Magic?

[Spirit Ape]

What do you consider a system of Magik/witch craft?

 

Im looking for an authentic magic system, since I see Qi Kung and meditation (inner alchemy) magic I like to see any european type magic or energy work that truly works. The Ancient Egyptian mystery schools talk of it so what is magic in your understanding?

 

I see Kaballah is like magic art or am I wrong, chaos magic, etc?

 

Anyone got any magic systems that differ from high level chi kung and inner alchemy of asian system?\

 

Ape

[Mal]

Hi G, good to see you around.

 

Check out the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a good overview of western ceremonial systems. The lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram is perhaps the "classic" ritual and would give you an idea of what its all about. Grimoires like the Key of Solomon are pretty interesting too I never got into the A∴A∴ or O.T.O. stuff to much but it's also interesting.

 

After doing psychology at uni tried to learnt a lot of the western systems. They were very usefull to me at the time but personally I found it hard to separate and understand what was "method" and what was ceremonial, it can get rather confusing. I also tried Wiccan rituals and Franz Bardon methods. All are good paths capable of bringing about change within yourself.

 

Eventually I moved on to Buddhist meditation, then Taoism and Chi Kungs.

 

KAP is my current path for that sort of stuff.

[Kali Yuga]

Magic.

 

 

A lot of books nowadays which people classify as psychology nowadays can also be forms of magic.

 

The first, very first thing, which got me started on this kind of path was a book called The Silva Mind Control Method. It was my first practice introducing me into meditation but the concept itself and the practice was surprisingly advanced. Back in those days it took real effort for me to go into meditation. In fact I believe it was Silva who coined the terms Alpha Beta and Theta (the states of brain waves that characterize the meditative state of mind, the awake state of mind, and the stages of deep sleep).

 

In the book The Silva Mind Control Method there it illustrates a method there which you use your mind to manifest a thing into your future. In the book it states that you should be aware of your first few "rituals", because these have a great tendency to manifest. Of course, at first I doubted it but my very first practice resulted in a humongous, coincidental manifestation coming in the form of me hooking up with a girl I had a huge crush on. I was a shy chump back then so something like that happening had huge meaning. But you see afterward I thought about it, and all the coincidences piled up so perfectly on top of each other that I could not conclude that I just got lucky. It was completely ridiculous. It usually is that way when you start with it because when you turn to magic often its because of some deep longing on some level and the results can be shocking.

 

Anyway, Mal has a good reference because the Hermetic Dawn is where the modern day tradition of magic started, and most occult Rosicrucian organizations are almost always patterned after it. But what Mal also states that sometimes ceremony and method overlap, is true. The Silva Method has no trappings of the sort, just a practice and anything ceremonial you add is just your own.

 

I wouldn't recommend Kaballah because it can get incredibly complex for someone who is new to it and it is more of a system of correspondences than an actual practice of magic. Kaballah is a system of analogy and helps one to understand the layers that make up what we term, existence. But like it is said, the Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao.

 

But enough said. My advice is that you go out and explore the different traditions like Rosicrucianism, Wicca, Druidry or even Silva's method and see what ultimate fits in with you and how you feel about it. Give yourself time. It doesn't matter which one as long as it has a good appeal to you, whichever appeals more will be the most effective.

 

Peace,

 

Kali

[Sloppy Zhang]

Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

 

There are commentaries on it around the net by Rawn Clark, William Mistele, and some guys at vsociety.net (a user named Veos wrote a good commentary, and another user Prophecy writes a lot of articles on the subject).

 

It is very similar to a lot of qigong and stuff in many respects.

 

The thing with that book is it's rather light on Hermetics philosophy. It gives a few concepts, then gets into stuff you can actually USE. A lot of systems teach rituals first, and those rituals and stuff have the form behind them, but not the power. Their reasoning is that you add power to them as you develop. IIH teaches you to cultivate energy/power first, so you can begin to work with certain forces, and then later on adds rituals to make it a more formalized thing. But first and foremost is the cultivator's own ability, rather than the ability of a certain ritual or key words.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[ralis]

Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

 

There are commentaries on it around the net by Rawn Clark, William Mistele, and some guys at vsociety.net (a user named Veos wrote a good commentary, and another user Prophecy writes a lot of articles on the subject).

 

It is very similar to a lot of qigong and stuff in many respects.

 

The thing with that book is it's rather light on Hermetics philosophy. It gives a few concepts, then gets into stuff you can actually USE. A lot of systems teach rituals first, and those rituals and stuff have the form behind them, but not the power. Their reasoning is that you add power to them as you develop. IIH teaches you to cultivate energy/power first, so you can begin to work with certain forces, and then later on adds rituals to make it a more formalized thing. But first and foremost is the cultivator's own ability, rather than the ability of a certain ritual or key words.

 

In your opinion, is it better to work directly with the elements as opposed to working with the spirits and deities as intermediaries? Thanks for the vsociety link, it is most useful.

 

ralis

[tumoessence]

In your opinion, is it better to work directly with the elements as opposed to working with the spirits and deities as intermediaries? Thanks for the vsociety link, it is most useful.

 

ralis

Working with the elements is much better because it is about refining your own energies and not having magical effects caused by other beings. You don't progress just through that kind of contact. Not only that but those beings can only mirror back to you what configurations you have in your psyche, and in the case of trickster type beings will play on the weakness in your elemental imbalances. In working with your own elemental make up you then can learn to see objectively. and develop your own power and creativity. Ritual contacts give you the feeling you are developing your own abilities but it is an illusion if done too early in training. Also, check out the Emil Stejnar interviews linked in the Books, articles section, and in a recent thread on Bardon.

[Birch Tree]

Hi Spirit Ape,

 

Before I became a Taoist, I practiced Wicca. I was a solitary practitioner and practiced what is known as "low Magik" or "kitchen Magik". Basically, this is the creation of Magik through the use of intention with very limited use of tools and/or ritual ("high Magik" is very ritualistic but is generally not any more or less effective). When casting, I did do some basic ritual like casting the circle three times. Also, I did have a book of shadows (which I still have) as well as a wand and a couple of other items but I kept it pretty simple. However, I avoided entering a coven as there are pros and cons when it comes to coven practice, and for me at the time the cons outweighed the pros.

 

As for the Magik itself, I myself did not cast many spells, but the few that I did cast were very effective. It is important if you are going to practice Wicca that you do so with pure intention. Your Magik should not do anything to harm anyone else nor should you try to use Magik to influence or curtail the free will of others. Love spells and stuff like this are generally not a good idea as they have a way of backfiring on you. Also, I avoided summoning spells--I didn't want to summon something that I couldn't get rid of. If you cast spells for the benefit of others--that is for the best. You can cast generic spells of protection for yourself--that is generally ok to do. For the most part, my time practicing Wicca taught me to be more selfless and considerate of others.

 

If you are serious about getting into Wicca, I would recommend starting out by buying a set of Tarot cards. Cast a cleansing spell on the Tarot cards each time you read them (use a Celtic Cross tableau to start--it is simple enough) and don't read for anyone other than yourself or friends and family whom you trust. The cards will absorb the energy of those you read for, so if you read for individuals who harbor ill will in their heart, your cards will begin to take on that kind of energy and will provide deceptive readings. Positive energy and good thoughts will help your Tarot deck stay true and clear (providing trustworthy readings).

 

Having said all of this, I myself have left all of this behind. I do not practice Wicca or Magik to any appreciable extent anymore since I have become Taoist (though I may still read Tarot on rare occasion).

 

The best advice I can give you is don't be afraid of the unknown. Give it a try and see if it is right for you. If it is, that's great--if not then at least you know that and can go forward from there.

 

I hope this helps you on your journey.

 

Sincerely,

Birch Tree

 

Edit: Typos.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Birch Tree

[ralis]

Working with the elements is much better because it is about refining your own energies and not having magical effects caused by other beings. You don't progress just through that kind of contact. Not only that but those beings can only mirror back to you what configurations you have in your psyche, and in the case of trickster type beings will play on the weakness in your elemental imbalances. In working with your own elemental make up you then can learn to see objectively. and develop your own power and creativity. Ritual contacts give you the feeling you are developing your own abilities but it is an illusion if done too early in training. Also, check out the Emil Stejnar interviews linked in the Books, articles section, and in a recent thread on Bardon.

 

 

Do you feel that applies to Tibetan and Hindu deities? Supposedly the Tibetan deities are enlightened and are beneficial. At least that is what they say.

 

ralis

[tumoessence]

Do you feel that applies to Tibetan and Hindu deities? Supposedly the Tibetan deities are enlightened and are beneficial. At least that is what they say.

 

ralis

I will let the vajrayana specialists answer you here but I would think doing preliminary practices and getting the pointing out intsructions are necessary before working with deities and serves in the place of balancing the elements.

[doc benway]

I don't mean to sound patronizing or smug but I genuinely feel that the dedicated practice of awareness and mindfulness are THE most powerful magic.

[ralis]

I will let the vajrayana specialists answer you here but I would think doing preliminary practices and getting the pointing out intsructions are necessary before working with deities and serves in the place of balancing the elements.

 

 

I have been through all the Tibetan practices i.e, preliminaries and still have problems with some of the teachings. They are probably great for the monks.

 

 

ralis

[theoddore]

What do you consider a system of Magik/witch craft?

 

Im looking for an authentic magic system, since I see Qi Kung and meditation (inner alchemy) magic I like to see any european type magic or energy work that truly works. The Ancient Egyptian mystery schools talk of it so what is magic in your understanding?

 

I see Kaballah is like magic art or am I wrong, chaos magic, etc?

 

Anyone got any magic systems that differ from high level chi kung and inner alchemy of asian system?\

 

Ape

 

Magick can be defined as co-creating reality in conformity with Will through a variety of rituals, gestures and sleight of mind techniques to bypass the consensual belief structure of social and biologically imposed limitations on consciousness.

 

Chaos magick you mentioned, is very similar to Taoism in its approach--sort of like the Taoism of magickal traditions. It is non-dogmatic results-oriented magick.

 

This will get you started:

 

Liber Null & Psychonaut ()

 

You'll get an even more thorough and well-organised introduction (and less of a grumpy old-school occultist vibe) from:

 

Hands-On Chaos Magick

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hands-Chaos-Magic-Re...n/dp/0738715085

 

Any other questions just PM me--I've got a lot of stuff on just about every magical tradition.

 

peace/love

 

theoddore

[ralis]

I don't mean to sound patronizing or smug but I genuinely feel that the dedicated practice of awareness and mindfulness are THE most powerful magic.

 

That is fine and provides a basic foundation. However, there is more to life than just exercising a passive awareness of reality. I practiced Vipassana for years.

 

 

ralis

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I also wanted to experience 'Magic'.. alas, it has revealed itself to be straightforward energy work.. in fact, based on my own experiences, it is the rituals that get in the way.. A couple of short stories:

 

When i was a teenager, +/- 17, the neighbor across the street was a high-school teacher and an 'ethical hypnotist'.. after some prodding by me to 'show me something 'cool' about hypnosis, he asked my parents' permission, and.. he guided me into a state of intense suggestibility.. he took a penny from his pocket, and told me the penny was 'red-hot', then he put it in the palm of my hand.. i yelped and snatched my hand away, impressed by the sensation that obviously wasn't there.. the amazing part, was, that about 10 minutes later there was a blister forming in my palm.. huge evidence of the power of the mind!!

 

That same year, 1967, i was invited to the United Spiritualist Church.. a girl knew at school said she thought i would understand their message.. this Church was Pastored by Ann Gehman, renowned Spiritualist (i didn't know that then).. at the end of the service she asked 'God' for a sign that the service was appropriate.. my head was bowed but, i heard gasps and, when i opened my eyes everyone was looking up.. there was an irridescent blue 'fire' dancing on the ceiling, it lasted a good 20-30 seconds, then faded.. i was impressed but could explain it away, gasses excited by a small electrical current, but cool anyway.. so, as i'm leaving the church, Ms. Gehman was greeting everyone at the door.. she grasps my hand and says, "Don't worry, your dog will be fine".. ?? it didn't mean anything to me, my Daschund, Ginger, was fine.. When i got home dad was gone and mom said, "Dad took Ginger to the emergency Vet, she tried to dig under the chain-link fence, and a barb ripped her back open, head to tail... Ms. Gehman's words burned in my mind, how could she have known??? Later, the next week, Beverly, the girl that invited me in the first place, said, "Ms. Gehman would very much like for you [me] to stop by her office, she has a gift for you.. a little anxious, i was not wired for this much input, yet.. i went by her office after school.. She smiled warmly and (paraphasing now): I know you are curious, you are skeptical, but.. you will understand the purpose of this sooner than you think.. She clasped her hands as if holding a live and delicate creature inside.. she came over to me and said, hold out your hands, please.. i did, and.. when she opened her hands there was that same luminous irridescent flame-like 'stuff'.. it jumped from her hands to mine.. instantly i was buzzing like deep tuning-fork,.. mind-you i was only 17, and by now i'm scared shitless.. i was telling my legs and feet to get me outa there, but they were moving in super-slow motion.. the last thing i heard Ms. Gehman say, was.. it's a 'gift', you'll understand soon enough, bye (in a cheerfully unsettling voice)..

 

1967 was a pivotal year, for me.. i had been given the evidence that would inspire a lifetime of 'paying attention'... from which i have concluded, that 'magic' is simply natural phenomena we don't yet fully understand.. thanks for tolerating my 'stories'..

 

Be well

[Spirit Ape]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, I think that what im doing with my own arts is Magic all Qi Kung is magic as you are playing with Qi, cultivating it, releasing it, moving it etc. Daoist also are into magic hs anyone bought any of the Daoist Magic books from Dr Johnson, Would be interesting to know what his stuff is about?

 

Spirit Ape

[Sloppy Zhang]

In your opinion, is it better to work directly with the elements as opposed to working with the spirits and deities as intermediaries? Thanks for the vsociety link, it is most useful.

 

ralis

 

Hey ralis, sorry if I'm answering your question kind of late, but here's my opinion, influenced heavily by an article that prophecy wrote on vsociety:

 

Basically, one should cultivate both. The thing Bardon stresses the most is even development, and to a certain extent developing the self fully before going out there and interacting with stuff. For example, some systems of magic rely heavily on evoking/invoking deities, performing rituals, and beseeching a higher power for help or asking for knowledge. And, you know, that is fine and dandy. But it can be highly useless if not downright dangerous for someone who doesn't have a high level of personal development. Some beings might not even respond to someone who they do not see as cultivated. Sometimes spirits can get angry at some nobody trying to boss them around. Other times a spirit you didn't call on will take the guise of the one you did call on and try to trick you.

 

A cultivated person, who has worked with energies and has his own mind under control will have a discerning eye and will be able to tell if the spirits he/she is working with are in fact the ones that were evoked/invoked. Someone who has worked with, say, the water element will have a much easier time getting along with other water element entities because that person is more familiar with that element, and other entities will be more receptive to someone who has learned to match their "frequency".

 

Not to mention that a cultivated person will (according to what many advanced practitioners of Bardon's system claim, I have yet to attain this level myself) gain astral senses, clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc etc and that allows you to communicate with spirits/entities/deities, again, for the purposes of learning/doing stuff. In some instances, these entities will even teach you how to increase your own faculties, and may even lend you some of their power. But of course no one is going to get to that level without putting in the required amount of work.

 

Someone who can work well with the elements can, of course, shape things on their own without the aid of spirits/deities, but in some instances a spirit has better control over certain things, so it's just a matter of efficiency to ask for aid. And, again, sometimes an entity is willing to teach you how to do it yourself, as well as do it for you. But that depends on if they like you, agree with your purposes, if they feel you have reached a proper level on your own, etc etc.

 

Again, though, that's not something I have attained, but it is something that a lot of advanced students say, I'd like to get to that point, and that's one of the reasons why I've started to devote more of my time to Bardon's practices.

 

To the point about awareness and mindfulness: that is very helpful and definitely a huge part of the equation, but not the WHOLE part. You can observe all you want and know how things work, but the trick is being able to put things into motion. Now, if you don't want to do that, then you don't have to. But a large part of magic IS putting things into motion, not only being able to see causes and affects, but to cause some affects on your own. Sure, this can be dangerous and lead to morally bad actions. But an evenly designed system (as Bardon's is) also teaches moral cultivation and awareness of thoughts and things like that, so it's not just teaching you to do whatever you want.

 

For Spirit Ape's question about the daoist magic: I honestly believe it really is all very much the same, just with different ways of labeling it. For a while not too long ago I was really trying to just focus on qigong and meditation, and put Bardon's system on hold, mostly because I liked the paradigm of Daoism better, the ideas of energy work, etc etc. But the thing is, there's not a lot of information out there on how to put that stuff to use. I started to read the "Opening the Dragon's Gate" book about Wang Liping, and it was describing some of the daoist magic and stuff..... and it all sounded very much like some Hermetic magic descriptions I have seen. Except that there's far more material out there (and for far cheaper) on Hermetics that actually TEACHES you how to do it, as opposed to just TELLING you about it. And that's why I've decided that I would devote myself more specifically to Bardon's work at this point in my life.

 

Daoist qigong has taught me how to relax, how to feel, how to ground, and lots of good things. But there are definitely other modes of operating, and Bardon's system really touches on all of them.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch Tree]

I don't mean to sound patronizing or smug but I genuinely feel that the dedicated practice of awareness and mindfulness are THE most powerful magic.

Steve f is right--which is why Magik is not limited to any one belief system.

[ralis]

Hey ralis, sorry if I'm answering your question kind of late, but here's my opinion, influenced heavily by an article that prophecy wrote on vsociety:

 

Basically, one should cultivate both. The thing Bardon stresses the most is even development, and to a certain extent developing the self fully before going out there and interacting with stuff. For example, some systems of magic rely heavily on evoking/invoking deities, performing rituals, and beseeching a higher power for help or asking for knowledge. And, you know, that is fine and dandy. But it can be highly useless if not downright dangerous for someone who doesn't have a high level of personal development. Some beings might not even respond to someone who they do not see as cultivated. Sometimes spirits can get angry at some nobody trying to boss them around. Other times a spirit you didn't call on will take the guise of the one you did call on and try to trick you.

 

A cultivated person, who has worked with energies and has his own mind under control will have a discerning eye and will be able to tell if the spirits he/she is working with are in fact the ones that were evoked/invoked. Someone who has worked with, say, the water element will have a much easier time getting along with other water element entities because that person is more familiar with that element, and other entities will be more receptive to someone who has learned to match their "frequency".

 

Not to mention that a cultivated person will (according to what many advanced practitioners of Bardon's system claim, I have yet to attain this level myself) gain astral senses, clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc etc and that allows you to communicate with spirits/entities/deities, again, for the purposes of learning/doing stuff. In some instances, these entities will even teach you how to increase your own faculties, and may even lend you some of their power. But of course no one is going to get to that level without putting in the required amount of work.

 

Someone who can work well with the elements can, of course, shape things on their own without the aid of spirits/deities, but in some instances a spirit has better control over certain things, so it's just a matter of efficiency to ask for aid. And, again, sometimes an entity is willing to teach you how to do it yourself, as well as do it for you. But that depends on if they like you, agree with your purposes, if they feel you have reached a proper level on your own, etc etc.

 

Again, though, that's not something I have attained, but it is something that a lot of advanced students say, I'd like to get to that point, and that's one of the reasons why I've started to devote more of my time to Bardon's practices.

 

To the point about awareness and mindfulness: that is very helpful and definitely a huge part of the equation, but not the WHOLE part. You can observe all you want and know how things work, but the trick is being able to put things into motion. Now, if you don't want to do that, then you don't have to. But a large part of magic IS putting things into motion, not only being able to see causes and affects, but to cause some affects on your own. Sure, this can be dangerous and lead to morally bad actions. But an evenly designed system (as Bardon's is) also teaches moral cultivation and awareness of thoughts and things like that, so it's not just teaching you to do whatever you want.

 

For Spirit Ape's question about the daoist magic: I honestly believe it really is all very much the same, just with different ways of labeling it. For a while not too long ago I was really trying to just focus on qigong and meditation, and put Bardon's system on hold, mostly because I liked the paradigm of Daoism better, the ideas of energy work, etc etc. But the thing is, there's not a lot of information out there on how to put that stuff to use. I started to read the "Opening the Dragon's Gate" book about Wang Liping, and it was describing some of the daoist magic and stuff..... and it all sounded very much like some Hermetic magic descriptions I have seen. Except that there's far more material out there (and for far cheaper) on Hermetics that actually TEACHES you how to do it, as opposed to just TELLING you about it. And that's why I've decided that I would devote myself more specifically to Bardon's work at this point in my life.

 

Daoist qigong has taught me how to relax, how to feel, how to ground, and lots of good things. But there are definitely other modes of operating, and Bardon's system really touches on all of them.

 

You have confirmed what I have felt for years. I think I will start the Bardon IIH today and use it as a manual. Also, I have investigated Michael Bertiaux's system and he works only with the Voudon spirits. I have heard a lot of negative's about his work.

 

Thanks

 

ralis

[Spirit Ape]

Very cool, im downloading Bardons stuff now thanks for the heads up!!!

[theoddore]

You have confirmed what I have felt for years. I think I will start the Bardon IIH today and use it as a manual. Also, I have investigated Michael Bertiaux's system and he works only with the Voudon spirits. I have heard a lot of negative's about his work.

 

Thanks

 

ralis

 

 

Well you really have to dig for the hidden gems but for the most part Bertiaux's system is UNWORKABLE. His approach to the Voudon spirits is highly idiosyncratic and his writing disorganized. IMO you can't really go wrong with Bardon--good call.

 

This is a solid addition to your library as well:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kabbalistic-Handbook...4071&sr=1-6

 

peace/

 

theoddore

[Baguakid]

Hey S.A.

 

hmm.. I would ask what's the purpose of learning magic. It seems it would only be effective to the weak minded (like the Jedi knight mind tricks).

 

Does Doo Wei have any input on this subject?

 

and,

 

 

How's the burning palm DVD coming.

 

tks.

[Spirit Ape]

Hello All,

 

Guys and Gals, I just read over some of the Bardon books and found stuff that has rocked my world in my arts cause what he says is also in my methods but he explains it much better and now its opened up a few new doors in my research and journey of Qi.

 

Thankyou for the people mentioning Bardons work, I cant wait to get sometime to sit down and read all his work I find it very interesting and gives me a feeling of hope or I feel im on the right path in my chosen systems.

 

Peace be with all of you friends....

 

Spirit Ape

Garry

 

Bagua Kid,

 

Thanks for asking, I had it on hold for reasons but will be getting things started up for production very soon, lots of new information from Bardons work that is in my art But i want to research a few things befofe I let out the DVD's. The wait will be much better cause I now see things a little clearer on a few things I couldnt quite explain.

 

I'll be letting you know when its close brother!

 

Peace be with you!

 

Spirit Ape

 

Doo Wai has explained many things to me regarding his arts methods but the books of bardon talks of it in a better light for me to understand. I believe things are now possible for my higher level!!!

 

Thanks everyone ive hit a jackpot I cant explain it yet but will later...

 

Spirit Ape

[Sloppy Zhang]

hmm.. I would ask what's the purpose of learning magic. It seems it would only be effective to the weak minded (like the Jedi knight mind tricks).

 

Well, there are a few subtle differences in the way that magic approaches things to some more eastern traditions.

 

Some traditions focus just on realizing the inherently empty nature of all phenomena, and are just like, "well, that's all you have to do. Realize that, and you are done."

 

The magic oriented people I've talked to (the ones who know what they are doing) also agree. But, of course, until you reach the point of total realization of that, you are still bound by the rules. I think goldisheavy has said similar things in other threads. A rhino can be charging at you, and you can say "it's an empty phenomenon", but until you reach the point where you fully realize that, you are going to get killed by the charging rhino.

 

The magic approach recognizes, yes, it's an empty phenomenon..... but, there are other forces out there, also inherently empty, which you can manipulate to make the empty rhino not charge at you.

 

The final goal is, yes, realizing the truth behind everything, uniting with the Godhead, whatever you want to call your own form of enlightenment/realization, it's all more or less the same. Except that in western traditions they teach things relating to this "illusory world" and how to control this "illusory world". Yes, in the grand scheme of things, you are still working with things that are illusions, things that are empty. Yes, it's very easy to get caught up in the illusions and lose your path, get stuck on working with the mundane for lesser purposes.

 

But, you know, when a rhino is charging at you.......

 

Eventually in magic you develop out of working with the lesser stuff, you move beyond and up to higher levels. Some traditions just focus on the higher levels from the get-go. It really just depends on what (if anything) you want to experience along the way. You can take an airplane or you can drive. If all you care about is getting from A to B in the shortest amount of time, well take the plane. If you want to do other stuff in between A and B, well drive.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[tumoessence]

Even in Tibetan tradition magic and shamanism is relied upon. For example in looking for Tulkus mediiums are often used. Then there is the dzogchen teacher Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who teaches prayer flag magic and magic with the five elements for healing. Thinley Norbus book on the five elements as well. There are long life practices and sadhanas for easing karma. What is important is holding the correct view in relation to the practices.

I think Bardon's methods are closer to Tibetan magic that is generally thought. But still Bardon's system is a valid path towards enlightenment. For example while many may be enchanted with the idea of clairvoyance for use to one's advantage, from what I am gathering it is first a way to check out and see the psychic and soul contents that are still hidden in the depths of one own being so that they can be further worked on. Only after they are made transparent does real objective "seeing" take place. I asked Rawn Clark once about "powers" and he said something like just because you develop these abilities doesn't mean you have to "use" them. It is more that in working though all of Bardon's steps you are transformed in the process and your whole perspective on life is transformed.

I would also encourage everyone who is downloading his works to consider buying the books when possible because it helps ensure that his works continue into the future, and I believe his family is still beneficiary of sales. It is also a way of honoring the tradition of hermetics that Bardon has opened up to us and saying thank you to his spirit in making this material public.

Bill

[Spirit Ape]

Does anyone know if Bardon did sun and moon gazing and what his method of those was?

 

regards

Ape