In defense of the "I"

[C T]

I don't remember Gautama Buddha discussing his? If I Buddha didn't why should I be different?

 

When asked about what enlightenment was: he said the cessation of suffering. I would say that is the awakening to a great reality most of us never perceive because we are INSIDE.

What will help you trascend the illusion is acquiring what is called "zhi gnas" (peaceful abiding) and then you will encounter "lhag thong"; that is, the transcendent insight which is beyond conceptualised thoughts.

 

You tap into it "lhag thong" by practicing deep meditation in a very quiet and relaxed environment away from the hassles of the world.

Hmm thanks for the reply DC. Short and sweet, but gained nothing. Thats ok. I suppose since Buddha did not discuss it, you too, chose not to. Namaste!

[Fruitzilla]

MH: Okay. I still don't get your argument though. My view is certainly not depressing to me.

We're just talking about the ultimate level of analysis. Perhaps you should start another topic if you're looking for "alive and fun and very integrative" conversation.

 

PS. Think about it. The logical conclusion of primitive essentialism is that a broken car was once endowed with a mysterious car-essence which has now left it. Or maybe that depends on whether it can be repaired, or whether it would be more profitable to build a new car from scratch. So now it's a question of economy. Then again, is there such a thing as broken-car-essence, or does each possible car model with each possible type of mechanical defect have it's own transmutable "essence"? How about cars with minor defects, bends or scratches, and every possible placement of such scratches? Where does it end? And where can I see these prototypical ideals?

 

As usual, Diogenes hits the nail on the head:

 

Hi nac,

 

You seem to take it as a given that words are there to point to singular physical objects "out there". That's what you base your critique on at least.

I think that's a rather crude vision of language that some people just don't share. The view of language as being a system to provide accurate descriptions of real existing "things" has been done away with quite nicely a few times in history. Cassirer and Wittgenstein being my favorite language-experts.

Hence my comments on anti-essentialism as not being to the point.

 

I think you'll love Wittgenstein. His "blue book" is online here.

Cassirer in his "Language and Myth" does some very good anthropological work about how language and meaning come about.

[Gerard]

Hmm thanks for the reply DC. Short and sweet, but gained nothing. Thats ok. I suppose since Buddha did not discuss it, you too, chose not to. Namaste!

 

Truth is that this how masters instruct their students: they give them a koan and ask them to go while pondering on it. Follow this advice. I did the same after reading the Diamond Sutra when I first got started in the spiritual path. It was like a new world opening right in front of him, and then I realized that I needed to meditate on my little discovery.

 

Go and meditate on this, CowTao:

 

What was your face like before we were born?

 

Don't come back until you find the answer!

 

We need more stuff like this in this forum instead of chatting over and over the same stuff that is not really helping us progress in the spiritual path. We have become lazy "monks"!

 

More spiritual insight and less blabbler.

[33865_1494798762]

Edited November 6, 2009 by Guest

[Marblehead]

[nac]

Yeah, but it is easier to say "truck" than it is to describe its features and its utility. (KISS)

 

Peace & Love!

That's okay if you're not aiming for consistency of view. IMO, it's difficult to spot delusion if we refuse to analyze the interaction of phenomena, our views and behavior.

Edited November 6, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

IMO, it's difficult to spot delusion if we refuse to analyze our behavior.

 

But if we don't ask the question it really doesn't matter, right?

 

So if I don't ask if I really exist and if I don't ask if my truck really exist I can go out to my truck any time I wish to do so, get into the truck and drive to wherever it is I wish to go any time I wish to do so because I naturally assume that both I and my truck exist, without question.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited November 6, 2009 by Marblehead

[C T]

I wanted to repeat this but I didn't want it to appear that I was pointing to CowTao.

 

Peace & Love!

Ha!

 

"There are no questions that are not created by the mind of man. Just 'be'."

 

Peace & Love!

God bless little innuendos and subtle hint-droppings MH! hehehe

 

Its funny sometimes how ridiculous it can get, when you read someone's comment, and are slightly intrigued by their slant/take on things, and then pose them a question, and suddenly they assume the *teacher* role, thinking that the questioner is asking for advice and answers! Nonetheless its all good i guess..

 

Each time i get responses where i feel as though this 'i' was being talked down to, it kinda rubs me the wrong way, and if not for being mindful, i could easily have reacted with some smart remarks/comments, but what the heck, what does it achieve eh? I mean, all you want is to know whats in a person's thoughts, right?? And all they can offer back is some advice that are found in basic topical literature.. and it does not help either to learn afterwards that these same individuals actually portray themselves to be some kind of spiritual adviser/teacher!! Wooo weee... nothing worse than cloaking oneself in *spiritual* garments, looking all nice and cool outside, while the pride and arrogance are so apparently crude - bare for all to see. Such is life.

 

Btw, this is not in reference to any of our exchanges, just to be clear! Just airing my mind a bit here!

 

You be good my friend!

Edited November 6, 2009 by CowTao

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

What was your face like before you were born?

I see that face in every face i see..

 

Be well..

[C T]

Truth is that this how masters instruct their students: they give them a koan and ask them to go while pondering on it. Follow this advice. I did the same after reading the Diamond Sutra when I first got started in the spiritual path. It was like a new world opening right in front of him, and then I realized that I needed to meditate on my little discovery.

 

Go and meditate on this, CowTao:

 

What was your face like before we were born?

 

Don't come back until you find the answer!

 

We need more stuff like this in this forum instead of chatting over and over the same stuff that is not really helping us progress in the spiritual path. We have become lazy "monks"!

 

More spiritual insight and less blabbler.

Hi Chogori,

 

Lazy monks indeed!

 

Thank you for the reminder - i will try to practice this with much diligence!

 

I agree - good *stuff* are very hard to come by these days...

 

You have a pretty unique name btw - does it mean anything?

[Marblehead]

Btw, this is not in reference to any of our exchanges, just to be clear! Just airing my mind a bit here!

 

You be good my friend!

 

Hehehe. No, I didn't think it was directed at our exchanges. I don't fit in that basket you described.

 

Yes, it is good to state our opinions from time to time. (Of course, you and I have never had a problem with doing that. Hehehe.)

 

Yes, I will try to be good. I'm going to a Bluegrass Festival today so I need be good during the drive there and back and the festival grounds accept only good behavior (which is one of the reasons I enjoy going to them).

 

You be good as well

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Hehehe. No, I didn't think it was directed at our exchanges. I don't fit in that basket you described.

 

Yes, it is good to state our opinions from time to time. (Of course, you and I have never had a problem with doing that. Hehehe.)

 

Yes, I will try to be good. I'm going to a Bluegrass Festival today so I need be good during the drive there and back and the festival grounds accept only good behavior (which is one of the reasons I enjoy going to them).

 

You be good as well

 

Peace & Love!

Wow, you lucky son of a gun!

 

Wishing you the bestest day ever MH.. Have a fun day, and let us know how it goes?

 

Cheers to fizzy colas!! hehe

 

Take care!

[nac]

But if we don't ask the question it really doesn't matter, right?

As long as you're leading a life of unadulterated simplicity IMO. Tribal nations don't need anything more. But not everyone is going to go back and live in "harmony with nature" like them. Like you just said, it doesn't matter what we choose to think or not. Whether we ask questions or don't ask questions can only change other phenomena from our own point of view. If we have incorrect assumptions about how the world works, we'll keep seeing the world through colored glasses. Besides presenting us with a subtly distorted picture of the world around us, this will incessantly mess up our skillfulness in achieving our goals. I can see three ways out: 1) accept the inefficiency and live with it, 2) give up goals altogether and live for the moment, 3) find out how the world really works. Eg. Replace cosmic-essence here with horse, truck, and so on:

I don't mind if you called one of your experiences the "cosmic essence", but I do mind if you turn around and assign properties to this experience based on what you've chosen to call it! (cosmic-essenceness) If I have an experience that subjectively seems like some kind of cosmic essence to me, I'd prefer calling it experience X with such and such properties that APPEARS TO BE the cosmic essence. This is a label I am creating to describe my experience. The experience arose due to it's own causes, it isn't going to magically conform to any prototypical ideals I assign to it.

Assigning a mental prototype to an arisen experience usually involves a little dishonesty. You never know how much of the consequences will proceed in conformity with one's presumptions and mental pictures about the overall scenario. We're okay as long as we keep this in mind IMHO.

Edited November 6, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

As long as you're leading a life of unadulterated simplicity IMO. Tribal nations don't need anything more. But not everyone is going to go back and live in "harmony with nature" like them. Like you just said, it doesn't matter what we choose to think or not. Whether we ask questions or don't ask questions can only change other phenomena from our own point of view. If we have incorrect assumptions about how the world works, we'll keep seeing the world through colored glasses. Besides presenting us with a subtly distorted picture of the world around us, this will incessantly mess up our skillfulness in achieving our goals. I can see three ways out: 1) accept the inefficiency and live with it, 2) give up goals altogether and live for the moment, 3) find out how the world really works. Eg. Replace cosmic-essence here with horse, truck, and so on:

 

Hi Nac,

 

Okay, let me remind everyone who is reading this thread that I am retired. I have established the security of my material world. So what is left? To live!

 

The simplier, the better.

 

Remember also, as GoldIsHeavy pointed out, I am a physicalist. If my physical world is in order I have no problems. So why would I ask questions that would trouble my mind? Especially questions where there is no consensus as to the 'right' answer?

 

And if our view of the physical world is adequate why would we want to trouble our world with illusions and delusions of concepts that cannot be proven or disproven?

 

So, in my case, there are no goals so there is no reason to not live for the moment.

 

For those who have not attained what I have the only suggestion I have is to work hard while you have the health and ability to do so, establish your physical security, then you can spend all the time you wish to ask all the unanswerable questions if that is what gives you pleasure. Or, you can just Live!

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

Okay, let me remind everyone who is reading this thread that I am retired. I have established the security of my material world. So what is left? To live!

 

The simplier, the better.

 

Remember also, as GoldIsHeavy pointed out, I am a physicalist. If my physical world is in order I have no problems. So why would I ask questions that would trouble my mind? Especially questions where there is no consensus as to the 'right' answer?

Good for you then. I'm saying, just for the sake of argument, that inconsistent views can cause problems with the identification of our goals. Eg. after getting what we wanted, we find out it's not what we really wanted after all. I have no problem if this doesn't pertain to you. I'm not saying YOU should study science, philosophy, etc. I'm only trying to make a case for why I think it's a worthwhile endeavor in general.

 

And if our view of the physical world is adequate why would we want to trouble our world with illusions and delusions of concepts that cannot be proven or disproven?

What makes you say that? There are only two branches of human knowledge where things can be proven or disproven: the abstract fields of logic and maths. Nothing outside these two fields can be proved with absolute certainty, because "proof" is a purely logical concept in the first place that doesn't sit well with the messy "real world". So why study, say, physics? There is no "right answer" yet in most areas of modern scientific study, and some places where "right answer" is the wrong way to think about it. Because we can make probabilistic predictions by studying chains of causality, thereby improving our understanding of the universe, our practical methods, etc. The same can apply to philosophy and consistency of world-views IMO. (maybe not to the extent of natural science)

 

So, in my case, there are no goals so there is no reason to not live for the moment.

Do as you like. Have fun!

 

For those who have not attained what I have the only suggestion I have is to work hard while you have the health and ability to do so, establish your physical security, then you can spend all the time you wish to ask all the unanswerable questions if that is what gives you pleasure. Or, you can just Live!

As the saying goes, all a man needs in life is a good woman and a metaphysical wrangle. My advice: If it's in your genes, don't fight it!

Edited November 7, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

Good for you then. I'm saying, just for the sake of argument, that inconsistent views can cause problems with the identification of our goals. Eg. after getting what we wanted, we find out it's not what we really wanted after all. I have no problem if this doesn't pertain to you. I'm not saying YOU should study science, philosophy, etc. I'm only trying to make a case for why I think it's a worthwhile endeavor in general.

What makes you say that? There are only two branches of human knowledge where things can be proven or disproven: the abstract fields of logic and maths. Nothing outside these two fields can be proved with absolute certainty, because "proof" is a purely logical concept in the first place that doesn't sit well with the messy "real world". So why study, say, physics? There is no "right answer" yet in most areas of modern scientific study, and some places where "right answer" is the wrong way to think about it. Because we can make probabilistic predictions by studying chains of causality, thereby improving our understanding of the universe, our practical methods, etc. The same can apply to philosophy and consistency of world-views IMO. (maybe not to the extent of natural science)

Do as you like. Have fun!

As the saying goes, all a man needs in life is a good woman and a metaphysical wrangle. My advice: If it's in your genes, don't fight it!

 

Okay. No more talking about me.

 

Well, sure, we will at times set goals that we think are important at the time and after achieving the goal we realize that it wasn't all that important. That's life.

 

I agree that we all should have a well-rounded education and higher education if we qualify and can afford it.

 

Regarding proof, remember, we each decide what proof we are going to accept regarding our reality. There are still a lot of people who accept as proof the time-table of the universe as described in the Christian Bible. Other 'proofs' mean nothing to them.

 

Well, I tried the 'good woman' thing and it didn't work out for me. Oh well. Naughty ones do fine now.

 

Peace & Love!

[Eviander]

I didn't want to go over the whole thread (lol hehe) but as concerns for what I am I know not what it is...

 

or who

 

or how

 

??

[33865_1494798762]

Truth is that this how masters instruct their students: they give them a koan and ask them to go while pondering on it. Follow this advice. I did the same after reading the Diamond Sutra when I first got started in the spiritual path. It was like a new world opening right in front of him, and then I realized that I needed to meditate on my little discovery.

 

Go and meditate on this, CowTao:

 

What was your face like before we were born?

 

Don't come back until you find the answer!

 

We need more stuff like this in this forum instead of chatting over and over the same stuff that is not really helping us progress in the spiritual path. We have become lazy "monks"!

 

More spiritual insight and less blabbler.

My face was as ever as now made of all the the stars you can imagine - complete.

Do you really know what I am telling you, what I am talking about?

[nac]

Okay. No more talking about me.

 

Well, sure, we will at times set goals that we think are important at the time and after achieving the goal we realize that it wasn't all that important. That's life.

 

I agree that we all should have a well-rounded education and higher education if we qualify and can afford it.

 

Regarding proof, remember, we each decide what proof we are going to accept regarding our reality. There are still a lot of people who accept as proof the time-table of the universe as described in the Christian Bible. Other 'proofs' mean nothing to them.

Good enough for me.

 

Well, I tried the 'good woman' thing and it didn't work out for me. Oh well. Naughty ones do fine now.

 

Peace & Love!

That's my advice to Taoists anyway. Buddhists try to identify their destructive urges and look for ways to have them subside of their own accord.

[nac]

[Marblehead]

Everything containing heavy elements is literally made of stardust.

 

Yep. We all are stardust. Therefore, not even considering other factors, we are all related eternally.

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

Yep. We all are stardust. Therefore, not even considering other factors, we are all related eternally.

 

Peace & Love!

How come? I don't feel kinship to things because they're composed of the same up and down quarks as me. Neither do I find matter composed of top, bottom, strange or charmed quarks fundamentally alien to myself because my body is made up of different particles.

Edited November 10, 2009 by nac

[Marblehead]

How come? I don't feel kinship to things because they're composed of the same up and down quarks as me. Neither do I find matter composed of top, bottom, strange or charmed quarks fundamentally alien to myself because my body is made up of different particles.

 

Well, like it or not, that's just the way it is. Hehehe. From stardust we enter and to stardust we exit. Just be gentle with your quarks and particles, some other manifestation will have to use them later on.

 

I guess we have talked the "I" out of this topic and all that left is "us". And not much activity from "us" either.

 

Be well, child of the stars.

 

Peace & Love!

[Adventure1]