CHI...MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUTH,SIZE OR STRENGTH?

[enouch]

Hi! Finished reading BK Franzis book dealing with internal arts.In it he quotes Wang Shu Jinn saying ''It all comes down to how much chi you have'' Another master Liu Hung Chieh also told him ''chi is more is more important than youth,size, and strength'' Ma Shr Ching told Liu, who told Bruce, Tung[founder of modern bagua] would meditate everday for hours and the basis of his martial power was attributed as much to his meditation pratices[pure taoist] as too physical technique.Tung was renown for leaping up and hanging by ceiling beams.Jumping as high as twenty feet by some accounts.It is told Tung taught ching gung to one person who was poor because he helped Tung when he was perfercting the skills in the moutains.This same individual showed up later in beijing as a cat burgular jumping over walls/fences.When Tung found out he ordered him out of town or he would kill him.

 

This experience soured him on teaching ching gung to anybody.My central question is how would community members interpret the statement''chi ismore important than youth,size or strength'' Or ''it all comes down to how much chi you have''Vortex, mentioned old ladies with chi development looking old but having vitality.

Edited October 29, 2009 by enouch

[goldisheavy]

Hi! Finished reading BK Franzis book dealing with internal arts.In it he quotes Wang Shu Jinn saying ''It all comes down to how much chi you have'' Another master Liu Hung Chieh also told him ''chi is more is more important than youth,size, and strength'' Ma Shr Ching told Liu, who told Bruce, Tung[founder of modern bagua] would meditate everday for hours and the basis of his martial power was attributed as much to his meditation pratices[pure taoist] as too physical technique.Tung was renown for leaping up and hanging by ceiling beams.Jumping as high as twenty feet by some accounts.It is told Tung taught ching gung to one person who was poor because he helped Tung when he was perfercting the skills in the moutains.This same individual showed up later in beijing as a cat burgular jumping over walls/fences.When Tung found out he ordered him out of town or he would kill him.

 

This experience soured him on teaching ching gung to anybody.My central question is how would community members interpret the statement''chi ismore important than youth,size or strength'' Or ''it all comes down to how much chi you have''Vortex, mentioned old ladies with chi development looking old but having vitality.

 

It will depend on your belief system. If you don't believe in chi, obviously accumulating chi is nonsense and then it all comes down to physical strength, youth and all that.

 

This master spent so much time in meditation. Clearly he believed in something different than say your average materialist. His actions are consistent with his beliefs, which means his beliefs are sincere. So for a man like that, his statement is totally correct. For him it is all about chi.

 

It's hard to talk about this because people like to generalize everything into one common reality and that's too constraining, in my opinion. So that's why I think that statements like this can be true or false depending on conditions and not "only true" or "only false".

 

The real question is this: Do you want martial prowess to only depend on chi? Do you want it? That's the real question. Not "how it is" but "what do you want to be true". Now, some people think that what you want to be true is irrelevant and that there is only one objective truth. I beg to differ. I think what you want to be true is more important than any idea of any objective truth.

[r.w.smith]

Hi enouch,

 

You could probably say that internal practice keeps the body agile & healthy to begin with. So this in a small way is retaining part of ones youth. Apart from staying young you may even develop mysterious skills with internal practice. Most forms of fitness & aerobics burn up energy,on the other hand Qigong etc builds and conserves energy. Pretty hard to compete with that in my opinion

 

Regards,

Edited October 29, 2009 by r.w.smith

[gendao]

Tung[founder of modern bagua] would meditate everday for hours and the basis of his martial power was attributed as much to his meditation pratices[pure taoist] as too physical technique.Tung was renown for leaping up and hanging by ceiling beams.Jumping as high as twenty feet by some accounts.

 

Vortex, mentioned old ladies with chi development looking old but having vitality.

I agree, however ONLY after a certain point (many hundreds of hours or more of meditation). Which very few will probably ever reach. However, if they do, the upside is far beyond any norms reachable by purely physical means.

 

Perhaps something like this:

Edited October 29, 2009 by vortex

[lino]

Hi! Finished reading BK Franzis book dealing with internal arts.In it he quotes Wang Shu Jinn saying ''It all comes down to how much chi you have'' Another master Liu Hung Chieh also told him ''chi is more is more important than youth,size, and strength'' Ma Shr Ching told Liu, who told Bruce, Tung[founder of modern bagua] would meditate everday for hours and the basis of his martial power was attributed as much to his meditation pratices[pure taoist] as too physical technique.Tung was renown for leaping up and hanging by ceiling beams.Jumping as high as twenty feet by some accounts.It is told Tung taught ching gung to one person who was poor because he helped Tung when he was perfercting the skills in the moutains.This same individual showed up later in beijing as a cat burgular jumping over walls/fences.When Tung found out he ordered him out of town or he would kill him.

 

This experience soured him on teaching ching gung to anybody.My central question is how would community members interpret the statement''chi ismore important than youth,size or strength'' Or ''it all comes down to how much chi you have''Vortex, mentioned old ladies with chi development looking old but having vitality.

 

This stuff isn't realistic for the average person. That kind of stuff happens to the "one in a billion" kind of person.

Better to spend the hours in the gym.

[z00se]

This stuff isn't realistic for the average person. That kind of stuff happens to the "one in a billion" kind of person.

Better to spend the hours in the gym.

 

I agree. And even the 1 in a billion "CHI EXPERT" most likely would still get pounded by tyson. You need more than an iron shirt to stop his punches, and if you use tai chi and use his power against him, it's like trying to transform a lightening bolt when you've only ever practiced with a 9v battery

[宁]

I agree, however ONLY after a certain point (many hundreds of hours or more of meditation). Which very few will probably ever reach. However, if they do, the upside is far beyond any norms reachable by purely physical means.

 

Perhaps something like this:

 

Good stuff!

It takes courage to believe in that, then training.

 

But to some, it's easier to be 'realistic' (as in pessimistic, hehe) - this way they save alot of effort...

[Vajrasattva]

Yes more CHI the better.

CULTIVATE CHI like no tomorrow. 24/7

But also Learn to Fight.

 

Learn Silat or Kuntau or Real Tai chi , Bagua, or Xing Yi or Wing Chun or Filipino MA or Muay Thai.

 

 

 

The CHI will make things easier and with less effort.

 

Peace

 

S

Edited October 29, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[Old Man Contradiction]

training both ways is the best way IMO.

 

Serious hardcore physical muscular training will not only teach your body to work as a single unit(which is essential to the internal martial arts), but the physical mass gained will give you the advantage over an opponent. Follow this with yichuan drills, and/or boxing drills, and then your taiji/hsing-i/bagua form. You will be much, much better than if you only practice the form and qigong.

[z00se]

training both ways is the best way IMO.

 

 

Yes MO too! The oldskool monks always got WOOPED by invaders. Thats why they were taught Kung Fu. You might be able to make yourself warm by a fireball in ur mind, you might be able to burn some paper with ur hand, but u ain't gunna ward off any lions with an imaginary chi ball.

 

The masai tribe can kill a lion with one spear stab.

 

Go Figure....

[enouch]

Yes MO too! The oldskool monks always got WOOPED by invaders. Thats why they were taught Kung Fu. You might be able to make yourself warm by a fireball in ur mind, you might be able to burn some paper with ur hand, but u ain't gunna ward off any lions with an imaginary chi ball.

 

The masai tribe can kill a lion with one spear stab.

 

Go Figure....

 

 

 

Guys, I also believe in hardcore training in fact I just finished running three miles,one with a twenty pound weight vest and ankle weights.

The other two with ankle weights.I was raised on jeet kune do[yes I've studied other arts] and the founder emphasized conditioning above all else.It's just that I've noticed a difference even after running when assuming the universal post position helps balance me.Ma Ching told Lieu, Tung would meditate with close eyes and correct ma's moves.Another guy is mentioned-Ma wai Chi-ten day delay Ma! He was known for strikes that would cause latent damage.People would usually die ten days later,this was done to keep him out of trouble with authorities.Wang shu Jin sent a ball of energy into Bruce's back which took him three or four months to clear out-accupunture/bodywork.As far as monks setting things[paper] on fire,Chang can reportedly kill someone from ten yards away.Here are some shaolin training clips-somewhat motivational!! Oh! Does anyone know a technique for strengthening the fingers to the point of ripping off the flesh! A fellow taobum member mentioned his experience with a guy who could rip horse flesh off! Right now I'm using a ten pound weight plate and squeezing it.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRBrkVM9EWw

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OV1BhrH6h4...feature=related

Edited October 29, 2009 by enouch

[mantis]

Running with weighted vests/ankle weights is terrible for your joints but if it makes you feel like Bruce Lee it's worth it I guess?

[Zenshiite]

Yes MO too! The oldskool monks always got WOOPED by invaders. Thats why they were taught Kung Fu. You might be able to make yourself warm by a fireball in ur mind, you might be able to burn some paper with ur hand, but u ain't gunna ward off any lions with an imaginary chi ball.

 

The masai tribe can kill a lion with one spear stab.

 

Go Figure....

 

It's my understanding that Shaolin monks pre-gungfu and even Taoist monks pre-gungfu weren't necessarily training in martial qigong in the first place. It would be no wonder they were wooped by bandits raiding the temples. However, martial qigong is going to play a hugely important role in gungfu and that's what the quote is relevant for. It's why an old man can still fight after his physical body has declined.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Suppose there are two Porsches sitting side by side.. in one i put some old 83 octane cheapo gas, and in the other.. i put fresh 101 octane racing fuel.. unattended Qi is like the old 87 octane, and refined Qi is like the 101 octane.. which Porsche wins?

 

Now, suppose i put a new 911 Turbo Carrera next to a 1963 VW Bug.. then i put the 101 octane racing fuel in both.. which one wins?

 

Maintain the body (cars) well.. refine the fuel (Qi).. and the only variable is the 'driver'..

 

Balance.. Be well..

[lino]

Guys, I also believe in hardcore training in fact I just finished running three miles,one with a twenty pound weight vest and ankle weights.

The other two with ankle weights.I was raised on jeet kune do[yes I've studied other arts] and the founder emphasized conditioning above all else.It's just that I've noticed a difference even after running when assuming the universal post position helps balance me.Ma Ching told Lieu, Tung would meditate with close eyes and correct ma's moves.Another guy is mentioned-Ma wai Chi-ten day delay Ma! He was known for strikes that would cause latent damage.People would usually die ten days later,this was done to keep him out of trouble with authorities.Wang shu Jin sent a ball of energy into Bruce's back which took him three or four months to clear out-accupunture/bodywork.As far as monks setting things[paper] on fire,Chang can reportedly kill someone from ten yards away.Here are some shaolin training clips-somewhat motivational!! Oh! Does anyone know a technique for strengthening the fingers to the point of ripping off the flesh! A fellow taobum member mentioned his experience with a guy who could rip horse flesh off! Right now I'm using a ten pound weight plate and squeezing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRBrkVM9EWw

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OV1BhrH6h4...feature=related

 

I think the vest is good but I don't think the ankle weights are all that great for running three miles

[sinno]

I agree. And even the 1 in a billion "CHI EXPERT" most likely would still get pounded by tyson. You need more than an iron shirt to stop his punches, and if you use tai chi and use his power against him, it's like trying to transform a lightening bolt when you've only ever practiced with a 9v battery

 

nothing a shot to the groin cant fix!

 

[Vajrasattva]

A real System will have conditioning & Internal/External training built in it.

[Old Man Contradiction]

A real System will have conditioning & Internal/External training built in it.

 

The synergy between conditioning and INT/EXT training is awesome.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Ya Mu]

... but u ain't gunna ward off any lions with an imaginary chi ball.

 

Well, actually the old Taoist travelers that would traverse China had a technique of using Qi to scare off wild animals. I was taught this technique and it works well ... but don't wish to have to test it out against lions. I was also taught the Taoist qigong running technique ... but don't wish to run across China either.

But of course an imaginary qi ball wouldn't do anything at all.

 

From the perspective of MA then physical conditioning is just as important. From the perspective of awareness then the body is used for a small, small, small snap of the fingers period of time whereas energy development that addresses the energy body carries through for eternity.

[alexandrov]

whereas energy development that addresses the energy body carries through for eternity.

 

could it not be said that eventually ones "energy body" will also degrade?

[Ya Mu]

could it not be said that eventually ones "energy body" will also degrade?

 

Don't think so.

[sabretooth]

I used to have a tai chi instructor who said he thought that Tyson was trained in internal force.

Not just because of his punching power but his ability to take shot's off guy's that wieghed 3 stone more than

him.

 

 

 

 

 

sabretooth.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I used to have a tai chi instructor who said he thought that Tyson was trained in internal force.

Not just because of his punching power but his ability to take shot's off guy's that wieghed 3 stone more than

him.

sabretooth.

 

Good boxers are more "internal" than a lot of taiji practicioners. Tai Chi's popularity as led it really far from it's origin as centrally internal. Wang Xiangzhai had once said that even western european boxing is leaps ahead of China's average boxer.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[gendao]

Yes MO too! The oldskool monks always got WOOPED by invaders. Thats why they were taught Kung Fu. You might be able to make yourself warm by a fireball in ur mind, you might be able to burn some paper with ur hand, but u ain't gunna ward off any lions with an imaginary chi ball.

Hadn't heard that. What invaders?

 

I mean, it's not like they "should" have known martial arts, anyways. They were monks secluding themselves from society to seek spiritual advancement, for gawdsakes. So that would be like telling a bunch of peaceful nuns in a convent that they need to learn MMA.

 

Anyhow, martial arts is still really cool, but nearly useless today. The chances of anyone ever having to really use it in a real life situation are just slim to none now. That's essentially why I stopped practicing, because it seemed to be increasing investment for diminishing returns. I still love the sheer art of it, but in reality - our greater "enemies" now are primarily health-related (aging, sickness, illness, etc). So, qigong for health and spiritual growth are where I prefer to put my focus on now.

Edited October 30, 2009 by vortex

[Vajrasattva]

Well, actually the old Taoist travelers that would traverse China had a technique of using Qi to scare off wild animals. I was taught this technique and it works well ... but don't wish to have to test it out against lions. I was also taught the Taoist qigong running technique ... but don't wish to run across China either.

But of course an imaginary qi ball wouldn't do anything at all.

 

From the perspective of MA then physical conditioning is just as important. From the perspective of awareness then the body is used for a small, small, small snap of the fingers period of time whereas energy development that addresses the energy body carries through for eternity.

 

 

yes i have warded off big dogs that tried to attack my 2 year old.

 

it only doesnt work for folks with no chi...

 

Running with weighted vests/ankle weights is terrible for your joints but if it makes you feel like Bruce Lee it's worth it I guess?

 

 

Not good idea for sure ankle weights and running is asking for knee problems