Taoist roots of Zen???

[MatthewQi]

I came across this interesting book cover on Amazon...

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1570620636...474#reader-link

 

Is that Lao-tzu riding on the bull?

[Cameron]

Nope. Zen Flesh , Zen Bones was one of the first books I read on Zen. It contains Mumonkan(No Gate Barrier) and lots of Zen stories. The cover is one of the Ten Ox Hearding pictures which illustrate the different stages of seeking and practice on the path to enlightenment(As defined in Zen).

 

That picture looks like the 6th stage called " Riding the Ox home".

 

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/ox.html

Edited December 16, 2005 by Cameron

[MatthewQi]

I finally read the book Zen Flesh , Zen Bones. I really enjoyed it. There is a nice intro on the "10 Bulls" which explains that the bulls in the drawings were based on previous Taoist bulls. As long as it's not based on BullS^%$ Ahem, anyway, I didn't realize what the bull represented prior to reading the intro when I had read the 10 Bulls before. Now it all makes sense.

 

Great book Cam!

 

Matt

[Cameron]

From what I understand "The Bull" is a metaphor for your mind.

 

Cam

[MatthewQi]

From what I understand "The Bull" is a metaphor for your mind.

 

Cam

 

Hi Cam,

 

In the intro to 10 bulls it says that "the bull is the eternal principle of life, truth in action". The intro also says that the "ten bulls represent sequent steps in the realization of one's true nature".

 

Matt

[cloud recluse]

If yor interested in Daoist roots for Zen,youve REALLY gotta check out THE TAO OF ZEN by Ray Grigg

 

Has anyone here read it.It makes a strong case for Zen being Daoism culturally emerging in Japan via a somewhat ill-fitting use of the trappings & structures of Mahayana Buddhism !!

 

Regards,Cloud.

[...]

wierd. I read a book called 'the tao of zen', except it was by alan watts.

Dont remember much, if any of it, now.. except that my impression of alan ... that he is really an excellent author, and really knows his eastern philosophy.

 

maybe I should read it again sometime =p

[cloud recluse]

wierd. I read a book called 'the tao of zen', except it was by alan watts.

Dont remember much, if any of it, now.. except that my impression of alan ... that he is really an excellent author, and really knows his eastern philosophy.

 

maybe I should read it again sometime =p

 

Interesting I can remember A.Ws "TAO:THE WATERCOURSE WAY" was pretty cool.Cant recall seeing a TAO OF ZEN by him though.Did you ever glance at the Alan Watts & Pschedelics thread a few months ago ?

 

Regards,Cloud

[...]

AW and psychedlics??? oooooooooo aweomse O_O I am a firm believer in the spiritual potential pf psychedlic use. (shame I can't really do it anymore...)

[MatthewQi]

If yor interested in Daoist roots for Zen,youve REALLY gotta check out THE TAO OF ZEN by Ray Grigg

 

Has anyone here read it.It makes a strong case for Zen being Daoism culturally emerging in Japan via a somewhat ill-fitting use of the trappings & structures of Mahayana Buddhism !!

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

Cool, I will have to check it out! Thanks!

[cloud recluse]

Heres an intersting little nugget fom Grigg's THE TAO OF ZEN that I just want to throw out there:

 

"Zen moves to the soft receptivity of emptiness and nothingness more methodically and deliberately than Taoism.Because the contemplative tradition of Taoism exists outside the institutional structure of Buddhism,is has proceeded organically by relating the wisdom in its literature to the dynamics of the world,and then noting what happens.Insight in Taoism gradually surfaces through a process of elimination,by discovering what is not the Way.This process continues until a "feeling" begins to coalesce.This feeling falls entirely outside the bounds of explanation or rules.It is analogous to the artists sense of beauty,the scientists sense of natural symmetry,the athletes sense of impeccable timing;these are comparable to both the Taoist and Zen experience.But the Zen approach,because of Buddhism,has been more structured than Taoisms organic process." pp217-218.

 

Any comments on that one? I think its really neat

 

Regards,Cloud

[Wayfarer64]

As far back as Fu Hsi (Foo She), who was a very ancient Emporer of China, about 2200 years before Lao Tze, and therefore the true start to the practice of the Tao -the way...anyway back in almost prehistoric China... a mystical tradition was being developed. Burning tortoise shells and reading the cracks that developed was the start that led to the Ba Gua or 8 "sections" that became the basis for both Feng Shui and the Yi Jing... All very mystical and relating to the spirit world.

Then 2200 years until Lao Tze is credited with the formation of a "classic" Taoism of philosophy with a sort of organized religious quality. Then not so long after 100 years or so circa 500BC, Confucius got involved in Taoism

Itwas the Bodidarma who sought to bring Buddhism to China -Circa 500 AD and his words got added into Taoist teachings, or vice-versa to become what we now know of as Zen...Very Mystical and quiet and internal....Which the Japanese brought to fruition to a large extent.

Again a history of individuals who had a drive to spread the word... as in almost all religions and philosophies...So the roots of Zen are more Buddhist than Taoist only in it is considered more a sect of Buddhism than Taoism...But I think it may be close to the original Taoism in its mysticism as well... Any ideas about this out there...?

Edited September 11, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[DanC]

Ive mentioned this before, Zen practitioners virtually pay no attention to Chi cultivation.

Bhuddists from the Shaolin Chan sect seem to be very into Chi and its cultivation, this

has always made me wonder why the Japanese Chan (Zen) practitioners really pay

no attention to Chi, sure they probably have alot of Chi from so much sitting but they

do no practive Chi Kung of any sorts. Whereas Taoist practices all have something to do

with Chi. Anyone know why??

[duncan]

Ive mentioned this before, Zen practitioners virtually pay no attention to Chi cultivation.

Bhuddists from the Shaolin Chan sect seem to be very into Chi and its cultivation, this

has always made me wonder why the Japanese Chan (Zen) practitioners really pay

no attention to Chi, sure they probably have alot of Chi from so much sitting but they

do no practive Chi Kung of any sorts. Whereas Taoist practices all have something to do

with Chi. Anyone know why??

 

The general gist is that Buddhism traditionally regards the cultivation of insight into reality as of the most importance. You could say [but this is not definitive]:

In Taosim, cultivation of Qi features strongly with hints about the Universal Reality [Tao] circulating here and there.

In Buddhism, the Universal Reality is of primary importance, with Qi cultivation being a useful by-product of meditation practice.

So... you could say that Buddhism and Taoism are the same thing looked at from different directions. [Yin and Yang? ]

 

Word,

 

Duncan

[Wayfarer64]

The general gist is that Buddhism traditionally regards the cultivation of insight into reality as of the most importance. You could say [but this is not definitive]:

In Taosim, cultivation of Qi features strongly with hints about the Universal Reality [Tao] circulating here and there.

In Buddhism, the Universal Reality is of primary importance, with Qi cultivation being a useful by-product of meditation practice.

So... you could say that Buddhism and Taoism are the same thing looked at from different directions. [Yin and Yang? ]

 

Word,

 

Duncan

 

I like that, soft/hard approaches to the center of one's being... It may be a cultural thing also- whereas Taoist Monks had to be warriors as well as practicioners of meditation... perhaps Buddhism developed in somewhat more peaceful times or places...Or the warrior class protected the monks...

[Mandrake]

The taoist connection to Zen/Chan is overstated. I don't know who came up with this thesis and why it is so persistent.

Virtually no one ever speaks about the influence of confucianism, which has been a little bit bigger than tao.

 

Allthough the indian Dhyana sect, when entering China, was so formidable to adopt the existing litterary and cultural style of expression, this didn't turn it into daoism. The very analytical writing style of indian buddhism was changed into something that suited the chinese better.

 

The Zen buddhist vision, cosmology and practices are not daoist.

 

Mandrake

[Wayfarer64]

The taoist connection to Zen/Chan is overstated. I don't know who came up with this thesis and why it is so persistent.

Virtually no one ever speaks about the influence of confucianism, which has been a little bit bigger than tao.

 

Allthough the indian Dhyana sect, when entering China, was so formidable to adopt the existing litterary and cultural style of expression, this didn't turn it into daoism. The very analytical writing style of indian buddhism was changed into something that suited the chinese better.

 

The Zen buddhist vision, cosmology and practices are not daoist.

 

Mandrake

 

We are mostly looking at the roots of the system and how it first developed from the Bodidarma bringing the relativly new ideas of Buddhism to the long-standing Taoist philosophers already going strong in China... And then how Zen manifested and eventually became its own sect sometime afterwards -(and found its strongest base in Japan).

The different strengths and concepts have been touched on but we haven't really gotten into how these three systems developed into today's seperate manifestations either apart and or together until yr entry.

What is currently thought of as Zen is not a stand-alone entity but developed from a mingling of past influences that certainly had Taoism among them. This being the more mystical rather than the later Confucian ideas, (Here you and I differ)- but they couldn't have predated the Bodidarmas influence on Buddhist thought. They didn't enter the picture - until his contact with the Chinese. As you have pointed out, & they had their own slant as it were...

We haven't yet gotten to the VERY strong Japanese teachers of Zen... Which had probably more influence on todays Zen than did the ancients.

Still, there are some poets like Han Shan, who have been tendered as proponents of both Buddhist and Taoist imagry and content.

[DanC]

Anyone about Shinto, where does that fit into the Zen sect, did they have any influence..

[Cameron]

Shinto is interesting. The founder of Aikido was Shinto. It sort of reminds me of Nativa American spirituality in that its deeply connected to the spirituality of the people who live there.

 

The thing with Zen is there is this real universality to it. I think Zen and Mahayana Buddhism in general are very universal and were meant to be embraced by people of all countries and races. Shinto sort of reminds me of Native American Spirituality. It's cool, but really more connected to a specific group rather than the universality of Zen or Taoism.

 

By universality I mean the wide application of teachings like Lao Tzu or The Dalai Lama or Bodhidharma. They don't get bogged down to any cultural view. Teachings like compassion, sitting and quieting your mind and letting your natural goodness flower etc, these can be applied to anything even someone from a different religion probably.

 

But if an American guy feels called to study Shinto or Shamanism or whatever that's cool too.

[Mandrake]

Ok Wayfarer,

I could continue with drawing arguments from buddhist history and development in China, but let's be more concrete.

What exactly in Chan/Zen is Taoist? Give me particulars, it will help to discuss this topic.

 

Mandrake

 

 

 

We are mostly looking at the roots of the system and how it first developed from the Bodidarma bringing the relativly new ideas of Buddhism to the long-standing Taoist philosophers already going strong in China... And then how Zen manifested and eventually became its own sect sometime afterwards -(and found its strongest base in Japan).

The different strengths and concepts have been touched on but we haven't really gotten into how these three systems developed into today's seperate manifestations either apart and or together until yr entry.

What is currently thought of as Zen is not a stand-alone entity but developed from a mingling of past influences that certainly had Taoism among them. This being the more mystical rather than the later Confucian ideas, (Here you and I differ)- but they couldn't have predated the Bodidarmas influence on Buddhist thought. They didn't enter the picture - until his contact with the Chinese. As you have pointed out, & they had their own slant as it were...

We haven't yet gotten to the VERY strong Japanese teachers of Zen... Which had probably more influence on todays Zen than did the ancients.

Still, there are some poets like Han Shan, who have been tendered as proponents of both Buddhist and Taoist imagry and content.

[cloud recluse]

The taoist connection to Zen/Chan is overstated. I don't know who came up with this thesis and why it is so persistent.

 

 

It would be really trippy & intense if it turns out to be a false thesis!! I mean,its one I practically grew up on !! I think nearly everything Ive read on Zen,as well as every discussion I can recall with others on the topic,pretty much took this as a given fact !!

 

Am I right,is the Dao-Zen connection pretty much taken for granted? If so,to refute it would be fascinating.

 

Regards,Cloud.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi again Cloud And Mandrake etal-

 

First I think we can be pretty sure that Bodidarma and fellow monks did bring Buddhism to China from India. It did not spring up as if in a parralel universe on its own. When Buddhism reached China Taoism was there already. It is a very natural and reasonable conclusion to make that some Buddhism remained quite pure, some Taoism remained pure and there was also a synthisis created that took componants of each. There is not very much argument that these two paths created a third. It did not fade away into nothingness so that much later what became known of as Zen could emerge. It grew into what became known of as Zen.

Zen is not Taoist. Zen has remnants of Taoist mystisism and martial traditions, there are strong similarities in some very basic concepts of satori being of the moment asTaoist insight is of the moment.

Now I am not one of those who say that Zen is some sort of "cheap" Japanese knock-off and culturally reworked copy. I concider that an extremest view.

The legitimate synthesis of Buddhist and Taoist concepts has been denied most furvently by those who would have Japanese Zen held up as a singular practice and understanding of the nature of our world as their's alone.

But that would be similar to saying Japanese characters (or written language)- have no basis in ancient Chinese characters. There is an historicly traceable connection to these deep similarities. Even the Court manners of Emperial China can be seen in much of what became Japanese culture.

For my generation D.T. Sazuki was held as the foremost purvayor of Zen thought and it was he who introduced Zen to many in the west -much as Bodidarma brought the Buddhist doctrines to China. He too allows for these historical morphs.

I for one give Japanese historians little credance for historical accuracy. There is a pronounced distortion of fact all too often when China is involved. The Japanese deny China's deep and lasting influence. They work very hard to make themselves out to be the superior culture, while at the same time denying their own short-commings. The denial of the heinous rape of Nanking is the best known example of this sort of attitude. They revile the Chinese and yet time and again act scared and jealous of their huge and powerful neighbor.

The Japanese have little in their culture that did not come from the mainland and was then transformed into a singularly Japanese way and style. They worked and still work very hard at creating these diferences.

There is a sort of genious in this ability to transform artforms and practices into what would appear to be strictly Japanese.

Kabuki and Noh theater seem to be entirely Japanese and certainly have become so ...lacquer-carving which originated in Burma is often claimed as Japanese. the famed culture of Zen archery has strong similarities to Taoist martial practices, and seems to me to have little connection to Buddhist martial tradition but in this I admit ignorence of very early martial practices of Buddhist monks. I do know more about Taoist martial traditions and they are similar to Zen archery practices and also traditions found in Aikido.

 

There is a Zen Koan or anecdote that illustrates my point.

One day Hyakujo and his master Baso saw a flight of wild geese rise from a lake. Baso asked 'Where are they flying?"

"They have already flown away master."

Baso grabbed Hyakujo's nose.

Baso said" You say they have flown away, but they have all been here from the beginning."

 

The "formless" origin is inaccessible and inconceivible if one only accepts the concrete form as real.

To claim the here and now as the only reality is missing the true nature of the thing, the history is a part of the things "isness"...

Zen may have taken wing and flown its own way but it still remains by the lake-side as one part of Taoism's future as a part of Buddhism..

[Cameron]

I kept trying to respond to some of this but realize the silliness of my ego to have any real clue as to what the depths of Zen or Taoism are really about and how they do or don't relate to eachother.

 

Probably Thomas Cleary has written a book about this or something.

[GrandTrinity]

I was reading in Solala Towlers most recent, wonderful book. (I THINK? not sure where i read this maybe it was fromm Yang Jwing...no I read too many books at once!):

 

Buddhism came from India and mixed with the Tao to form Chan

Chan then mixed with Bushido after going to Japan to form ZEN

 

And there you have it!

 

True?

[Wayfarer64]

I was reading in Solala Towlers most recent, wonderful book. (I THINK? not sure where i read this maybe it was fromm Yang Jwing...no I read too many books at once!):

 

Buddhism came from India and mixed with the Tao to form Chan

Chan then mixed with Bushido after going to Japan to form ZEN

 

And there you have it!

 

True?