Balance and What is really needed in cultivation?

[Zenshiite]

Ah, very good.

We could intellectually dissect any particular thing for 10,000 years and not arrive at the truth of experiencing that thing.

 

 

Perhaps 'intellect' is not necessarily the rational faculty, strictly speaking. Or rather, the rational faculty is a mere surface manifestation of the Intellect which is of a higher order. Which, according to Plato it indeed is. The same is true of the Intellect in Islamic mysticism, for instance. I'm wondering what the Taoist equivalent would be... because I don't think the intellectus/nous of the Greeks or the 'aql of the Qur'an, Muhammad and 'Ali is the same as the way as you're using "intellect" here. Seems to me you're using "intellect" in the way that the Greeks would've used dianoia and the Latin ratio.

 

Just a thought.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Zenshiite

[C T]

Your concept of nature is very romantacized. Nature is any experience, it doesn't matter whether you are among trees or on concrete. But one can obviously be quieter and less bothersome than the other.

Right, better or formal "education" has nothing to do with any of this when we talk about the intellect. When I mention intellect, I mean analysis and inquiry instead of exercises such as following the breath, mantras, asanas, etc.

Yes, the mind will always grasp and create a duality of observed and observer. Absence of mind happens only relative to the presence of mind. Intellect is necessary to see into experience, and it need not be in the form of words per se, but the conscious effort to analyze must be there.

Well, i still maintain that too much analysis is counter-productive, as intelligence has

never been an exclusive pre-requisite for 'knowing' things as they are. IMO, analysis

promote dullness and inaction, as it slows down reaction. When the mind is used to

analysis, it tends to lose the reactive edge, and this could be detrimental in instances

where instant action is needed, which could mean the difference between life or death

sometimes. Such kinds of imaginary situations could happen at any time, and when they

do, that is what i meant by the value of directly seeing into the nature of things.

 

If a man lives simply and in accordance with his needs and his environment, and be

mindfully attentive and in tune with nature, where is this need for analytical acumen?

If you have a belly ache, it does not require much analyzing (i know, probably another

romanticized example). When you see an oncoming vehicle, you just act, without the need

to think about the consequences of inaction. In the same manner, thoughts arise, and are

immediately liberated, and the Mind returns to stillness, always potent, and aware, like

a tiger focussed on its prey, always ready to pounce, but never needing to. This is the fruit

of practicing clear-seeing, for without it, the 'tiger' of the Mind will pounce here, there and

everywhere, losing much valuable energy in the process. Now, if this Mind can rest in the

state of being like a crouching tiger, or a drawn bow, just think how potent such a Mind

is, and when this state of Mind is consciously activated at will, now and then, to achieve

your aims, just think how much more powerful such a Mind is, one that is sharp and

always clear, not dulled by overstudy and analytical overindulgence.

 

I am not disagreeing that thinking is important. Of course its vital, for the effective functioning

of mundane pursuits, but IMO, its a two-edged blade, and more often than not, becomes

a hindrance to direct perception, which to me means to see things without the filters and

lenses of habitual conditioning.

 

I am not contradicting your views here Lucky7, merely offering an alternative opinion, thats

all. Thanks.

Edited November 18, 2009 by CowTao

[fiveelementtao]

Your mind/brain is your worst enemy, and it is very difficult for a person to progress until they realize that. It is only when a person takes the mind out of the equation, learns that the mind has been controlling them like a slave, preventing from realization of the true self; it is only then that a person can awaken.

 

BRAVO! Very well put.

 

I would add that the mind is like a dog. Some breeds are very smart and will completely take control if the owner is weak. Dogs WANT to find the alpha that will take control of the pack. If the Spirit is not in control or does not become the alpha, the mind/ego will take over because there is a leadership vacuum. BUT, if the spirit is in control the mind will happily OBEY the spirit. The mind is directly connected to EGO. Both are creations of limited reality. They are necessary for human functioning but they are only TOOLS of the spirit to operate in limited creation. It is necessary to have mind/ego to function in this limited world. But they have NO understanding of infinity. They are NOT infinite and CANNOT comprehend infinite reality. So, to try to comprehend infinity with limited Mind/ego is a total waste of time and is merely an exercise in EGO and is always fear based.

 

When the Spirit is in control (Alpha) the mind does not try to understand infinity it will recede when one goes beyond the confines of three dimensions. But if the mind is alpha, it will stop the spirit from experiencing beyond the three dimensions by getting bogged down in intellectual hair splitting. This is a protective tactic of the ego/mid to keep itself from being annhilated by the experience of Infinity. If one is trying to understand infinity through intellectual analysis instead of direct experience, the ego becomes a shield to protect the mind from the enormity of infinity. To experience Infinity one must be willing to die and this is terrifying to the mind. and so, to protect itself from death it uses the ego to bolster itself with the idea that simply through intellect, the universe can be comprehended.

 

So, when I read posts of people claiming "enlightenment" because of their intellectual rambling what I hear is an ego in fear of annihilation and suppressing the spirit.

 

This is the biggest hurdle I have with my spirit fighting students. If one cannot let go of the mind, the art is simply an internal martial art and the power is limited. If one can let go of the mind and experience the 10 dimensions of the Universe, THEN it becomes spirit fighting and the power is magnified thousands of times and one can channel the infinite power of the Universe. But there is always a death experience before that can happen... and it can be very frightening...

 

Bottom line is... if it can't be backed up with direct experience it is all talk...

[Lucky7Strikes]

 

I like the irony here.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[gendao]

Edited November 18, 2009 by vortex

[fiveelementtao]

So how did you guys get past your ego, mind & thoughts and into "infinite-eternal-awareness-love-bliss?"

 

Well, I myself haven't gotten past anything. I am as limited, egotistical and human as anyone.

for example, my ego is screaming at me like crazy right now to respond to lucky7's jab at me and hit back. But that is L7's experience of my post, if I react to it, I will be dragged down into my ego and get trapped in a cycle of verbal competition and I will not happy. So, I am seeking to humble myself and tell myself, "That is his/her perspective and they have a right to it. Their opinion (whether right or wrong) doesn't change anything. It's OK if others disagree with my experience...

 

However, I have realized for myself that the mind is only good for functioning on the earth plane. It does not help me in spiritual pursuits.

 

So, for ME, I seek to accept my ego and listen to it and decide if what it is telling me is something I need to act on. If not, I accept the feeling or discomfort and ACT from my spirit.

 

So, in short, I haven't gotten PAST my ego, I seek to integrate it and allow it it's function which is to help me survive on the earth plane. My ego is my friend and servant and I need it... It's not an either/or proposition. It is a matter of function. I have not mastered it AT ALL. But it is an ongoing process that I seek to relax into....

[Ya Mu]

BRAVO! Very well put.

 

I would add that the mind is like a dog. Some breeds are very smart and will completely take control if the owner is weak. Dogs WANT to find the alpha that will take control of the pack. If the Spirit is not in control or does not become the alpha, the mind/ego will take over because there is a leadership vacuum. BUT, if the spirit is in control the mind will happily OBEY the spirit. The mind is directly connected to EGO. Both are creations of limited reality. They are necessary for human functioning but they are only TOOLS of the spirit to operate in limited creation. It is necessary to have mind/ego to function in this limited world. But they have NO understanding of infinity. They are NOT infinite and CANNOT comprehend infinite reality. So, to try to comprehend infinity with limited Mind/ego is a total waste of time and is merely an exercise in EGO and is always fear based.

 

When the Spirit is in control (Alpha) the mind does not try to understand infinity it will recede when one goes beyond the confines of three dimensions. But if the mind is alpha, it will stop the spirit from experiencing beyond the three dimensions by getting bogged down in intellectual hair splitting. This is a protective tactic of the ego/mid to keep itself from being annhilated by the experience of Infinity. If one is trying to understand infinity through intellectual analysis instead of direct experience, the ego becomes a shield to protect the mind from the enormity of infinity. To experience Infinity one must be willing to die and this is terrifying to the mind. and so, to protect itself from death it uses the ego to bolster itself with the idea that simply through intellect, the universe can be comprehended.

 

So, when I read posts of people claiming "enlightenment" because of their intellectual rambling what I hear is an ego in fear of annihilation and suppressing the spirit.

 

This is the biggest hurdle I have with my spirit fighting students. If one cannot let go of the mind, the art is simply an internal martial art and the power is limited. If one can let go of the mind and experience the 10 dimensions of the Universe, THEN it becomes spirit fighting and the power is magnified thousands of times and one can channel the infinite power of the Universe. But there is always a death experience before that can happen... and it can be very frightening...

 

Bottom line is... if it can't be backed up with direct experience it is all talk...

 

I think this is a realization to which we all have to eventually arrive. But it is a realization that is very threatening to anyone that has not yet realized the mind has made a slave of us (all of us) by limiting us to this world and that the mind is attempting utmost to prevent this realization; the mind does not like this realization at all.

 

I think one of the misunderstandings is when we say this people may think we are downplaying the power of the mind. Not true. I know I am saying that the mind is SO POWERFUL, it has become our worst enemy in the realization that we are multidimensional beings and the real connection/knowledge of our true self. When we do make that realization the mind then becomes a powerful slave for the real multidimensional self for operations in this world/dimension.

 

 

 

So how did you guys get past your ego, mind & thoughts and into "infinite-eternal-awareness-love-bliss?"

 

You use the ego and the mind as valuable tools; you do not cast them aside. Anyone that claims they have reached the highest level is lying - there are always higher levels. One learns to enslave the mind to the true/real you by dampening thoughts, or rather non-indulgence of thoughts. Remember me telling of the brain wave/sleep lab experience? Brain waves slowed through the first 3 levels of sleep in 3 minutes while standing awake? Practice is what accomplishes this as well as multidimensional realization/awareness.

[宁]

Michael Win and Mantak Chia were instrumental in teaching these home baked retention methods. Both have publicly retracted their support for their earlier teachings and have admitted that these practices are physically harmful.

 

So what does succeeding in these home baked practices make us, the ones that have success with it?

I have friends that study daoism with certified masters from China, and I have friends that study at home (who received both traditional and 'modern' transmissions). The ones that go to China have given up, because they think that the master is too far away, and the training too demanding. The other ones continued practicing, using nothing more and nothing less than common sense, and a good dose of... wisdom, for lack of a more humble word. Some of them tried more than 15 systems for integrating sexuality with spirituality, and agreed that Master Chia's techniques are the most effective... Am I to believe their experience is an illusion? What about mine?

The teachings and the techniques cannot do anything by themselves, they are only seeds, and the people are the ground in which they may grow.

...The irony of the situation is that the ones that are silly enough to believe you are better off believing you. No matter how public or available or secure a system is, there seems to be just a small fraction that really 'get' what it is about... sad but true... I still don't get it...

- Master Chia's system is more than just sexual practice (sexual gongfu covers just a small percent)

- thousands of people worldwide swear by the practices to be good, healing and changing their lives for the better

- the system is the most easy, available, complete and secure, of all the systems developed in the west. many of the systems in the west borrowed heavily from it to cover alot of missing gaps... and many that criticize it know too little about it...

- still people look elsewhere... but what they CAN do, is just in their reach.

The mind with which you start practicing, the goals, the character, the attitude, makes more than half of the practice...

Last week, at the Kan and Li workshop in Bucharest, Master Chia said that the teaching is subtle, and really there are very few that really get it, even thou it's very widely spread. The issue is the mindset... Arrogance, rebellion, selfish-ness, lack of grounding, free-thinking poorely understood.

 

 

 

 

PS: my reply to 5ET isn't an off-topic, is it? I just realized I wrote quite a bit about what I think we should also pay attention in cultivation

[fiveelementtao]

Little1

You bring up a good point. Much of what Chia teaches is very effective. The half-baked techinques i refer to are the "million dollar point" using your fingers to retain semen etc... Chi and Winn both have retracted that teaching and admit they are dangerous...

However, you are cloaking your response as a question. You really aren't interested in my response. you are making a statement. I have no interest in arguing with you. If you're experience is real, then why bait me into a fight.

If you simply state your experience, I will respect it.

I can have my opinion while you can have your experience. they don't have to agree. That is the beauty of a holographic universe.

If you truly have mastered the art, then I say, teach it...

Edited November 18, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Ya Mu]

So what does succeeding in these home baked practices make us, the ones that have success with it?

I have friends that study daoism with certified masters from China, and I have friends that study at home (who received both traditional and 'modern' transmissions). The ones that go to China have given up, because they think that the master is too far away, and the training too demanding. The other ones continued practicing, using nothing more and nothing less than common sense, and a good dose of... wisdom, for lack of a more humble word. Some of them tried more than 15 systems for integrating sexuality with spirituality, and agreed that Master Chia's techniques are the most effective... Am I to believe their experience is an illusion? What about mine?

The teachings and the techniques cannot do anything by themselves, they are only seeds, and the people are the ground in which they may grow.

...The irony of the situation is that the ones that are silly enough to believe you are better off believing you. No matter how public or available or secure a system is, there seems to be just a small fraction that really 'get' what it is about... sad but true... I still don't get it...

- Master Chia's system is more than just sexual practice (sexual gongfu covers just a small percent)

- thousands of people worldwide swear by the practices to be good, healing and changing their lives for the better

- the system is the most easy, available, complete and secure, of all the systems developed in the west. many of the systems in the west borrowed heavily from it to cover alot of missing gaps... and many that criticize it know too little about it...

- still people look elsewhere... but what they CAN do, is just in their reach.

The mind with which you start practicing, the goals, the character, the attitude, makes more than half of the practice...

Last week, at the Kan and Li workshop in Bucharest, Master Chia said that the teaching is subtle, and really there are very few that really get it, even thou it's very widely spread. The issue is the mindset... Arrogance, rebellion, selfish-ness, lack of grounding, free-thinking poorely understood.

PS: my reply to 5ET isn't an off-topic, is it? I just realized I wrote quite a bit about what I think we should also pay attention in cultivation

 

I don't think your reply is off topic. . I would like to address what you are saying.

 

Rather than try to refute what you are saying, I would rather put the response in terms of my experience and to ask you some questions which may/may not have any meanings.

 

I actually tried Chia's system for several years. Success or failure? It depends on what is meant by that. Was I successful in birth control? yes. Was it successful in my awareness/health increase? Not in my opinion. And, I did and still do work on men in clinic that have attempted this technique and gained many health problems from practicing it. I do not like or appreciate this tehnique for this reason.

 

Master Wang, when asked about this technique, said he was very familiar with it and that it was a technique developed strictly for birth control. No "cultivation" whatsoever associated with it. And from my experience, what I concluded about Chia's earlier work, was that he was a scholar who didn't know very much at all about the practical side of things. Researched a bunch of stuff, published it and wham bam INSTANT western Taoist master that steered the whole western world on a course of mostly non practical applications. SO MANY fell for all that stuff. To his credit, I do think he now has some experience of practice to which he can help others.

 

Now, why do you feel it worked/still works for you. Is it your ONLY practice? If so, then that is irrefutable evidence to you that it works. But I do not believe it is your only practice. Could it be that you have mastered birth control and the practice itself has nothing whatsoever to do with your awareness/health progress? Could it be because of "who you are" and other practices that you approached with sincerity/sobriety and gongfu have accomplished your progress? Or even this technique because of who you are and sincere approach? I would be willing to bet this has a lot to do with it. By who you are I mean how much energy you brought with you to this world and how much you progressed in other lifetimes and what your destiny is.

 

For myself, when Master Wang taught me the High Level sexual transmutation method (after asking about Chia's method) I found such a profound difference (and still do) in the techniques. The High Level method is called that because it shifts a person (couple, actually) dimensionally where the male recaptures not only what he "lost" energetically but the energy is transmuted enough that the couple are actually thrown into a separate energy awareness where energy pulled in is a total different and higher quality of energy. The net result is astounding, the sky opens up to another world with a different star system with a different and much higher quality/density of energy. And much gain in energy and awareness is realized.

 

Far be it from me to attempt to deny your experiences for they are yours. Just thought I would add mine and present alternative answers to the question you raise.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ya Mu

[Marblehead]

So how did you guys get past your ego, mind & thoughts and into "infinite-eternal-awareness-love-bliss?"

 

I failed miserably and that is why I am still a Taoist and not a Buddhist.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Have I mentioned that I prefer harmony over balance?

 

Peace & Love!

[宁]

@Ya Mu,

 

The million dollar point is the first stage of the first level of healing love. The first level has five stages. It is only after getting to level two, and mostly after getting to level three, that the cultivation of awareness really comes into play. It was deviced this way because you first need some juice to start with. There are nine levels of healing love, I'm playing with level three at the moment, and I think I'll be stuck here for a couple of years or so. So the practice develops gradually. What you describe your master taught you, it's still in the formulas... Thanks for sharing.

 

@5ET

 

I'm not teaching because I don't have enough patience to do it:) I'm working on that at the moment, if I skip it, I won't be able to move further. My favourite practice still, is Meditation and Taiji, and i use healing love as a means to integrate sexuality, that's all. Another concern regarding teaching, is that you need to be a certificate practicioner in order to do it. That means going to Tao Garden for a couple of weeks and passing examinations, not doable for me in the near future. Other priorities. Regarding the practice, I can only speak for myself, yet that doesn't mean it works only for me. It's just that the guys/girls that have good success with it don't go around on forums bragging about it.