious? What has force to structure your perceived reality? Mind. What has force to structure mind? Beliefs.

My knowledge is according to what I have been told about rainbow body. It is knowledge of popular understanding of rainbow body not direct experiential knowledge.

Edited November 2, 2009 by thuscomeone

[Vajrahridaya]

Isn't rainbow body just what happens when one recognizes the clear light at death? Of course, there is also rainbow body that can be attained during life, I know that. What are the practices to attain rainbow body in life other than just resting stably and consistently in true nature?

 

Also, this may be a big question and kind of out of the blue, but what is rigpa and how is it the same or different from emptiness?

 

Rigpa is the awareness of emptiness, it goes first from personal, to universal, child rigpa, to mother rigpa sort of speak.

 

If you want to know more... I mean lots more. Read, "Crystal and the Way of Light" link to Amazon.com by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, both his main teachers, his Uncle and his root Guru attained the Rainbow body. He gives practices that lead to this realization. You would need transmission from him to go any further as I am not authorized to really share such information and Rinpoche say's not to talk about Dzogchen too much on an open forum as it's a very special and sacred teaching that should be given between a lineage master and a truly honest seeker, not just a whole bunch of internet junkies... LOL! I'm not talking about you... well, mostly me really... . No, he is my root Guru and I can only follow his advice as best as I can.

 

But, there is a book that does go into various detailed information that is generally considered... "classified" and it's called... "Heart drops of Dharmakaya" link to Amazon.com

 

You might actually be able to find both of these books at your local Barnes and Nobles. I found Crystal and the Way of Light that way and other books by ChNNR.

 

All the best in your search!!

[goldisheavy]

My knowledge is according to what I have been told about rainbow body. It is knowledge of popular understanding of rainbow body not direct experiential knowledge.

 

OK, so you have heard. This is fine. Just be aware of what is hearsay and what is not. We necessarily take all kinds of things without demanding proof, and normally it doesn't matter. But if you're a student of life, it begins to matter.

[thuscomeone]

OK, so you have heard. This is fine. Just be aware of what is hearsay and what is not. We necessarily take all kinds of things without demanding proof, and normally it doesn't matter. But if you're a student of life, it begins to matter.

Oh you're completely right. I don't believe anything to be true before rigorous (and I mean rigorous) examination of it. It is easy to be swayed into believing something if it is coming from somebody with a title that entails they have some sort of authority - master, lama, "father"...

[goldisheavy]

Oh you're completely right. I don't believe anything to be true before rigorous (and I mean rigorous) examination of it. It is easy to be swayed into believing something if it is coming from somebody with a title that entails they have some sort of authority - master, lama, "father"...

 

Oh yea... good catch there with "father".

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh you're completely right. I don't believe anything to be true before rigorous (and I mean rigorous) examination of it. It is easy to be swayed into believing something if it is coming from somebody with a title that entails they have some sort of authority - master, lama, "father"...

 

Very good, but also doubt your doubts... rigorously look into their causes and conditions.

[goldisheavy]

Very good, but also doubt your doubts... rigorously look into their causes and conditions.

 

This one is great to remember too.

[C T]

the teachings of Shakyamuni were indeed about suffering and liberation, the goal being Arhat. but that s not the highest goal, and indeed it is known by Theravadins that Buddhahood is a vastly different goal than Arhat. Enlightenment is not the same as liberation. A Buddha is like a really powerful super hero. I know it sounds cheesy. and I apologize for my lack of eloquence in metaphors but in essence, that's what a Buddha is. Buddhahood = total omniscience, and having the power to help anyone by manifesting in whatever form is best. An Arhat no longer suffers but still has defilements, does not have omniscience, and does not have the means to help other beings.

 

the Rainbow body is the highest goal of Dzogchen, now technically someone who rests in Rigpa constantly does not suffer at all, and thus is liberated... but still practices to attain Rainbow Body because this is practically having infinite power of manifestation to help all beings.

 

V- correct me if i'm wrong

There is no highest goal in the practice of Dzogchen, just like there is no ceiling to realization.

 

The deeper practices of Mahamudra, Madhyamika and Dzogchen denounces "grasping" at any concepts and *signs*. If there were anything to be held on to, no matter how subtle, that is still 'form'. Hence there is no 'highest' attainment. This is mind-play. That is why the Buddha is called One Who Is Neither Coming nor Going, and the reason He is thus known is because He has shown the way to transcendent insight, the clear seeing of the illusion of opposing realities.

 

It is not helpful to think there is any ultimate realization. This would be like one who is unwilling to dislodge the raft from one's back after crossing the river, always on the lookout for the next bigger river where the raft could come in useful again. The practice of these paths negates such a mentality.

 

In the words of one writer, "Illumination is the discovery of the reality existing beneath appearances, and s/he who is enlightened will be aware of the place which s/he, in fact, occupies in this reality. That suffices; s/he will cease to be the dupe of a mirage - ceasing to create it, the chains will have been broken, and there is liberation".

Edited November 2, 2009 by CowTao

[Vajrahridaya]

[C T]