Wisdom in Taoism

[nac]

Do Taoists believe in the concept of wisdom? If so, how is it understood?

[Marblehead]

Do Taoists believe in the concept of wisdom?

 

Yes.

 

If so, how is it understood?

 

I don't know.

 

Actually, Chuang Tzu spoke very harshly against the wisdon of the 'learned man' but spoke very highly of the wisdon of the man who lived according to the processes of nature.

 

He suggests that we unlearn the wisdon of the 'learned man' and return to the wisdon of our true nature.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Actually, Chuang Tzu spoke very harshly against the wisdon of the 'learned man' but spoke very highly of the wisdon of the man who lived according to the processes of nature.

Hi Marblehead: As i have been just 'lurking' lately, i am confused by the tendency toward 'wisdom competition' and personality invention being played-out as 'Taoism'..

 

My personal preferences, by no means a measure of Taoism, lean toward genuine curiosity about the whole process and its many interconnected 'parts'.. i enjoy the sincere investigation of the relationships and consequences that we experience as Life.. it seems to me that Life is fully present, right here, right now.. that this is a temporary reality for our individualized experiences, but.. it is also a fundamental aspect of the evolving 'process'.. my experiences have revealed that Life is a magnificent relationship between the 'source' as a singularity and the 'source' as multiplicity.. this relationship functions most effectively when the physical/local aspect of 'source' fully engages/embraces its physicallity.. this doesn't imply rejecting the Unity and wholeness, but.. bringing them into balance, that Life, when embraced with the understanding of its relationship with the eternal process of an evolving source, becomes a truly profound and magnificent experience.. even when it sucks.. because this is a temporary reality, but.. a very real 'reality'..

 

Anyway, something seems 'insincere' about much of the 'mind-play' passed-off as something supported by Taoist Philosophy.. i see very little understanding of how wu wei applies to the experience of living well.. conversely, i am also compelled to accept 'wisdom competition' and personality invention as no less Tao than each Spring's rebirth of life.. so, i'll have to accept the conflicting perceptions as idiosyncracies of personal preferences.. hmm, something to ponder..

 

Be well..

[nac]

Thanks. A more subjective question: Would you describe Taoism as conservative? And if you have the time, in what sense?

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

Hi Marblehead: As i have been just 'lurking' lately, i am confused by the tendency toward 'wisdom competition' and personality invention being played-out as 'Taoism'..

 

Hi TzuJanLi,

 

Excellent thoughts and posts.

 

I would have to write a book in order to respond properly to what you said but I won't. Hehehe.

 

Chuang Tzu said somewhere (I paraphrase) "Where is the one who teaches without words? I would like to speak with him."

 

Interesting too how your post relates to the new "Butterfly" thread and the concept of "The Transformation of Things".

 

But yes, for most of us, when we think we know something we want to share it with others (for whatever the reason). This will naturally lead to competition of 'wisdom'. I think that this will always happen whenever we try to express our understandings with words. (Of course, the best way for us to express our understands is to live according to them.)

 

And I agree that to speak only of 'wu wei' (doing nothing) without speaking of 'wei wu wei' (doing what needs be done) is missing half of the concept.

 

And I do, whenever possible, speak to the concept of living in both 'yo' (manifest reality) and 'wu' (mystery or the spiritual) simultaneously. That is, we are physical beings born out of the spiritual so I think it is important that we remain rooted in the spiritual but yet live in the manifest. I think that this is as close to Tao as we can get while we are still alive.

 

Wisdom? Knowing how to live one's life to the fullest while being at peace with one's Self.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Thanks. A more subjective question: Would you describe Taoism as conservative?

 

Yes. We are constantly told to avoid excess.

 

And if you have the time, in what sense?

 

Time? I have the rest of my life to get this done. Hehehe.

 

In what sense? Let's look to nature.

 

A bird opens its beak and speaks; then it closes its beak. It doesn't keep chirping all day long.

 

The raging winds do not last a long time. The winds blow to achieve a purpose then they return to silence or to a light breeze.

 

Our natural state is that of rest. We are inspired to do something, we do what needs be done then we return to the state of rest. In doing so we acquire the energy and strength for the next inspiration to do something.

 

Conservation is key to being able to fully respond to whatever life throws at us. If we are constantly doing we decrease our strength and energy to a state were we are unable to respond to conditions properly and fully.

 

Eating is another example. We eat enough to provide our body with the energy it needs but not so much so that it restricts our ability to respond efficiently to our challenges in life. If we eat too much we become slow and sluggish; if we eat too little we don't have the strength and energy to respond properly.

 

The middle path is best. (But yes, I sometimes enjoy walking the side paths and even walking where no one has walked before but this is not being conservative although it does add spice to my life.)

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

Wisdom...

 

"It is when you seek it that you lose it.

You cannot take hold of it, nor can you get rid of it;

While you can do neither, it goes on its own way.

You remain silent, and it speaks. You speak, and it goes silent."

 

In the words of Alan Watts.. " If I am Reality, I cannot grasp it. The life, the Tao, which is the experience of this and all moments, I can neither escape nor accept. Every attempt to escape or to accept life, is as much a vicious circle, as plain an absurdity as trying to know knowledge, to feel feeling, or to burn fire."

 

He who reaches out in vain attempt to attain wisdom is only clutching at his own hands. Do not seek that which you have never lost. Dont suffocate from holding your own breath. The knower is not separate from his knowledge.

 

Buddha said there is no way to happiness; Happiness is the way. Similarly, it can be be said that there is no way to wisdom, for wisdom, in itself, is the way.

 

 

 

So what is Wisdom? Can you study for it? No. Can you empty your mind and then be wiser for it? No. Would leaving all the cares of the world and be a hermit make you wiser? No. Is a professor wiser than a garbage-collector? No. Can you become wiser by doing all kinds of meditation and ascetic practices? No. Would abstaining from sex and being celibate make you wiser? No. Would being a vegetarian lead to wisdom? No. Would developing Qi, psychic healing abilities, 4th or 5th dimensional vision, ESP, staring goats to death , fire in the belly etc. lead to more wisdom? No. Would sitting in full lotus and walking on hot coals do it? No. All these activities would be transformational, and some are beneficial, to say the least. But they would not necessarily induce or increase wisdom. In a sense, wisdom to me means that even if you dont get the results you are after, its okay, you are not any worse without it, nor any better for it.

 

Wisdom is not a *doing*, and its not even an *accepting* -- It is an allowing. Allow for those times even when life sucks (as TzuJanLi aptly mentioned..) with the knowing that it will change, and then allow for that change. Allowing happens only when one is wholeheartedly engaging with life and all its different moods and facets. It implies empowering oneself to find, and then negotiate as much as possible, a path of least resistance, and doing what needs to be done to remain on that path. If you fall off, thats okay too. Dust yourself off, and take another step. Its fine to get hit on the head once, but to let it happen twice is wisdom telling you to look for a different path..

 

I believe wisdom to be a quality of psychological or spiritual relationship between man and his experiences. When this relationship is harmonious and without struggle, the experiences set man free; When it is chaotic and discordant, thats when his experiences bind him.

 

To end, allow me to leave with this thought: "Some look for Truth in creeds and forms and rules; Some search for answers and Dogmas and doubts in schools, but from behind the Veil a Voice proclaims, Your road lies neither here nor there, O fools!"

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Marblehead: Your 'Sage and Chair' analogy/story is spot on.. it is my understandings that Life is experienced through the physical focus of the Consciousness/Awareness individualized perception.. which is to suggest that the direction or 'flow' of the process is from the spiritual (non-local) into the physical (local).. then, as we can plainly observe, the physical returns to the spiritual.. there seems to be a consistency and an observable/experiencable continuum to the physical aspect of the Cosmos.. so, i am confused when i encounter others that reject this physical experience as illusory or not 'real'.. i am amused as some people construct 'imaginary chairs' while fully aware they can't actually sit in them.. the 'direction/flow' suggests that the spiritual/energetic existence 'intends' the physical experience, but.. without control, manipulation, or limitation.. it seems contrary to the direction/flow to focus beyond a healthy balance on the spiritual to the exclusion or detriment of the physical.. we are manifested as physical beings for a very short interval, it is my understanding that we each contribute to the evolving Human Experience, which continues beyond our brief individualized manifestation.. to the degree we are capable of experiencing Clarity, experiencing the spiritual/non-local aspects of our existence, the 'wisdom' indicated by the direction/flow is to enhance the evolving Human Experience.. that is to suggest that Life is for Living, embracing fully.. it, too, will pass.. and i will have no regrets (and the scars to prove it)..

 

There is a quote i really like.. but, it uses terminology that, if understood appropriately, won't detract too much from the message: "The eyes through which i see "God", are the same eyes through which "God" sees me".. hugely profound IF you can let-go of the 'God' baggage..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Nice post CowTao.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hi TzuJanLi. Nice post also.

 

You mentioned something I would like to highlight. " ... evolving Human Experience ... "

 

Although I have not spoken of this here in any thread I think it is a very important consideration when speaking to the subject of 'the meaning of life'.

 

Yes, we are a part of that as well as a part of the evolving process of Tao.

 

And I agree with you that we should not try speaking only of the spiritual because we are living in the manifest at the moment. There needs be a sweet harmony between the two states of being.

 

I also like the way you spoke of the cycle between the mystery (spiritual) to the manifest (physical) and back to the mystery (spiritual). This is consistent with the Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles.

 

Peace & Love!

[Encephalon]

[Marblehead]

[TzuJanLi]

[Marblehead]

I will disagree as to Capra's interpretation.. 'Logic and reasoning' are the tools we use to discern, Taoists are no different..

 

Thanks. That made me feel better. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Yes.

I don't know.

 

Actually, Chuang Tzu spoke very harshly against the wisdon of the 'learned man' but spoke very highly of the wisdon of the man who lived according to the processes of nature.

 

He suggests that we unlearn the wisdon of the 'learned man' and return to the wisdon of our true nature.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I'm with him 110%... That is really true.

[nac]

Thanks, all.

 

Thus they developed an attitude which was essentially scientific and only their deep mistrust in the analytic method prevented them from constructing proper scientific theories.

Hopefully they wouldn't have agreed with Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates in Clouds.

[Encephalon]

Forgive me for repeating this ad nauseum, but Deng Ming-Dao says that learning "should progress from simplicity to complexity, and then reverse back to simplicity." What this means to me is that we should honor our curiosity for what it is, an impulse of the spirit, study enough to avoid delusion, but return to a state of simplicity. For a modern learned person, I see no way around formal studies, but simplifying your mental universe becomes essential in the final analysis.

 

A solid grasp of anatomy and ecology prepares you for this end, IMHO.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Blasto

[nac]

What does Taoism teach on the subject of self-mastery?

[Marblehead]

Forgive me for repeating this ad nauseum, but Deng Ming-Dao says that learning "should progress from simplicity to complexity, and then reverse back to simplicity." What this means to me is that we should honor our curiosity for what it is, an impulse of the spirit, study enough to avoid delusion, but return to a state of simplicity. For a modern learned person, I see no way around formal studies, but simplifying your mental universe becomes essential in the final analysis.

 

 

Hi Blasto,

 

I changed one word in the above and now totally agree with it.

 

Peace & Love!

[Encephalon]

Hi Blasto,

 

I changed one word in the above and now totally agree with it.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yer right. thanx.

 

What does Taoism teach on the subject of self-mastery?

 

It teaches everything on the subject of self-mastery!! May I humbly request that we all crack open a book now and then before submitting questions? Not that it's a hassle to answer honest questions, but that you open yourself up to erroneous info (the Net is known for misinformation here and there). "Scholar/Warrior" by Deng Ming-Dao is a great start.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Scholar-Warrior-Intr...e/dp/0062502328

[nac]

It teaches everything on the subject of self-mastery!! May I humbly request that we all crack open a book now and then before submitting questions? Not that it's a hassle to answer honest questions, but that you open yourself up to erroneous info (the Net is known for misinformation here and there). "Scholar/Warrior" by Deng Ming-Dao is a great start.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Scholar-Warrior-Intr...e/dp/0062502328

Thanks for the recommendation.

[Marblehead]

What does Taoism teach on the subject of self-mastery?

 

Hi Nac,

 

Yeah, like Blasto said, Taoism is based in the concept of self-mastery. And that is why I speak to the concept of knowing our capabilities and capacities. And with this too is why I speak often of free will. If we don''t like an aspect of our self we can always change it (within physical limitations, of course).

 

Peace & Love!

[Encephalon]

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

What's with the Milton Friedman noise? Has the financial meltdown of 2009 not figured in your assessment of his ideas? Just about everyone else is dancing on his grave, for chrissakes.