New Gateways For Modern Western Daoists

[Stigweard]

Here is my academic paper submitted for the The International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, Beijing, China.

 

http://www.taowizard.com/New%20Gateways%20...n%20Daoists.pdf

 

If you would like to assist in the development of the ideas put forward in this paper, please feel free to discuss either here or on the TaoWizard forum: http://taowizard.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?...&p=126#p126

[Kameel]

Great article. Reminds me of Alan Watts writing (for some reason). Is the word really "before-mentioned"? I always thought it was "aforementioned". Cheers.

[Marblehead]

Very nice presentation, Stig.

 

Thanks for sharing that with us.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

Great article. Reminds me of Alan Watts writing (for some reason). Is the word really "before-mentioned"? I always thought it was "aforementioned". Cheers.

 

It could indeed be "aforementioned"

 

Glad you liked it.

[voidisyinyang]

What did Beggar Su say about the correspondence course?

[findley]

Oh... Yes, I'm sorry I didn't make the effort to at least just make your acquaintance. . .

 

I had just assumed you would be another whack-job That was a good paper, and I can find myself relating to it.

 

Also, I'm pretty shy and reserved.

 

'gathering of the most eminent luminaries of the contemporary Daoist world'

 

 

hahahha-- well, *I* was there ! There were maybe 4-5 presenters I respected... Otherwise crowded by 'undesirables'.

[Stigweard]

I would really appreciate some discussion over what I have written in the above article. Specifically:

 

- What are the strengths and weaknesses of this proposal?

 

- What opportunities currently exist that would help the implementation?

 

- What challenges or obstacles would need to be navigated or overcome?

 

- How do you think this proposal could be brought to fruition?

 

Thank you in advance for your comments.

[findley]

 

Alright. It's dumb.

 

Who has the authority to teach corrrespondence courses? -on Taoism?

 

Taoist philosophy is an individual pursuit. If the official Taoist organization were to put out courses, they would essentially be establishing 'official' doctrine. Thereby implicating 'unofficial' doctrine.

 

Even the philosophy between the TTC and the Chuang Tzu are drastically different. How could an official correspondence course teach a Taoism in which even its core literature is contrary to itself? -Unless you would propose that the correspondence course simply teach and explain the classic literature. In which case, what would they do? send you books to read? maybe provide advice on how to go about thinking about the literature? Maybe background information?

 

--All the sorts of things that are in ....oh wait... books already?

 

Why should the Taoist association go through this headache. The best teacher teaches by example. They don't make efforts to educate the people. (In fact, the sage works to hoodwink the people, no?)

 

Like I said above, it's an individual pursuit. There is an entire world, an entire reality, for the Taoist to explore already. They don't need correspondence courses from the Official Taoist Association to add to their troubles.

 

 

[Stigweard]

 

Alright. It's dumb.

 

Who has the authority to teach corrrespondence courses? -on Taoism?

 

Taoist philosophy is an individual pursuit. If the official Taoist organization were to put out courses, they would essentially be establishing 'official' doctrine. Thereby implicating 'unofficial' doctrine.

 

Even the philosophy between the TTC and the Chuang Tzu are drastically different. How could an official correspondence course teach a Taoism in which even its core literature is contrary to itself? -Unless you would propose that the correspondence course simply teach and explain the classic literature. In which case, what would they do? send you books to read? maybe provide advice on how to go about thinking about the literature? Maybe background information?

 

--All the sorts of things that are in ....oh wait... books already?

 

Why should the Taoist association go through this headache. The best teacher teaches by example. They don't make efforts to educate the people. (In fact, the sage works to hoodwink the people, no?)

 

Like I said above, it's an individual pursuit. There is an entire world, an entire reality, for the Taoist to explore already. They don't need correspondence courses from the Official Taoist Association to add to their troubles.

Cheers for your comments Findley. True it is that to get a complete view of a situation we must explore and discuss all the negatives or weaknesses as counterpoint to the positives. You have effectively presented some valid considerations, which I thank you for because I tend to be a compulsive optimist.

 

Just as an exercise though, if, hypothetically speaking of course, you yourself did actually become personally involved in such a Taoist correspondence course, exactly what would you personally like to see take place or be established for you to be 100% happy?

[Tao99]

Hi Stig, My question is how do you reconcile such an endeavor with basic Taoist doctrine such as the following?

 

"But the teachings of the Lao Tzu may also be understood as the creed of the

recluse, the man of superior wisdom and insight who, instead of taking a

part in society, chooses to retire from public life in order to perfect his own

purity and intelligence. It is this interpretation of the Lao Tzu that has

most often prevailed in later Chinese thought.

 

This, perhaps, is largely because of the influence of the second great Taoist teacher,

Chuang Tzu, the author of numerous stories about sages and worthies who were entreated

by the rulers of their time to accept high political positions, but who re-

jected all such offers in favor of seclusion and self-cultivation.

 

It is for this reason that Taoism has so often been the philosophy and consolation of

the Chinese gentleman in retirement, of the political failure, and of the

scholar who abandons human society in search of a mystic harmony with

the world of nature."

 

from http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca...2pCPRv6M20-704w

 

There are >50 Taoist doctrine books translated into passable English, that careful (sometimes years worth of) study alone can produce a coherent and beneficial Taoist way of life. It's all in there for those who care to put the time in, and maybe that's how it should be. So I'm going to submit that your website, http://taowizard.com IS the best that can be done - a portal or crossroads for fellow travelers. I don't think someone's "official" interpretation of these words is going to help - its already in the words, for those who wish to follow along.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Tao99

[Apech]

Stig,

 

I liked your paper and I think you have correctly identifies a 'problem' that people have in getting access to Taoist teachings. But I'm not sure about the solution. I wonder if we need to distinguish between study and practice. I think a correspondence course could give people knowledge of the resources available and guide them through the study of key texts - it could also deal with the history and context of Taoism - but I don't know about teaching in the sense of spiritual development which is usually a personal an done to one thing. So I think you could deal with access to teachings but not access teachers if you see what I mean.

 

A.

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig, My question is how do you reconcile such an endeavor with basic Taoist doctrine such as the following?

Cheers for your comments Tao99. Whilst perhaps it may be true that in China's past Taoism was the philosophy of choice for "retiring gentlemen" and "socially evasive scholars," that is simply not the case in the modern Western world. For example, here on The TaoBums the average age is 25 years old ( http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5128 )

 

In the today's world of spiritual seekers people are more often looking for a supplement of wholesomeness within their modern lifestyle ... something to provide meaning, quality, and an enhancement of health and peace of mind. Is Taoism not available nor of any worth to these people?

 

The other big question: "Is Taoism a static tradition locked to it's historical formats, or is it one that responds to the needs of contemporary society?" Any student of Taoist history will know that the later is the prevalent truth. So as society changes and chanels of communication expand and advance, so too will the manner in which Taoism is shared amongst people evolve.

 

What will this evolving face of Taoism look like? What "format" will it take?

 

The possibility I have presented is simply that, a possible evolution of Taoist culture as it responds to modern society. Is it a "perfect model"? Goodness no because it is limited vision of only one person. For such a service to humanity to reach maturity it would take the consensus of all the "stakeholders," i.e traditional masters, academic scholars eastern and western, as well as the common practitioner. It would be a long term process of summits similar to the recent one in Beijing, but with the primary focus on dialogue with the clear intention of arriving at said consensus.

 

Personally, from what I experienced at the recent Beijing summit, just getting these folks in the same room engaged in prolonged dialogue without one telling the other how much more important they were would be an achievement in itself

[Stigweard]

Stig,

 

I liked your paper and I think you have correctly identifies a 'problem' that people have in getting access to Taoist teachings. But I'm not sure about the solution. I wonder if we need to distinguish between study and practice. I think a correspondence course could give people knowledge of the resources available and guide them through the study of key texts - it could also deal with the history and context of Taoism - but I don't know about teaching in the sense of spiritual development which is usually a personal an done to one thing. So I think you could deal with access to teachings but not access teachers if you see what I mean.

 

A.

I agree with your comments A. Many practices cannot and should not be engaged with via text alone. However, as Michael Winn mentioned in our interview, though personal contact with a teacher is best, a student can still make progress with preliminary practices via audio and video transmissions.

 

In a very real way I view such a study course as a prepartory program which will properly prepare the participant to venture into either academic studies or come under the tutelage of a traditional master.

 

What do you think?

[Apech]

I agree with your comments A. Many practices cannot and should not be engaged with via text alone. However, as Michael Winn mentioned in our interview, though personal contact with a teacher is best, a student can still make progress with preliminary practices via audio and video transmissions.

 

In a very real way I view such a study course as a prepartory program which will properly prepare the participant to venture into either academic studies or come under the tutelage of a traditional master.

 

What do you think?

 

Yes, I agree. There are a lot of issues here. For instance no matter what one may say philosophically about Taoism as being universal (or perhaps non-dogma) in essence the fact is that it is culturally embedded in Ancient (and Modern) China. If you compare with Christianity for instance, where there have been 2000 years of interpretation and teachings which have been expressed through literature, architecture, values, politics and so on - to give a kind of inherent understanding of Christianity which pops up all over the place in Western culture (even for the atheists among us) - when we look at a teaching which comes from the East the whole cultural and linguistic translation becomes a problem. Its easy to make real mistakes by just getting the message wrong. Hence the whole debate over the word God, or god, or heaven or whatever ... people get really bogged down in things that don't really matter or even worse misunderstand the big picture. So some kind of appreciation of the foundations of Taoism is needed. This is true of any non-embedded system, for instance I am interested in Ancient Egypt and have to say there is an awful lot a embarrassingly bad stuff written about their beliefs. You have to go to source texts and do a lot of background work before you even begin to get a feel about the reality. Any distillation of the teachings that helps people through this stage is I think a great idea.

 

The other thing is that, as we know, many people in the West, particularly Qi Gong and martial Arts teachers call themselves Taoists when sometimes they really mean that they have their own understanding which comes from Taoism but is unorthodox. Now I for one think this is ok - its a matter of people being aware that this is the case and using their own judgement to decide on the particular teacher - whether it is valid or not. But it is, and will remain, very confusing, particularly for people starting out - and if they can read authoritative and accessible background to Taoism it will help them make the right judgement.

 

So I think your ideas are very valuable.

[soundhunter]

I enjoyed your paper, it was very well written and sincere.

 

Have been reading Alan Watts 'Tao the Watercourse Way" which illustrates an interesting contrast to the Taoism described by most of you here on this board, other than a few such as goldisheavy etc. Here's a quote:

 

Hsien Taoism, with its yogic and alchemical practices for attaining immortality or, at least, great longevity, was therefore almost the antithesis of the Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu teachings. Such practices must have existed already in Chuang-tzu's time, for he ridicules them:

To exhale and inhale, to puff out old breath and draw in new, to stretch like a bear and crane like a bird, with concern only for longevity-all this is induced Tao [tao-yin], practiced by hygienists who hope to live as long as P'eng Tsu

 

Yet I've seen it said here on this board that one is not a real Taoist if they are not practicing alchemy and energy work.

 

I agree with Findley that there can't be official true teachings of Taoism because so many of the writings, philosophies and practices are contradictory, which to some of us, is the heart and beauty of philosophical/contemplative Taoism. What draws some people to Taoism is the contradictory philosophical angles, where many religions say GOD IS THIS...this is THE WORD Taoism to me anyways, has a beautiful way of avoiding absolutes. I can see this being lost, and twisted if there's official "true" taoism being taught to Westerners. I personally am learning a great deal by reading books, and reading and participating in online discussions with Taoists approaching things from different angles, perspectives and biases. In this day of the internet, where information is easy, one who is wanting to learn will sift through the crap, sift through the nonsense, and find the gems of wisdom that are abundant and available to anyone who seeks.

 

Though I can see why one might need authentic teachings and guidance for the alchemy practices, or might want to study under accomplished teachers and perhaps there could be a way to help get some of these accomplished teachers in Asia online so that westerners can access them easier. But my concerns are that there is risk that these teachers could become dogmatic about what "true" taoism is, and that this dogma would have an ideal propaganda machine if it was a formal, and profitable "official" teaching of Taoism to westerners.

 

(once again, just the ideas of a newbie who knows little)

[Stigweard]

Yes, I agree. There are a lot of issues here. For instance no matter what one may say philosophically about Taoism as being universal (or perhaps non-dogma) in essence the fact is that it is culturally embedded in Ancient (and Modern) China. ... So some kind of appreciation of the foundations of Taoism is needed. ... You have to go to source texts and do a lot of background work before you even begin to get a feel about the reality. Any distillation of the teachings that helps people through this stage is I think a great idea.

 

...and if they can read authoritative and accessible background to Taoism it will help them make the right judgement.

 

Yes, this is also my view as well. In my presentation I gave at Luyi, Henan Province, I said, "Together we face many challenges in sharing Taoism with the world. We have to present Taoist teachings in a way that is digestible or palatable to the Western mind, and yet also in a way that truly honors and respects the Chinese roots of Taoism."

 

I know I have personally benefited by my own research into the foundations of Taoism and see this base level understanding as essential for any Taoist seeker; many misperceptions and false turns could be avoided with this contextual understanding. So yes a theoretical component of such a course would be imperative.

 

One of the reasons I so like the OBOD curriculum that I have provided as an appendix, and the reason I have presented it as a template to be emulated, is that they have 3 distinct stages: Bard, Ovate, Druid. Essentially these stages are: Theory, Practice, Embodiment.

 

The challenge with this Theory Stage is for it to be a "living" process of learning rather then just dry academia. Remember that the "target market," so to speak, is the common Western person seeking an insight and an entry into Taoism. So, right from the start, they have to have something that is relevant, applicable, and beneficial to their everyday life.

 

I wonder how this can be done.

[Stigweard]

I would like to pick up on a couple of these points:

Unless you would propose that the correspondence course simply teach and explain the classic literature.

I think a correspondence course could give people knowledge of the resources available and guide them through the study of key texts - it could also deal with the history and context of Taoism - but I don't know about teaching in the sense of spiritual development which is usually a personal an done to one thing. So I think you could deal with access to teachings but not access teachers if you see what I mean.

As I mentioned above, I believe such a correspondence course to be a preparatory service, giving participants the right preliminary foundation of theory and base-level practical application for them to then go on to "higher education," whether that be to Western academia or to traditional Taoist teachers.

 

In essence it would be an exploration of "options" within the spectrum of Taoist ontology. Yes it would indeed explore classic literature like Laozi, Zhuangzi, the Daozang etc. thus fulfilling the role of "access to teachings." It would also explore the Raison d'etre (reason of being) of the various Taoist practices.

 

But I also see it providing the role of providing access to teachers. Through necessity this course would have to be a consensus agreement between said teachers and so participants of the course would have the availability, once the course was completed, to then study personally with the teacher that was most appropriate.

[findley]

Well, alright..

 

If a correspondence course were to be held, in which they simply taught the classic literature... I would be happy. Because... it is easier to have someone hold your hand through the process...

 

The problem, though.. is isn't the 'dragon gate sect' of wang liping the 'official taoist sect' here in China?

I'm sorry, but I tried reading Cleary's translation of 'Modern Taoist Wizard'... but it was such complete <-- Edited by Moderator -->... I finally threw the book against the wall after the 3 'grandmasters' starved liping to death while he was tied up into full-lotus.

 

So, to say the least, even if the official taoist organization started teaching the classic text on-line... They'd have to really be careful about it... because I would be quick to demonize them if I thought they were perpetuating the kind of <-- Edited by Moderator --> that is in that wang liping book.

 

you know what I mean?

 

But yeah, it would make me happy if they held my hand through some of the classic texts.

 

 

*****************************

//--> This post has been edited by moderators as it was in violation of forum guidelines:

 

* Profanity and vulgar language

 

<-- The Moderation Team -->

[Apech]

 

One of the reasons I so like the OBOD curriculum that I have provided as an appendix, and the reason I have presented it as a template to be emulated, is that they have 3 distinct stages: Bard, Ovate, Druid. Essentially these stages are: Theory, Practice, Embodiment.

 

The challenge with this Theory Stage is for it to be a "living" process of learning rather then just dry academia. Remember that the "target market," so to speak, is the common Western person seeking an insight and an entry into Taoism. So, right from the start, they have to have something that is relevant, applicable, and beneficial to their everyday life.

 

I wonder how this can be done.

 

 

Stig,

 

This is from the OBOD website:

 

"The Bardic grade takes you on a journey through the cycle of the year, and introduces all the basic concepts of Druidry - showing you how it is a living Way that can be practised in the modern world, bringing a greater sense of connection with all of nature, and with the ancient heritage of the Druid wisdom-tradition." OBOD website

 

I imagine, being Druids, that they will focus on the Sun cycle (solstices and equinoxes (equinoxi??)) plus quarter days and give the student an interpretation of their meaning. There is also mention of ceremony - so I guess that they will give a practice based on these significant points in the cycle of nature. So the theory is grounded in actual practice of some kind of atunement to the natural cycle. Perhaps this is the clue to teaching Taoism - give people theory linked to simple practice perhaps related to the natural year. No idea what that would look like though. If the year cycle doesn't work then it could still be something linked to nature (maybe ?)

 

A.

[Stigweard]

Stig,

 

This is from the OBOD website:

I imagine, being Druids, that they will focus on the Sun cycle (solstices and equinoxes (equinoxi??)) plus quarter days and give the student an interpretation of their meaning. There is also mention of ceremony - so I guess that they will give a practice based on these significant points in the cycle of nature. So the theory is grounded in actual practice of some kind of atunement to the natural cycle. Perhaps this is the clue to teaching Taoism - give people theory linked to simple practice perhaps related to the natural year. No idea what that would look like though. If the year cycle doesn't work then it could still be something linked to nature (maybe ?)

 

A.

An excellent suggestion Apepch In my study attuning to solstices and equinoxes are intrinsic within Taoist practices. The OBOD course has special supplemental materials for the cross-quarter celebrations, I am sure the same can be done within a Taoist context. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Stigweard]

Collating the comments and notes made elsewhere in discussions over this paper.

 

-----

 

One challenge might be the point at which the language requirement is introduced. If there from the beginning, it might keep away those who would otherwise benefit - but if it's held back until later - then you might be faced with a large initial group getting what they can, and then dropping out when the lang req kicks in, and that would not be a good situation, imo.

 

-----

 

For this to happen would likely take an already established "Daoist authority, current tradition holder" to see the benefit of your suggestion.

 

-----

 

Creating a structure often means " creation " of a set.. known system. But that can also be the exclusion or destruction of given parts of the whole.

 

-----

 

The problems your survey highlight are real and important. I think we do need a better way. I could tell many tales of unqualified or personally flawed teachers.. how do you find out about sexual abuse from teachers..?? one rather excellent teacher, I know ,does fall into this group. Many questions.. what is best????!!!

 

-----

 

This proposal is a very healthy one. However, please keep in mind that Taoism was not intended to preach nor to spread the idea to brain wash people, so to speak. People had felt the need to be close to Taoism would make a personal approach to it. Taoism was based on the concept of "wu wei," the natural approach to things. Taoists do not make you believe what they believe, instead, it is strictly on your own to find your own path in a natural way and practice as much as you know.

 

-----

 

The biggest disadvantage I see for you is that your income is based on you offering this help to others. It's a toughie - having to charge other people for help with their spiritual pursuits so you can survive.

 

-----

 

The sticking point in your presentation will be appealing to different cultural values in comparison to your own.

[Stigweard]

Collating the comments and notes made elsewhere in discussions over this paper.

 

----

 

"you'd have to market it (to the gov) as a civic service, and show it's benefits, ie, education re another culture, showing documented benefits from studying this from accredited institutions (shouldn't be a problem), practicing meditation, the excercises - and show how it benefits the community at large, eg, offering kids a chance to learn self-discipline and keeping them off the streets x number of days for x number of hours, how students and teachers would give back to the community (community service)"

[Stigweard]

Following the excellent discussions in these topics:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/What-is-your-def...ism-t12539.html

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/What-type-of-Dao...you-t12567.html

 

It is vital, I believe, to articulate that the "outcome" of the curriculum suggested in the paper I have provided is not to become or claim the title of a "Daoist" per se. I believe we must honor and respect the Chinese roots of what that achievement truly implies.

 

At best a "graduate" of this course would be, to borrow a term from Prof Livia Kohn, a "Daoist Sympathizer." In saying this, however, they would be someone who has gained deep insight into the breadth and scope of Daoist ontology with a clear, practical understanding of the Literati, Communal, and Self-Cultivation aspects of Daoism.

 

It would be more than just a "Daoist Appreciation Course," in and of itself the course would be complete in that the participant would have a holistic "toolkit" of Daoist ontology that would yield tangible benefits to the individuals' lifestyle. It would, however, also serve as a "Preparatory Course" in that the graduate, if they wish, would have the capacity to progress into higher Daoist education via being provided, if and where appropriate, access to traditional schools/teachers or academic institutions.

 

In a sense, the course would be a layperson's correspondence home study course of Daoism. As already indicated, no pretensions would be made that it is instructing the participant's how to be a Daoist, it would merely be a common persons' way of infusing into their lives some of the richness that can be found within Daoist ontology.