Laughing at suffering

[Smile]

One who sees clearly, does nothing. Doing nothing, everything is done. The Mind no longer wants to escape from, or run to, unpleasantness or pleasantness. Everything arise with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we create the world, the Buddha says. Is the butterfly cruel by insisting on the death of the caterpillar in order that it may come to life? Are they two separate entities? Or are they one? Seeing this clearly, the mind resides nowhere. What is there to do, but smile?

So you basically saying you would do nothing but smile if you encounter a half dead being while being tortured?

[doc benway]

That video makes me sad.

Human cruelty is as boundless as human compassion.

[Aetherous]

It's not attainment or wisdom to become so lost in your own mental masturbation that you actually lose all sense of compassion.

 

Spouting off concepts, and intellectually understanding them, is nothing. Forsaking your own innate sense of right and wrong for belief in those concepts is the opposite of progress.

[That Guy]

this is fucked up, just like part of humanity is.

 

For you sissies who turn a blind eye, well thats good, be an ignorant coward. However, this is your race, this is your planet, this is your world, might be good to have an idea of whats really here, instead of out there where your mind is.

Now i m gonna go imagine imagine his world is perfect and it has everything, so dont worry, it will be ok by tomorrow morning when I wake up to go for a ride on a unicorn while accompanied by elves and fairies along the rainbow, since we re gonna meet our leprechaun friend on the other end.

 

-----

 

"Please understand what 'transcending' normal, habitual responses are. This image is a perfect opportunity

to realize that the ultimate nature of Reality do not contain good or bad, ugly or beautiful, cruel or kind. All

is contained within this Reality, empty of conceptual duality. When one rises, the other rises, and when one subsides,

so does the other. Shunya."

 

GTFO of here! Thats becming an empty shell, thats what. You might as well be dead if thats how you see things (i dont mean you Shunya just a manner of speaking). If you re not interacting or responding to the world around you, that means you re as good as dead, the world wouldnt change in any way if you were around or not because you re just there, you just are, you just sit around and watch until you come to die and realize maybe you should have played a part emotinally and physically, becaause then maybe you could have not watched some random outcome, but made the outcome something you d like to see. Cowards!

 

i m loggin off, this site is frustrating!!

[C T]

So you basically saying you would do nothing but smile if you encounter a half dead being while being tortured?

 

 

If action be needed, i would look into my own mind, and understand deeply what the term 'half dead being' and the word 'torture' really means, and to ask myself, if these concepts no longer bind me to form judgements and emotional responses based on preconceived notions, would that not uncloud and unburden the Mind? So even in the face of the the most extreme hardship and cruelty, if I am able to remain mentally clear, and without any taint of delusion, would that not allow me to then act appropriately, instead of re-acting out of sheer blindness and confusion?

 

What would you do, if i may ask?

[Smile]

So even in the face of the the most extreme hardship and cruelty, if I am able to remain mentally clear, and without any taint of delusion, would that not allow me to then act appropriately, instead of re-acting out of sheer blindness and confusion?

Who said anything about reacting or acting with the mind tainted with delusion? My question was: what would you do if you encountered it in real life? Your first answer was "nothing/just smile" and then followed up with "if my mind is clear, I would act appropriately". Non-answers are fine with me.

 

What would you do, if i may ask?

I would kill the fish, of course.

[Marblehead]

 

Problems arise when this singular wholeness is rejected as a manifestation of Reality. lt will then appear as though there are cruel deeds and kind deeds, (as if these are two separate, conflicting realities), but if this same wholeness is embraced fully, then one will see that what we deem as just and moral deeds, are but a reflection of that which we deem as deeds that are immoral and unjust. So are we to live in denial of one, to push aside and to suppress the darker aspect, and just keep sight of the other brighter aspect? To put this another way, are we merely fooling ourselves that by just negating the dark we will live in the bright, or perhaps just focussing on the bright will make the dark less dark? My understanding of the Taoist philosophy tells me this is a misconception, but i stand to be corrected, of course.

 

 

Very nice (and long, hehehe) response.

 

I will speak only to this paragraph.

 

Yes, we view the universe in dualistic terms. That is the way our brain works. Our individual, personal moral views (Virtue) will determine what we view as 'good' and 'evil'. What's that saying? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I cannot view the manifest from a non-dualistic state. I must view it in dualistic terms. Therefore there will be things that are either good or bad. Even here in my world I could do things that I would consider to be bad. So I don't do those things. There are things that I would consider to be good - I do those things.

 

No, we should not deny the negatives. But I suggest that we do not have to allow them into our life (in the most part). I still have negative thoughts now and then, especially when I read the news. And I always regret it alter. If I didn't read the news I would not have had that negative thought.

 

Yes, my life is brighter when I keep the darkness out. When I go outside to look at the roses I never intentionally poke my finger on the thorns - therefore I have only the beauty and none of the ugly.

 

I know there is cruelity in the world. I can do very little to change any of it. If I think about it all the time I become depressed then I would have to become a Buddhist in order to be liberated from my suffering. But, I can just ignore all that I can do nothing about and I don't suffer therefore I don't need to be liberated.

 

Yes, in my world (that is, on my property) I have my delusions that lead me to think that everything is just fine. This allows me to be contented, happy, and at peace with myself. When I leave my world I leave my delusions at home and I am able to properly interact with the external world.

 

And I do not allow disruptive people into my world (on my property). And because no disruptive people come into my world I do not see the negatives they cause. My cats don't even kill lizards anymore because I used to get in their case whenever they did it. (But I don't yell at the lizards for eating bugs and ants.) My cats don't bother the fish or the frogs either.

 

I suggest that it is possible to have peace without war and it is possible to have beautiful without ugliness. All it takes is an honest effort to make the world that way. (Yeah, a lot of people would have to be killed before that could become a reality. But it is illegal to kill them.)

 

Like Chuang Tzu said (paraphrased): Leave me (a turtle) alone to drag my tail in the mud.

 

Peace & Love!

[Inedible]

One who sees clearly, does nothing. Doing nothing, everything is done. The Mind no longer wants to escape from, or run to, unpleasantness or pleasantness. Everything arise with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we create the world, the Buddha says. Is the butterfly cruel by insisting on the death of the caterpillar in order that it may come to life? Are they two separate entities? Or are they one? Seeing this clearly, the mind resides nowhere. What is there to do, but smile?

 

Don't lie to us. You can't even pass up this thread without acting in the form of writing responses. I know you'd kill the fish to put it out of its misery and then you'd stab the chef with those chopsticks. On the other hand I do believe you'd smile while you did it.

[Smile]

Hmm, I don't think CowTao wants to deceive. It's obvious he is a really nice person. But there are simple questions that tend to be over-thought and covered into the layer of the Ultimate Truth BS. So one fish would suffer one day, 100s of dolphin massacred in Denmark the next day. We can do nothing and smile all we want and talk about how they all have Buddha nature. This is not Biddhism - it's a spiritualized and lazy self-masturbation.

 

Oh, and if you thought that fish video was fucked up, don't click on the dolphin link... it's way too graphic. Killing hundreds of the famous and intelligent Calderon dolphins happens every year in Feroe iland in Denmark. In this slaughter the main participants are young teens. Why? To show that they are adults and mature...

[C T]

Don't lie to us. You can't even pass up this thread without acting in the form of writing responses. I know you'd kill the fish to put it out of its misery and then you'd stab the chef with those chopsticks. On the other hand I do believe you'd smile while you did it.

Acting out these emotional frustrations in your mind is the same, if not worse, than acting them out physically. What remains in the mind often do not offer closure, and will instead give birth to more seeds of delusion.

 

Yes, put the fish out of its misery. Stab the chef, cut him into a 100 pieces and coat each piece with batter to be deepfried, and then shoot every single one of the diners there, and those that survive the shooting, cut off their limbs slowly, so that they die a slow death, just like the fish. And then what? Does that improve the sad state of affairs of this world? Or does it selfishly give you a false sense of satisfaction that what your idea of justice is has been fairly carried out?

 

And these selfish, deluded ideas of yours will be perpetuated down thru the generations, just like it has been handed down to us by our previous generations, layer upon layer of stupidity, falsely leading us to believe that the world is becoming a better place for our great deluded ideas of what is right and wrong, and the exacting of justice for the wrongs that people do -- well, results are plain to see that it aint working the way we think it should have. The world is dying. Somewhere down the line, there has been a big screw-up, and people are now screaming for help. If you sincerely want to help, i suggest help yourself first, by transforming your mind, and perceiving without prejudice, without any preconceived notions, and then your actions will no longer carry any karmic consequences, thereby putting a stop to the perpetuation of suffering. IT STARTS WITH YOU AND HOW YOU TAME YOUR OWN MIND.

 

This is the real meaning of compassion, as taught by Gautama, -- to act without the action(movement) of karma. Its the only way to transcend the wheel of samsara, the perpetuation of ignorance.

Edited November 19, 2009 by CowTao

[gendao]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/17/e...h_n_360576.html

I believe that is Cantonese they are speaking. Well, Northern Chinese often "look down" on Cantonese because they consider them shady, low-class, country bumpkins.

In fact, people in Northern China often say that Cantonese people will eat anything that flies except airplanes, anything that moves on the ground except trains, and anything that moves in the water except boats.

I've been to China 4X and never seen this though, so at least it's probably rather rare...

 

But, Nature is cruel too. All animals also eat their kill live out in the wild.

538hUpRV7k0

[DalTheJigsaw123]

[Inedible]

(1) If I were in a position to stop killing of dolphins I'd have to at least try.

(2) That fish is out of water and hurt really bad and dying slowly, so I'd kill it quickly.

(3) The "chef" is going to take exception to seeing the fish killed early, and is probably going to want to hurt me for it.

(4) All I have to defend myself is the chopsticks. I just have to cause enough harm to get away.

(5) In a previous life Buddha killed a merchant after learning through telepathy that this guy was going to kill everyone else on the boat and take their stuff.

(6) Refusing to act is still an act that generates karma.

(7) We expect nature to be cruel, but in civilization we expect basic ethics. Civilization is based on trust.

(8) The video of the fish didn't bother me anywhere near as much as I thought it should, but I know that it would be a much stronger reaction in person.

[Aetherous]

But, Nature is cruel too. All animals also eat their kill live out in the wild.

 

That is a good point. But, a couple things...

 

We aren't animals. It's human nature to recognize suffering in another (even in a fish), and want it to end for them. If someone doesn't have that, then they probably have some sort of psychiatric condition.

 

Not saying CowTao does...I think he's just misguided about what spirituality and philosophy is all about...

 

People who are overly conceptual will ignore their own instincts, just because of the idea, "nature is cruel." Especially when combined with nihilistic/pseudo-spiritual ideas.

 

Funny how that makes them less human, and less animal.

 

Oh well, all it takes is a dose of reality to snap them out of it.

 

Something else about nature: when animals kill they usually tend to do it in a way that doesn't torture the prey. They will snap the neck or something. It's about survival for them, not about some trendy form of dining out, where you keep the prey alive so it can witness itself being consumed and laughed at. Sure it isn't an instant death for the prey being killed in the wild, but I still think it's better than what was shown in the video!

 

Peace.

[Gerard]

Please understand what 'transcending' normal, habitual responses are. This image is a perfect opportunity

to realize that the ultimate nature of Reality do not contain good or bad, ugly or beautiful, cruel or kind....

 

Yes, but in the meantime the normal reality is conditioned by dukkha. That fish was a subject of bad karma because it did something in a previous state of being. After being eaten that way, its karma was brought back to balance.

 

The ultimate nature of reality can wait, focus on here and now; however, NOTHING escapes the Law of Karma.

 

 

This lady was recently attacked by a chimp in the US.

[Inedible]

Maybe someone could look it up. I don't recall where I read it. There was a story about Buddha going to a monastery where the monks were ignoring one of their own who had become ill. The monks ignored this person's suffering, claiming that they were just letting karma run its course. Buddha told them that it was wrong to refrain from trying to ease suffering and claim it is because of karma, and he personally tended to the monk until he regained his health.

[C T]

That is a good point. But, a couple things...

 

We aren't animals. It's human nature to recognize suffering in another (even in a fish), and want it to end for them. If someone doesn't have that, then they probably have some sort of psychiatric condition.

 

Not saying CowTao does...I think he's just misguided about what spirituality and philosophy is all about...

 

People who are overly conceptual will ignore their own instincts, just because of the idea, "nature is cruel." Especially when combined with nihilistic/pseudo-spiritual ideas.

 

Funny how that makes them less human, and less animal.

 

Oh well, all it takes is a dose of reality to snap them out of it.

 

Something else about nature: when animals kill they usually tend to do it in a way that doesn't torture the prey. They will snap the neck or something. It's about survival for them, not about some trendy form of dining out, where you keep the prey alive so it can witness itself being consumed and laughed at. Sure it isn't an instant death for the prey being killed in the wild, but I still think it's better than what was shown in the video!

 

Peace.

Hey Scotty,

 

Its very easy to get on the high horse and pass moral judgements, to determine with foggy lenses what is right and wrong, and adopt a "Holier than thou" attitude. I can understand why this is so prevalent among those who have been brought up in Christian-influenced societies. Hence i am not going to pointlessly debate on moralistic issues and how it is viewed differently in the East and West.

 

My comments here looks as if i have attempted to portray an attitude of nonchalance and hitman-like coldness, but if we look at the teachings of Buddha, the goal (if there is one) of practice is to lead the practitioner towards transcendent insight(lhag thong in tib). Not sure if you know what this means, but i am sure the Buddhists would know (but knowing is one thing, applying it practically is another). So there are two ways to look at the atrocities of the world -- one, with tainted views, or with the view taught by the Buddha, which is with transcendent insight.

 

Viewing things with transcended insight does not mean turning a blind eye towards the cruelties and suffering of beings. By training the mind to rediscover this form of perception within, one can act, under any circumstances, in such a way whereby there will be little or no karmic consequences for all involved.

 

Lets take this video as an example. Lets say we were present there and decided to take action. The actions we take, no matter how just and right we deem them to be, will still be tainted and corrupted by our dualistic views of whats right and wrong, and even after the action has been performed, there will be 'seeds' or 'tendencies' that remain in our mindstream, which we will carry with us, in a dormant fashion, until we encounter another similar situation, and they will again resurface and like before, 'color' our new actions. The situation might be new, but the way we handle the 'new' situation is with 'old' thoughts. So this is how karma gets to pass on and on, like an unbreakable chain.

 

Lets say the Buddha was there at the restaurant. You and I know that He will definitely attend to the situation without a moment's hesitation. He would probably do the same thing any normal, decent person would do, but I am certain He will act in a way where there would be no possibility for further karmic consequences for all involved. Hence the emphasis on Right Insight, if you are familiar with the tenets of the 8Fold Path.

 

Many have mixed Christian morality with Eastern philosophy, and become confused in the process.Thats okay. But its a different thing to be mollycoddled by the teachings, the sutras and all the holy texts, hiding behind them, and getting all dogmatic and religiously judgmental. Time to get real, and understand the Teachings the way its suppose to be understood, and put the teachings into practice -- in some lineages, this is known as "Uniting the View and Conduct".

 

One last thing.. if i were on a sinking ship, it would give me great reassurance if the skipper acted with clarity and non-attachment to his emotional response to the situation. Emphasis here on NON-ATTACHMENT TO HIS EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THE SITUATION. NOT detachment for the plight of his crew members and passengers, BUT ACTING in such a way for the highest good of all, and not just for some.

 

You know something, the truth is, sadly, WE ARE on a sinking ship. And we are not yet sure how to act in a way that is for the highest good of all. So we remain hiding in our little world, with our little insights on rights and wrongs, and point fingers and toes at those that are able to see things with insightful clarity, which allows for conduct that is appropriate at all times.

 

Have a think. Comments if you wish.

Edited November 19, 2009 by CowTao

[Smile]

CowTao,

The thing is that you already assumed that people who want to do something have tainted minds based on their religious upbringing and judgment.

But its a different thing to be mollycoddled by the teachings and the sutras and all the holy texts, hiding behind them, and getting all religious and judgmental. Time to get real, and understand the Teachings the way its suppose to be understood, and put the teachings into practice.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yes, but in the meantime the normal reality is conditioned by dukkha. That fish was a subject of bad karma because it did something in a previous state of being. After being eaten that way, its karma was brought back to balance.

 

The ultimate nature of reality can wait, focus on here and now; however, NOTHING escapes the Law of Karma.

 

 

So by this logic, we must not interfere with the suffering of another being, lest we interfere with their "karma being brought back to balance"....Right.

[Aetherous]

CowTao,

 

Lets say the Buddha was there at the restaurant. You and I know that He will definitely attend to the situation without a moment's hesitation. He would probably do the same thing any normal, decent person would do, but I am certain He will act in a way where there would be no possibility for further karmic consequences for all involved. Hence the emphasis on Right Insight, if you are familiar with the tenets of the 8Fold Path.

 

Many have mixed Christian morality with Eastern philosophy, and become confused in the process.Thats okay. But its a different thing to be mollycoddled by the teachings and the sutras and all the holy texts, hiding behind them, and getting all religious and judgmental. Time to get real, and understand the Teachings the way its suppose to be understood, and put the teachings into practice.

 

Well, luckily I'm not Buddhist, and am not hiding behind any holy texts, or notions of "karmic consequences." I am therefore able to act freely and naturally, from the heart.

 

Buddhism shouldn't be about a philosophy that you learn and then apply to your life. If that's all it is for you, then you have a bad teacher who doesn't represent the actual tradition. In a more real type of Buddhism, you're supposed to practice meditation so that you realize intuitively what the philosophy is all about...not learn the philosophy and repeat it like a parrot, remaining unchanged. It should not be something you have to consider each moment...because then your mind is disjointed, and actually worse off than before you even began.

[TianhuaQigong]

ong ma mi bei mei hong

[Aetherous]

if i were on a sinking ship, it would give me great reassurance if the skipper acted with clarity and non-attachment to his emotional response to the situation

 

It would give me great reassurance if the skipper somehow saved our lives. Doing that would involve mental clarity and not dwelling on his emotional response (for instance, pissing his pants and crying). Just acting on pure instinct in the moment.

 

But if he was too unattached to his emotional response, and chose instead to sit there, contemplate the situation and its karmic repercussions, and do nothing...then we'd all die. And what's the point of that?

 

For instance, if "durkrhod chogori" was our skipper, he would look at us and say "these people all have a karmic debt, and they deserve what's coming to them, as do I, therefore I will not act and our karma will be brought back into balance."

 

...remind me to never get on a ship with a Buddhist.

[Encephalon]

Maybe someone could look it up. I don't recall where I read it. There was a story about Buddha going to a monastery where the monks were ignoring one of their own who had become ill. The monks ignored this person's suffering, claiming that they were just letting karma run its course. Buddha told them that it was wrong to refrain from trying to ease suffering and claim it is because of karma, and he personally tended to the monk until he regained his health.

 

This was the same tale that Buddhist scholar Stephen Batchelor (Buddhism without Beliefs) shared with us Tuesday night in Los Angeles. The Buddha excoriated this practice of using metaphysical abstractions to rationalize the failure of decisiveness in the midst of suffering. Batchelor elaborated on the contemporary prevalence of this indulgent behavior and made a forceful argument that superficial differences in spiritual paths are irrelevant to the task of sacking up and helping those who suffer.

 

After examining this thread that I have posted, and others like it, I have to conclude that it is the nature of online, anonymous posting that sucks the wisdom to its lowest common denominator. The intellectual level of our discourse would be much greater in a classroom, face to face, than the haphazard spraying of (mis)information that occurs in here. And yet, I continue to participate, and I'm not sure why.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

After examining this thread that I have posted, and others like it, I have to conclude that it is the nature of online, anonymous posting that sucks the wisdom to its lowest common denominator. The intellectual level of our discourse would be much greater in a classroom, face to face, than the haphazard spraying of (mis)information that occurs in here. And yet, I continue to participate, and I'm not sure why.

 

Let's hope that it would be much different face to face, but for some who post here, I doubt it.

 

ong ma mi bei mei hong

 

yeah, what he said...

[Encephalon]

It would give me great reassurance if the skipper somehow saved our lives. Doing that would involve mental clarity and not dwelling on his emotional response (for instance, pissing his pants and crying). Just acting on pure instinct in the moment.

 

But if he was too unattached to his emotional response, and chose instead to sit there, contemplate the situation and its karmic repercussions, and do nothing...then we'd all die. And what's the point of that?

 

For instance, if "durkrhod chogori" was our skipper, he would look at us and say "these people all have a karmic debt, and they deserve what's coming to them, as do I, therefore I will not act and our karma will be brought back into balance."

 

...remind me to never get on a ship with a Buddhist.

 

Making sweeping and perjorative generalizations about those who practice a particular path is on the same intellectual level as racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination, the stupid smileyfaces notwithstanding. I'm not saying the gravity of the hatred and stupidity is the same, but the thought process certainly is.