Is it hard to ignore the suffering?

[Eviander]

Is it the thought that causes one worries..or is there a innate need to express universal love and recognize the reality of suffering?

 

Opinions?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Suffering?

 

Be well...

[Vajrahridaya]

Is it the thought that causes one worries..or is there a innate need to express universal love and recognize the reality of suffering?

 

Opinions?

 

I cry daily, that helps. I mean... not out of sadness, but out of recognition and a sincere since of longing to want to help in whatever way.

 

Crying relieves one's own toxic sense of disconnection in my experience. It's somewhat of an enrapturing experience, blissful, yet humbling, compassionate, not sad. Recognizing and empathizing for sure.

 

It's a feeling I can't quite put my thumb on.

 

It feels very motherly and fatherly at the same time. That's it, like I want to be a comfort blanket. I don't always feel like it, but daily at least once or twice it happens in the course of a conversation with someone in life, or watching the news, or watching a movie, or TV show dealing with cancer or something? It's definitely a sense of universal love...

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[xenolith]

Myers-Briggs personality test: justice is more important than mercy...any Taoist knows that to be a false statement...even the Libras among us eh Michael (thelerner)?

 

Sadly not enough of us do...

Edited November 7, 2009 by xenolith

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

Suffering?

 

Be well...

 

Yeah, suffering. That state of mind that many accept into their life in order to pity themselves or to gain pity from others.

 

To suffer is a personal choice. To not suffer is an alternative choice.

 

The injustices in the world (many of which are what gives people the desire to suffer) is a totally different subject.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Realistically speaking, it is very hard to ignore suffering. Take a serious look around, and one can see plenty of lost and confused people. That is a form of suffering. Any form of un-ease is also suffering.

 

Of course one can deny its existence, and say one does not associate life with suffering. That is a cop out.

 

Suffering usually has implications that extends beyond oneself. Selfishly speaking, one may not be suffering, on the contrary, one may be totally enraptured in bliss, joy and contentment, but one's spouse, children and parents may be suffering. This is quite common among cult followers. Some guy goes off with the family savings to join some new-age hullabaloo that *shows* the way towards a life free of all the shite blah blah, he gets hooked, lined, and sinkered, and neglects all the life situations that he has been told is holding him back from freedom. Yes, he is 'happy', but at what price? And this scenario is only the tip of the iceberg...

 

Therefore, it is good to approach suffering from a wider perspective. This creates accountability and compassion. The above example may not relate directly to you, but you may know of friends, relatives, neighbors who may be struggling with drug or other major issues with a son or daughter, and its havoc. These are very real situations. If we engage with it, it will soften our hearts and make it kinder. If suffering was denied, there is no longer any use to develop a good heart, which is so essential if there is to be a way to heal this world.

 

Most of us are living fairly good lives. We have our comforts, and fair enough, it was gotten thru plenty of sweat and tears. We think we have paid the price and have a right to enjoy the fruits. Screw everyone else with with their problems and suffering and blah blah. What suffering? I am doing great, living a simple life, free to do anything I want when I want. Why bog myself down with the illusions of suffering, right? Well, wrong actually. Think about it. What is the ultimate purpose of spiritual cultivation? What is the major theme of all authentic paths? Is it narcissistically *Look out only for myself*? Or is it kindness, joy, compassion and love for OTHERS and oneself? Ignore this, and you are ignoring the fundamental causes for bringing about positive changes in the micro and macro world around us, beginning with ourselves, and our attitude to this *dirty* word called suffering.

 

Of course, if you still think suffering is a Buddhist creation and an illusion, good on you. But i believe there are those who sincerely want to make a difference, however small it may be. A good heart is above and beyond beliefs, creeds and religions. It is the universal creed of true humanity, one that connects heaven and earth, if that is what you want to attain.

 

Bless your kind hearts.

Edited November 7, 2009 by CowTao

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I am a prime advocate/activist for ending the causes of pain, hunger oppression, abuse, injustice, etc.. but, i'm not going to anyone's pity party..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

I am a prime advocate/activist for ending the causes of pain, hunger oppression, abuse, injustice, etc.. but, i'm not going to anyone's pity party..

 

Be well..

 

I will firstly second this thought/opinion.

 

But then ...

 

Of course, if you still think suffering is a Buddhist creation and an illusion, good on you. But i believe there are those of us who sincerely want to make a difference, however small it may be. A good heart is above and beyond beliefs, creeds and religions. It is the universal creed of true humanity.

 

I don't deny that there are many people who suffer. A majority of them are surely not Buddhists. Please do not misunderstand my opinion on the subject.

 

I give money to organizations who help people and other animals who are suffering. That is what I do. I also try to help anyone I have direct contact with understand that suffering is a psychological state of mind. Whenever I can I suggest courses of action they might take to eliminate their suffering.

 

But pity helps no one unless that pity is accompied by actual assistance, be it physical or emotional.

 

Buddhism does a good job at trying to teach people how to eliminate suffering. But if those who care do not take constructive action to help others eliminate the physical causes of the pain that leads to suffering then they are not doing all they could do.

 

To just talk about it doesn't help a whole lot.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Its good that suffering is acknowledged as a universal condition, and not exclusively a morbid buddhist creation.

 

Thank you.

 

"If there were less pity, and more empathy, there would be more warmth and kindness to spread around, and less selfishness and self-cherishing, which dries the heart." (Anon)

[Marblehead]

"If there were less pity, and more empathy, there would be more warmth and kindness to spread around, and less selfishness and self-cherishing, which dries the heart." (Anon)

 

And I will second this emotion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

hmm...

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

ooops.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Greetings..

 

I am a prime advocate/activist for ending the causes of pain, hunger oppression, abuse, injustice, etc.. but, i'm not going to anyone's pity party..

 

Be well..

 

It generally doesn't help when you get into the hole with the other person. It's better if you can leverage yourself outside of the hole and lend a helping and compassionate hand.

 

I agree with this "pity party" thing. My X-girlfriend would always complain about the most silly things and I would offer a perspective that could alleviate the psychological suffering immediately. Just a different outlook can totally change one's experience of reality. She would get mad and say... "I just want you to support and comfort me in my pain." I learned over the next few years that it was only after joining her pity party first, that she would open up to beneficial suggestions later.

 

So... sometimes it does take getting into the hole with that person, only physically of course, not psychologically, and then offer some help. But, everyone is different.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[funkytortoise]

http://freerice.com/index.php

 

an fun vocabulary (or foreign language, math, etc. if you change the settings) game that donates rice to the needy through sponsorship. this thread reminded me of it. i will now play it every time i'm online like i used to.

[nac]

To suffer is a personal choice. To not suffer is an alternative choice.

How cold. Do you really believe that's the only side of the coin?

[thelerner]

Myers-Briggs personality test: justice is more important than mercy...any Taoist knows that to be a false statement...even the Libras among us eh Michael (thelerner)?

 

Sadly not enough of us do...

Libra I am, though being on the cusp of scorpio hardens me (if you believe in that sort of thing, which I don't). To me the comparison sets up a false dichtomy, perfect for an I got you either way. Personally I know I must fight against the prejudices and lack of mercy that comes almost reflexively from my darkest most egoic side.

 

Reality presents us with situations too complex for such simplistic conditioning. I think you need a practice that includes the heart, and with an open heart comes a natural tendency for mercy.

 

Reading the newspapers on a daily basis has calcified aspects of my heart. Maybe of necessity, maybe not. One helps others when one can.

 

 

Michael

[Eviander]

Hmm.......

 

....

 

 

umm?? does anything even need an explanation...

[Marblehead]

How cold. Do you really believe that's the only side of the coin?

 

If you consider that I believe that suffering is psychological and a choice made out of free will then I say that what I said above is valid.

 

Perhaps it is cold but it is a cold hard fact, IMO.

 

What I don't understand is how some people allow themselves to be humiliated so grossly that they end up suffering in the first place.

 

Not everyone suffers. There are many who have great excess and never suffer. And the reason they have great excess is that they take from those who already do not have enough thereby causing more suffering.

 

It is not I who is cold for telling the truth. It are those who cause others to suffer who are the cold ones. And included in this are those who only talk about it but do nothing to eliminate their own suffering or the suffering of others.

 

Man is not a pretty animal at times. The subject of suffering is one of these 'not pretty' conditions. And it is nothing new, it has been going on for thousands of years.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

The injustices in the world (many of which are what gives people the desire to suffer) is a totally different subject.

 

I would be interested in a 4-5 paragraph long treatment of this one sentence.

[goldisheavy]

Is it the thought that causes one worries..or is there a innate need to express universal love and recognize the reality of suffering?

 

Opinions?

 

It's a complicated question. First of all, is suffering predicated on a mindset? I would say, yes it is. However, is it easy to change such mindset quickly to one that causes no suffering? I would say, no it is not. But is it possible to change it in that way, maybe not quickly and maybe not easily? Yes, it's possible.

 

To illustrate the situation, imagine this mental experiment. A person has a painful condition. And let's assume for the sake of experiment, this condition can only be cured if you climb to the top of the mount Everest, with minimal aid from others, then climb off the mountain and repeat this 10 times back to back. So the person suffers and we approach the person and say, "Well you know, if you climbed Everest 10 times, you'd be healed. Therefore we have no pity for you. Fuck you. You sit here and choose to wallow in your own self-pity, blah blah blah."

 

Is it easy to ignore another person's suffering? Or your own? Apparently it's easy to ignore other people's suffering. The world gives much evidence in support of this. This is how people have no problem enriching themselves at a great personal cost to others. But is it easy to ignore your own suffering? Again, the evidence points to the answer "no."

 

What about my own suffering? Well, I don't even try to ignore it. I actually think I should be paying attention to my suffering. So I can't even answer if it's easy or not to ignore my own suffering, because I've never attempted the feat and I doubt I ever will. I believe part of transcending suffering is paying attention to it, rather than ignoring it.

[Marblehead]

I would be interested in a 4-5 paragraph long treatment of this one sentence.

 

Hi GIH,

 

Yes, that would be an interesting subject to write on.

 

I won't get into any depth at the moment but just a light touch,

 

Perhaps we could look at nearly any nation in sub-Sahara Africa,

 

Or the caste system in India,

 

Or the USSR in the 1920s & 30s,

 

Or Germany in the late 30s & early 40s,

 

Or even in my great nation, the U. S. of A. and how it has and still is treating people of African and Native American descent.

 

The list goes on and on. We see nearly everywhere on this planet the rich and powerful taking from the average and less advantaged and restricting their options.

 

All this money that my government had to borrow and poured into the economy did nothing more than make the fat fatter and who is going to have to pay it back? The middle and lower class of Americans because the rich and powerful are to one who write the law saying who will pay taxes and how much they will have to pay and there are always loop-holes for the powerful and the rich to get around paying their fair share.

 

So all around the world we see examples of those who already have an excess taking from those who have too little. Lao Tzu wrote about this as did Chuang Tzu. It was happening back then, it is still happening today.

 

So who causes most of the suffering to humans in the world? I suggest that it is our fellow humans - those with the power and wealth.

 

Some nations are trying to make the playing field a little more level but there is still so very far to go.

 

Peace & Love!

[xenolith]

Libra I am, though being on the cusp of scorpio hardens me (if you believe in that sort of thing, which I don't). To me the comparison sets up a false dichtomy, perfect for an I got you either way. Personally I know I must fight against the prejudices and lack of mercy that comes almost reflexively from my darkest most egoic side.

 

Reality presents us with situations too complex for such simplistic conditioning. I think you need a practice that includes the heart, and with an open heart comes a natural tendency for mercy.

 

Reading the newspapers on a daily basis has calcified aspects of my heart. Maybe of necessity, maybe not. One helps others when one can.

Michael

 

Mercy, alleviation of the suffering of others, compassion...these are manifestations of Love, songs of the Heart that are the fabric of the transcendence of our societal personifications...which allow us to Live as the integral expressions of the Tao that we are.

 

Quit reading the newspaper.

[goldisheavy]

Hi GIH,

 

Yes, that would be an interesting subject to write on.

 

I won't get into any depth at the moment but just a light touch,

 

Perhaps we could look at nearly any nation in sub-Sahara Africa,

 

Or the caste system in India,

 

Or the USSR in the 1920s & 30s,

 

Or Germany in the late 30s & early 40s,

 

Or even in my great nation, the U. S. of A. and how it has and still is treating people of African and Native American descent.

 

The list goes on and on. We see nearly everywhere on this planet the rich and powerful taking from the average and less advantaged and restricting their options.

 

All this money that my government had to borrow and poured into the economy did nothing more than make the fat fatter and who is going to have to pay it back? The middle and lower class of Americans because the rich and powerful are to one who write the law saying who will pay taxes and how much they will have to pay and there are always loop-holes for the powerful and the rich to get around paying their fair share.

 

So all around the world we see examples of those who already have an excess taking from those who have too little. Lao Tzu wrote about this as did Chuang Tzu. It was happening back then, it is still happening today.

 

So who causes most of the suffering to humans in the world? I suggest that it is our fellow humans - those with the power and wealth.

 

Some nations are trying to make the playing field a little more level but there is still so very far to go.

 

Peace & Love!

 

This is pretty standard fare. The interesting bit in your sentence was your suggestion that injustices give people the desire to suffer. That's the part I was curious about. I see nothing controversial or interesting about the existence of injustices themselves.

 

Furthermore, I would also say that the poor, middle class and otherwise disadvantaged people are partially responsible for their own state. Not fully responsible, but they are partially responsible in that they passively acquiesce to the status quo and refuse to fight or stand up for anything better, if there is even the tiniest risk to their security. So the middle and lower classes trade security or illusion of security for freedom and partly they deserve the shit life they get. But partly they are innocent too. It's not a simple picture. I would lay 70% of responsibility on the socially dominant class, the upper class faux aristocracy (of course no one would admit to being an actual aristocrat in this day and age, but the attitudes and the sense of entitlement is still there and comparable to the aristocrats of the past times). But still, 30% of responsibility falls on the oppressed themselves. When oppressed people acquiesce, they partially deserve their lot.

Edited November 8, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Ohm-Nei]

life will come and go like the tide, universal forces will control the elements of our world, seek your enlightenment and problems will leave your universe.

 

Ask yourself, question everything you know, and ask yourself what else could possibly exist.

 

See your physical life, repel your spiritual life. Study what elements of your life cause such a repulsion.

 

Turn your negative polar energy of suffering into radiant vibrations of universal positive energy.

 

But first, you must find your own enlightenment. All you can do to speed up the process is believe that there is such a vibration that has been emitted for all of existence.

[Marblehead]

This is pretty standard fare. The interesting bit in your sentence was your suggestion that injustices give people the desire to suffer. That's the part I was curious about. I see nothing controversial or interesting about the existence of injustices themselves.

 

Furthermore, I would also say that the poor, middle class and otherwise disadvantaged people are partially responsible for their own state. Not fully responsible, but they are partially responsible in that they passively acquiesce to the status quo and refuse to fight or stand up for anything better, if there is even the tiniest risk to their security. So the middle and lower classes trade security or illusion of security for freedom and partly they deserve the shit life they get. But partly they are innocent too. It's not a simple picture. I would lay 70% of responsibility on the socially dominant class, the upper class faux aristocracy (of course no one would admit to being an actual aristocrat in this day and age, but the attitudes and the sense of entitlement is still there and comparable to the aristocrats of the past times). But still, 30% of responsibility falls on the oppressed themselves. When oppressed people acquiesce, they partially deserve their lot.

 

Hehehe. See? You did a pretty good job of clarifying that on your own.

 

I agree with what you said, especially this: ... but they are partially responsible in that they passively acquiesce to the status quo and refuse to fight or stand up for anything better ...

 

So rather than stand up for their rights as human beings they sulk and start feeling sorry for themselves. This will lead to suffering.

 

I have said so many times before regarding involvement in the government of a society: If you don't vote you have no right to complain.

 

I fell the same way about any aspect of a person's life. If you don't try to make things better then you have no right to complain about how bad things are. Sometimes we have to kick down the door before we can get in.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

life will come and go like the tide, universal forces will control the elements of our world, seek your enlightenment and problems will leave your universe.

 

Ask yourself, question everything you know, and ask yourself what else could possibly exist.

 

See your physical life, repel your spiritual life. Study what elements of your life cause such a repulsion.

 

Turn your negative polar energy of suffering into radiant vibrations of universal positive energy.

 

But first, you must find your own enlightenment. All you can do to speed up the process is believe that there is such a vibration that has been emitted for all of existence.

 

Although I would never have said it that way I think you did very well with what you said.

 

We must all accept responsibility for our own life.

 

Peace & Love!