John Painter

[kadishtu]

Hi guys,

 

Here

 

does somebody knows him ?

Work with him ?

If yes, could tell us if what he teaches is interesting ?

 

See you

Edited November 5, 2009 by kadishtu

[Spirit Ape]

A kung fu brother and Good friend of mine Sifu Dale Dugas is one of his Representives in Boston he also teaches Iron Palm / Body. Dale only has good things to say about Master Painter!

 

If you like I can get Dales email or pass on any questions to Dale for you about his teacher?

 

regards

Spirit Ape

[kadishtu]

 

If you like I can get Dales email or pass on any questions to Dale for you about his teacher?

 

 

Hi Spirit Ape, thank you for answering me so quickly

 

No, I don't need you to disturb your friend for this, because I've already disturbed Mister Painter by E-mail

 

I'm here to talk about one precise point in fact...

When I saw this guy (pictures on his site)... wow, I felt like watching a bodybuilder !

It was a complete contradiction with wath I thaught to know about internal martial arts.

My only ressource about these where the books of Jerry Alan Johnson (Pa kua chang chi kung vol 1 to 6), who seems to be the priest of the motto "you're a internal martial artist, so don't even think about weightlifting !!!".

Then on other forums, I met other guys who told me the same motto: "no weight for Internal M.A."

 

And this Shifu, not only take the time to answer me back, 2 or 3 times via E-mail, but also change my opinion about it with some very clear statements.

 

So, in your opinion, is weightlifting incompatible/compatible with Nei Jia Chuan ?

Do both sides (muscles/no muscles) of the Nei Jia Chuan give the same results ?

If only I was living in USA, I could meet both J.A. Johnson and J. Painter to make my own opinion, but I'm so far and curious at the same time !

 

Regards,

Kadishtu

[Gerard]

If you train proper IMA under the guidance of a reputable teacher you won't feel like to do any weight training at all, simply because you will have no energy left.

[Spirit Ape]

All internal martial arts originally had strength training, body weight and heavy objects lik balls, bags, bars, and weapons to train the power.

 

Shaolin monks was known for there internal power although some think shaolin was only exterbal hard afst forms. Monks also did 72 art of training the body and developing unspeakable feats through meditation and hard methods.

 

Bagua also has heavy balls similar to my art and mine is shaolin system (well one of my systems).

 

You must have hard and soft to have skill!

 

Ape

[Moon Knight]

No matter how internal/esoteric one gets with one's martial arts practice, or qigong in general, one still needs some muscle power and the stronger your muscles are, the more power they can offer in the most efficient way. Even though internal martial arts rely heavily on tendons for their power, there is still some percentage of muscle strength used as well. Plus, strength training is good for keeping overall fitness where it should be.

 

Another important thing to note, there is a difference between weight lifting and bodybuilding. Weightlifting can certainly build muscle, or at least make it more defined (muscle won't be packed on if you are not eating the necessary calories to gain weight) but it doesn't have to translate into growing huge muscles. A bodybuilder's goal is muscle size and shape, not strength or fitness. One can lift weights with health and strength in mind; gaining some muscle is a side effect.

 

Just choose your training program carefully to focus on building strength and power. Make sure you stretch after working out and if possible do some relaxing qigong, and I believe you won't have problems. If you are still wary you could limit yourself to bodyweight exercises. It would still involve some resistance, but some say this builds more supple muscles. I'm not sure about that claim, but you can consider it if you like.

[Baguakid]

Edited November 6, 2009 by Baguakid

[Dainin]

It's been a while since I've seen it, but I think I remember in Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and Shou Yu Liang's book on bagua they show some exercises being done with cinder blocks, like carrying them around the circle with arms extended, palms up, etc. I'm not certain what the author's backgrounds are in this art, or if these conditioning exercises are typically characteristic in it's training.

 

My tai chi teacher is always on my case for too much un-necessary muscular tension in my upper body while doing the movements!

[Moon Knight]

It's been a while since I've seen it, but I think I remember in Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and Shou Yu Liang's book on bagua they show some exercises being done with cinder blocks, like carrying them around the circle with arms extended, palms up, etc. I'm not certain what the author's backgrounds are in this art, or if these conditioning exercises are typically characteristic in it's training.

 

My tai chi teacher is always on my case for too much un-necessary muscular tension in my upper body while doing the movements!

 

I've read some assertions (and it seems reasonable) that some people are better able to relax their muscles if they weight (or resistance) train, because of a stronger mind-muscle connection. I think it all comes down to how one chooses to train; most importantly how much mental focus you give to your body when lifting, not just mindless repetition. Also exercise selection and time under tension versus rest may play a role too.

 

This isn't meant to be directed at you, Dainin, just what you said about muscle tension made me think of something more to add

[Spirit Ape]

I train internal arts and my arts also contain ancient training methods that use heavy objects, light and medium too!

 

You must understand both Yin Yang and Yau Kung if you truly want to regard yourself as a Martial artist or unless you just doing meditation but even yoga and stuff build the body and keeps it strong so the Yogis can meditate longer and keep focused as well be flexible.

 

Ape

[Gerard]

Bagua also has heavy balls similar to my art and mine is shaolin system (well one of my systems).

 

You must have hard and soft to have skill!

 

Ape

 

Well, I have no idea of what sort of Bagua you train but for instance in here:

 

 

Here:

 

(lower basin)

 

Or here:

 

 

 

You won't last very long by adding extra weights to your body.

[doc benway]

I train internal arts and my arts also contain ancient training methods that use heavy objects, light and medium too!

 

You must understand both Yin Yang and Yau Kung if you truly want to regard yourself as a Martial artist or unless you just doing meditation but even yoga and stuff build the body and keeps it strong so the Yogis can meditate longer and keep focused as well be flexible.

 

Ape

 

+1

 

Our training methods in Taijiquan include strength training methods at more advanced levels. A very small percentage of students get to that point and even fewer actually put the time in to do it. We also use heavy, medium, and light.

 

There's a lot of misconception about internal arts. Strength training doesn't necessarily build a lot of muscle bulk but trains how to work with force, which is absolutely critical. I don't have an opinion one way or another about weight training and body building for internal arts. I don't think it would hurt to also build physical strength but I don't think it's essential. Internal arts emphasize using technique (coordination power, timing, movement) to overcome superior physical strength.

 

I've met John Painter and participated in a Qigong seminar and Bagua seminar with him. He has skill and is an excellent teacher.

Edited November 6, 2009 by steve f

[z00se]

I don't think it would hurt to also build physical strength but I don't think it's essential. Internal arts emphasize using technique (coordination power, timing, movement) to overcome superior physical strength.

 

I body build and do qigong and tai chi. Meditation is good so that i can body build better, feeling every aspect of my body so i can strengthen it in a balanced and healthy way. At first i thought body building was making my tai chi worse, but after a while longer it's fitted in fine. As long as you do stretching too to stay flexible and some running or cardio stuff it all fits together perfectly. Tai chi keeps you soft and supple and gives some type of fighting skill, meditation can help you build your qi and quieten your mind, and body building gives you strength and some arms that makes you proud when you wear a t-shirt Also when you do tai chi and weights together it means you don't need to be so 'perfect with the timing and coordination because of your extra strength (even without intending to use your strength) it gives you a little bit of lee-way in combat.

 

Plus body building is useful in the real world when u have to do some work like carry some heavy stuff or something.

 

I like lifting weights, its' fun

[kadishtu]

Thanx guys for all your interesting answers.

 

Well, now I'll have to travel to meet Mister Painter or one of his representatives

[Moon Knight]

I body build and do qigong and tai chi. Meditation is good so that i can body build better, feeling every aspect of my body so i can strengthen it in a balanced and healthy way. At first i thought body building was making my tai chi worse, but after a while longer it's fitted in fine. As long as you do stretching too to stay flexible and some running or cardio stuff it all fits together perfectly. Tai chi keeps you soft and supple and gives some type of fighting skill, meditation can help you build your qi and quieten your mind, and body building gives you strength and some arms that makes you proud when you wear a t-shirt Also when you do tai chi and weights together it means you don't need to be so 'perfect with the timing and coordination because of your extra strength (even without intending to use your strength) it gives you a little bit of lee-way in combat.

 

Plus body building is useful in the real world when u have to do some work like carry some heavy stuff or something.

 

I like lifting weights, its' fun

 

A few things for you and others to consider....

 

-You are talking about strength training as a crutch to keep from having to perfect your Tai Ji forms. So long as you master walking with that crutch, you will never learn to walk. Strength training should be a walking stick, used on occasion to support and enhance one's legs, but generally kept swinging at one's side.

 

-The type of bodybuilding you are talking about is different from the strength training most anyone else posting on this thread has been emphasizing. Bodybuilding does not emphasize using your body as one unit which is very important for IMA and for Taoist cultivation. Nor does bodybuilding cultivate muscle strength or efficiency. Any muscle strength gained is a side effect to the hypertrophy that bodybuilders aim to give their muscle. The result are persons that are fairly weak for their size.

 

As I noted before, there are different weight lifting strategies, and bodybuilding is only one of them. Also I would question you on calling it a healthy practice. Because it encourages isolation exercises more than other strength training strategies, because of the rather high protein intake, because of the unnaturally lean levels some bodybuilders get to for competition (when they can hardly stand up), and because of the lengths they will go to get to that point (diuretics, fat burners, extreme diets, electrolyte manipulation), I'd say the sport is rather unhealthy.

 

Perhaps you are using bodybuilding in an extremely loose context to mean just sculpting your body. Yet still, that suffers from the first few practices I cited.

 

-Bodybuilding tends to promote in oneself a body-image obsession, whereby one's happiness and pride is derived from one's appearance. You give off that vibe rather clearly in your post. Yet the Tao is in being satisfied and happy no matter one's state, open to any change. Feeling that attachment to a certain body-image, and creating the good-bad dichotomy between states moves one away from Tao rather than towards it.

 

-I have to note, "bodybuild" is not a verb.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Consider Qi, like a highly refined fuel.. then, conside the usefulness of this fuel.. if i put it in worn-out, poorly maintained '63 VW, the fuel (Qi) only has so much usefulness.. but, put it in a '86 RUF 911 Turbo and the usefulness is greatly enhanced.. so it is with our bodies, the Qi is most useful in a healthy well maintained 'vehicle'.. Yin and Yang (soft AND hard) are most effective in a balance application..

 

I train my body in a balance of strength and flexibility.. i train my body to express both extreme hardness and extreme softness, both are essential.. i never train with weights that exceed my body weigt, and usually train with just the body itself.. i'm really beginning to appreciate the 'rings', the ones that are suspended like gymnasts use.. a beautiful balance of strength and flexibility.. i have set-up a circle of eight bricks standing on end, and i practice circle-walking on these bricks (one of Dr' Yang's suggestions).. the 'rooting in motion' is greatly enhanced by this practice..

 

Another challenge i am working on is learning to kneel on a 36" diameter Pilates inflated ball, balancing with no contact with the ground.. well, i make a bit of contact, it makes a 'thud' sound..

 

Balance and moderation, understanding the relationship between Yin and Yang, these are fundamental elements of Taiji..

 

Be well..

[wudangspirit]

[Baguakid]

Ok, here's the deal, since this thread started about Bagua and Dr. Painter and not other IMAs or Neigong arts I would respond with this.

 

With in Bagua there are, from what I can see, two main theories, Open frame, and Closed frame. I say Open because, like BK Frantiz (sic) and othersI have seen on the web who seem to have a rounded, almost tai chi frame when circle walking (elbows sticking out, chest open). I still don't understand this method. Dr. Painter I believe is the same but Dale can correct me if I am wrong. The Gong Baotian lineage which I follow, we are "closed". Elbows are tucked and center protected, back is rounded and arms are extended forward which looks more like a western boxer than anything else. This method or style of circle walking is very demanding if done correctly so I don't see any need for weights unless it's very specific training exercises like I mentioned before. In addition, this type of training, one focus is to bring the blood and qi to the palms, which, over time, will cause the palm to thicken and become a weapon. Bagua is not Tai Chi and cannot be compared IMO. I've practiced Taiji of various flavors and it's just not the same.

 

Now, perhaps the "open" methods of bagua are not as demanding as the "closed frame" methods so maybe in this case they need to train with weights.