creating the spirit

[Non]

Do taoists have to create the spirit, or soul?

 

I know this question might seem a bit redundant. But lately I've been thinking about a "need" to cultivate shen, or creating a spirit, or soul because, I don't think I have any of these.

 

I haven't read anything taoist related really, my own interest in taoism came from my interest in the internal martial arts, starting from qigong/chi kung and taiji chuan. Can anyone perhaps point me to a good resources for learning about taoism and the energy work?

 

I am also really interested in taoist internal alchemy and the system of belief that goes with it, any pointers there? I'm mainly interested in it for the internal energy work, and transmutation of sexual energy and more.

 

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

Kind regards

[gendao]

Loosely according to Taoist Yoga, your "essential spirit" (fa shen) gets refined and merged back with your physical body to create an "immortal" yang shen (yang spirit). Which is essentially prenatal shen + prenatal yang qi.

 

This yang shen "will take form when it gathers in one place or will become pure qi when it scatters to fill the great emptiness which will be its boundless body." (p 61) IOW, this jalus could materialize or dematerialize...

 

So yes, you already have a spirit and souls. However, that's just the starting point in Taoist alchemy.

[exorcist_1699]

Nourishing a Spirit is definitely needed because our daily trivial mind of sensing and reasoning can't be the basis for cultivating qi. Both the Taoist and Buddhist ways emphasize it; the only difference is that while the Buddhist ways always skipping the jing and qi, the Taoist way insists that a higher Spirit can be nourished from them .

 

The problem is , this Taoist way of attaining a bigger Spirit is too clear-cut that they deliberately "blur" it with strange jargons and mixed steps ...

[goldisheavy]

The problem is , this Taoist way of attaining a bigger Spirit is too clear-cut that they deliberately "blur" it with strange jargons and mixed steps ...

 

Not even close. It's precisely because people believe everything is clear-cut that they cannot perceive the spirit in the first place. "Clear-cut" is a feeling that a non-contemplative and non-inquisitive person has. Anyone who has bothered to think more than 5 minutes about any topic can see how there is nothing clear-cut.

 

If chair is just a chair, and this is clear-cut, and if the body is just a body, and this too is clear-cut, and if you are just you, and that's clear-cut, the spirit is a little something extra, a little something unnecessary.

[Marblehead]

The following is my understanding and I make no claims that other Taoists believe the same way:

 

All living things (plants and animals) have a spirit. We humans and a few other animals have a soul.

 

The soul is our unconscious mind.

 

Our spirit is the spirit of Tao; the life force of Chi.

 

It is our spirit that links us with the spirit of Tao. It is through this link that we 'realize' Tao.

 

Our spirit (Chi) is linked with our soul (unconscious mind) and it is through this link that we 'experience' (realize or become aware of) 'wu', or the Oneness of Tao (for the Buddhists: realize DO).

 

We can totally ignore our spirit and in this case we would be what is called 'a lost soul'. In this state we are aware only of 'yo', the manifest world (zero spirituality).

 

However, no matter how lost we are we can always return to Tao (realize Tao) because as long as the life force remains within (we are still alive) Tao has never left us.

 

Peace & Love!

[exorcist_1699]

Not even close. It's precisely because people believe everything is clear-cut that they cannot perceive the spirit in the first place. "Clear-cut" is a feeling that a non-contemplative and non-inquisitive person has. Anyone who has bothered to think more than 5 minutes about any topic can see how there is nothing clear-cut.

 

If chair is just a chair, and this is clear-cut, and if the body is just a body, and this too is clear-cut, and if you are just you, and that's clear-cut, the spirit is a little something extra, a little something unnecessary.

 

In the arena of spiritual cultivation , it is always difficult to claim anything clear cut . Our daily trivial mind is full of ups and downs , sorrows and ecstasies ... people are not accustomed to any status that they can assure themselves that they are in safe, they are in grasp of their own future , free of worries of aging ,accidents ,

illness and death . Maybe the only clear-cut status they are sure is that they are awaken , not in a dream ?

 

Yet what Taoist cultivation gives us is totally different , anyway, what I claim "clear- cut " are in the following senses:

 

1) Relative to some Buddhist ways , which ask people to contemplate on problems such as "Who am I? " ,

" What is a mind neither thinking of evil , nor good ?" , for years yet without giving concrete criterion for what can be said to be accomplished , Taoist jing-qi-shen way of course is clear-cut.

 

 

2) The completion of each step in Taoist way is always clear : For example ,stop menstruation or stop of ordinary way of breathing , the practitioner herself clearly knows what she has achieved and its effect on both her body and mind.There is no ambiguity . Besides, what happen first and what happen later is so clear that there can't be any doubts or mixed .

 

3) The emergence of the pre-heavenly way of breathing or a much condensed and clearer Mind , for example , is always abrupt , not a continual process. At that moment, you fail to grasp it , you have to wait patiently for the next moment ...Yet once grasped it , you then know that a quality jump has happened in your life .

Edited November 3, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Ohm-Nei]

The following is my understanding and I make no claims that other Taoists believe the same way:

 

All living things (plants and animals) have a spirit. We humans and a few other animals have a soul.

 

The soul is our unconscious mind.

 

Our spirit is the spirit of Tao; the life force of Chi.

 

It is our spirit that links us with the spirit of Tao. It is through this link that we 'realize' Tao.

 

Our spirit (Chi) is linked with our soul (unconscious mind) and it is through this link that we 'experience' (realize or become aware of) 'wu', or the Oneness of Tao (for the Buddhists: realize DO).

 

We can totally ignore our spirit and in this case we would be what is called 'a lost soul'. In this state we are aware only of 'yo', the manifest world (zero spirituality).

 

However, no matter how lost we are we can always return to Tao (realize Tao) because as long as the life force remains within (we are still alive) Tao has never left us.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Wonderful words, I will surely read these again.

 

I have been completely empty of faith in any high being for all of my life and that is why I feel so challenged in this field. As I study and practice I am gaining faith in the possibilities. I am completely fascinated with the possibilities of own internal energies. I look at this as if it were a game with achievements... you don't gain your abilities over night, it takes time to experience and earn them.

 

I would not mind giving up the materialistic things I've known all my life in order to better understand the side of life that I have never known.

[goldisheavy]

In the arena of spiritual cultivation , it is always difficult to claim anything clear cut . Our daily trivial mind is full of ups and downs , sorrows and ecstasies ... people are not accustomed to any status that they can assure themselves that they are in safe, they are in grasp of their own future , free of worries of aging ,accidents ,

illness and death . Maybe the only clear-cut status they are sure is that they are awaken , not in a dream ?

 

Yet what Taoist cultivation gives us is totally different , anyway, what I claim "clear- cut " are in the following senses:

 

1) Relative to some Buddhist ways , which ask people to contemplate on problems such as "Who am I? " ,

" What is a mind neither thinking of evil , nor good ?" , for years yet without giving concrete criterion for what can be said to be accomplished , Taoist jing-qi-shen way of course is clear-cut.

 

I think the alchemical methods are not necessarily Taoist. I wouldn't say they are un-Taoist or against Tao either. But Taoism as defined by the 3 sages is a contemplative tradition and not an energy cultivation tradition. There is not a word about energy cultivation or qi/jing/shen in Daodejing, Zhuangzi or Liezi, and there is a good reason for it. And it's not because it's "secret." Even if you go with Hua Hu Ching, which I personally do not think was authored by Laozi, you get this picture:

 

From http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/H...0Hu%20Ching.htm

1. Yi Yau, the healing science which incorporates diagnosis, acupuncture, herbal medicine, therapeutic diet, and other methods;

2. Syang Ming, the science which predicts a person's destiny by observing the outward physical manifestations of his face, skeleton, palms, and voice;

3. Feng Shui, the science of discerning the subtle energy rays present in a geographic location to determine whether they will properly support the activities of a building or town constructed there;

4. Fu Kua, the observation of the subtle alterations of yin and yang for the purpose of making decisions which are harmonious with the apparent and hidden aspects of a situation. The foundation of Fu Kua and of all Taoist practice is the study of the I Ching, or Book of Changes.

5. Nei Dan, Wai Dan, and Fang Jung, the sciences of refining one's personal energy through alchemy, chemistry, and the cultivation of balanced sexual energy;

6. Tai Syi, the science of revitalization through breathing and visualization techniques;

7. Chwun Shi, the transformation of one's spiritual essence through keeping one's thoughts in accord with the Divine Source;

8. Shu-Ser, the attunement of one's daily life to the cycle of universal energy rays;

9. Bi Gu, the practice of fasting on specific days in order to gather life energy emanating from the harmonized positions of certain stars;

10. Sau Yi, the science of embracing integral transcendental oneness in order to accomplish conception of the 'mystical pearl';

11. Tai Chi Ch'uan, the performance of physical exercises to induce and direct energy flows within the body to gain mastery of body, breath, mind, the internal organs, and life and death;

12. Fu Chi, the science of reforming and refining one's energy with pure food and herbs;

13. Chuan Se, the inner visualization of the unity of one's inner and outer being;

14. 'Dzai Jing, the purification of one's energy through ascetic practices;

15. Fu Jou, the drawing of mystical pictures and the writing and recital of mystical invocations for the purpose of evoking a response from the subtle realm of the universe;

16. Tsan Syan, the process of dissolving the ego and connecting with the Great Oneness through the study of classical scriptures and daily dialogue with an enlightened master;

17. Lyou Yen and Chi Men, the mystical sciences of energy linkage for the purpose of influencing external affairs. Of these, the most important for beginners is the study of the I Ching, which enables one to perceive the hidden influences in every situation and thus establish a balanced and spiritually evolved means of responding to them. All are instruments for attaining the Tao. To study them is to serve universal unity, harmony, and wisdom.

 

Observe how much broader this is than just qi/jing/shen cultivation. When was the last time you heard a Bi Gu discussion? When was the last time you heard something about Sau Yi on this forum? When was the last time you heard of Tai Syi or Chwun Shi? That's right. Never heard of them around these parts. All you hear is qi/jing/shen in the context of qi gong and tai chi chuan. And then this becomes thought of as "*the* taoist practice". That's very very wrong.

 

2) The completion of each step in Taoist way is always clear : For example ,stop menstruation or stop of ordinary way of breathing , the practitioner herself clearly knows what she has achieved and its effect on both her body and mind.There is no ambiguity . Besides, what happen first and what happen later is so clear that there can't be any doubts or mixed .

 

Ok, but those things that are clear are not helping you to become a Taoist immortal though. You might be working hard to becoming a sophisticated ghost with lots of bells and whistles at your disposal. And please don't take this as a put down. I think ghosts are cool and I have nothing against them. Just that when you go to buy a chocolate, make sure you don't walk away with ice cream. Know what you're after.

 

3) The emergence of the pre-heavenly way of breathing or a much condensed and clearer Mind , for example , is always abrupt , not a continual process. At that moment, you fail to grasp it , you have to wait patiently for the next moment ...Yet once grasped it , you then know that a quality jump has happened in your life .

 

This sounds like total bullshit. For example the phrase "condensed and clearer Mind" has no meaning whatsoever. It's obvious you haven't contemplated the implications.

 

Taoism is better than Buddhism because it has a sense of humor and is less formal. But being clear is not it. Read Zhuang Zi or Laozi. Neither of them praise clarity.

 

Please examine these:

 

http://ariyavansa.org/dc-home/dc-020/

 

http://darist.tripod.com/Temple-of-the-Eas...TAO-TTC-20.html

 

Notice something?

 

Laozi is trying to reach into your thick and ignorant skull there, but apparently he can't.

Edited November 3, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

I would not mind giving up the materialistic things I've known all my life in order to better understand the side of life that I have never known.

 

Hi Ohm,

 

I would like to suggest that we really don't have to give up anything. It is more at allowing ourself to become more open to additional possibilities.

 

I have found some comfort in Native American spirituality. It is very consistent with my Taoist beliefs.

 

But then I will quickly add, we each must find and walk our own path.

 

Peace & Love!

[exorcist_1699]

The following is my understanding and I make no claims that other Taoists believe the same way:

 

All living things (plants and animals) have a spirit. We humans and a few other animals have a soul.

 

The soul is our unconscious mind.

 

Our spirit is the spirit of Tao; the life force of Chi.

 

It is our spirit that links us with the spirit of Tao. It is through this link that we 'realize' Tao.

The point is that the so-called " our spirit " is split : while the real I is deeply hidden on the other side , what we know or are happily with , is in fact a pseudo "I" . Of course, without getting rid of this pseudo one , hardly can our spirit link to the spirit of Tao . The point is not its split into consciousness , sub-consciousness, unconsciousness ... , because no matter what layers/ status it is in , comparing to the real I , the pseudo one is just not "sane " enough . And, because it is not "sane" enough , not pure enough , not high enough , hardly can you rely on it to link with the spirit of Tao . Maybe you can connect a frog's brain to the internet , however , there is no possibility for this poor animal to understand the civilization on it .

Edited November 3, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

The point is that the so-called " our spirit " is split : while the real I is deeply hidden on the other side , what we know or are happily with , is in fact a pseudo "I" . Of course, without getting rid of this pseudo one , hardly can our spirit link to the spirit of Tao . The point is not its split into consciousness , sun-consciousness, unconsciousness ... , because no matter what layers/ status it is in , comparing to the real I , the pseudo one is just not "sane " enough . And, because it is not "sane" enough , not pure enough , not high enough , hardly can you rely on it to link with the spirit of Tao . Maybe you can connect a frog's brain to the internet , however , there is no possibility for this poor animal to understand the civilization on it .

 

Well, I have to agree with this.

 

Nope. I cannot put my finger on my "I" and say "This is it!" Just not possible. Okay, so maybe I made up this thing called "I". I, of course, did it in order to descriminate between me and Hitler. I am not Hitler and he was not me. And I agree, there is no absolute, eternal "I". When I is gone there will no longer be "I" - just a bunch of miscellaneous parts scattered all over the place will remain.

 

Peace & Love!

[voidisyinyang]

p. 61 thanks:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=a_olqazEV...;q=&f=false

 

Loosely according to Taoist Yoga, your "essential spirit" (fa shen) gets refined and merged back with your physical body to create an "immortal" yang shen (yang spirit). Which is essentially prenatal shen + prenatal yang qi.

 

This yang shen "will take form when it gathers in one place or will become pure qi when it scatters to fill the great emptiness which will be its boundless body." (p 61) IOW, this jalus could materialize or dematerialize...

 

So yes, you already have a spirit and souls. However, that's just the starting point in Taoist alchemy.

[voidisyinyang]

p. 61 thanks:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=a_olqazEV...;q=&f=false

 

Here's another description:

 

http://www.healingtaousa.com/articles/taoalchemy_ch08.html

[doc benway]

I'd like to ask if anyone would like to define or discuss the nature of shen -

what does it feel like?

what are its characteristics?

what aspect of 'me' is shen?

is shen collective or individual?

and so on...

 

We frequently throw words around but don't often agree on what we are referring to.

This is of interest to me from the perspective of my own cultivation practice right now.

 

I hope the OP doesn't mind, I think this is germain to the discussion at hand.

[exorcist_1699]

I'd like to ask if anyone would like to define or discuss the nature of shen -

what does it feel like?

what are its characteristics?

what aspect of 'me' is shen?

is shen collective or individual?

and so on...

I can't answer all questions , but would like to talk about few of them . Taoist Shen , different from our present ego which I claim pseudo, does show some soft of collective , moral characteristics; it is the product of the refined qi , after its having reached certain level .

 

Although we always claim understanding other people's ideas and sufferings , yet in most cases, we are just some kind of selfish , not moral individual . Why? the answer is simple , we don't get direct touch with other people's feelings . Qi helps expanding our spirit and making such direct contact possible .

 

In fact, in our cultivation , no matter what way we adopt , Taoist or Buddhist, once we are capable of keeping our mindless situation longer and clearer , our trivial mind starts to have some abrupt change , some qualitative jump happens , such a rise to a different mind is what Taoism calls Shen ( of course, there are different degree of greatness ).

 

Unfortunately many people don't know how to reach it , so they carelessly laugh at Taoist concept of Shen.

These people can mainly be classified into two types:

 

1) Young people who are distracted by their daily ,materialist life. Of course, as their mind are never settled, never static long enough , there is no possibility of pushing their mind to a higher level.

 

2) Old people who , although get a settled mind, yet in which jing and qi are deficient, are still difficult to

nourishing a quality-different mind ; so, similarly they doubt the truth of all those claims related to Shen . However, comparing to the Buddhist way of introducing old people to the Pure Land 's method, Taoist way of asking these old people to accumulate jing and qi to a more abundant status before dreaming of attaining Shen , to me, seems to be a more realistic approach .

Edited November 4, 2009 by exorcist_1699