Yin or yang... never both.

[Old Man Contradiction]

I want to address a topic that I believe isn't discussed enough here. When I first became interested in qigong, I spent a few months with some popular qigong systems that are sold in the west, for example, Mantak Chia's. Then I sought out a teacher and I benefited quickly from that decision.

 

It seems as if many qigong systems are incomplete by nature. A fundamental concept to being human, or taoist, is that the mind and body are one. A real system will challenge you both mentally and physically. This causes you to grow. Another important truth that a lot of qigong systems are missing is the "act of waking up". If you want your energy to wake up, your mind needs to be alert, alive, and focused.

 

Tai chi that's too soft, allowing the mind to lay mundanely and the muscles to grow weak.

Sitting qigong, that visualizes energy instead of actually using energy.

Moving qigong that is easy for the body and dormant for the mind.

Karate forms that stiffen the body and stress the heart.

 

Isn't there a way to practice that is both yin and yang?

[fiveelementtao]

As you say, a true system will have both. That's why it is important to find a qualified teacher of a good system. You mentioned Tai Chi... Tai Chi has been taught incorrectly for the most part. Very few teachers teach authentic Tai Chi Chuan. True Tai Chi includes the softness of relaxed muscles as well as the "hard" aspect of tendon strength. Without the tendon power, Tai Chi is mostly just a health exercise. True Tai Chi should look soft but there is a hardness underneath it.

This is something that only can be learned from a qualified teacher.

 

I want to address a topic that I believe isn't discussed enough here. When I first became interested in qigong, I spent a few months with some popular qigong systems that are sold in the west, for example, Mantak Chia's. Then I sought out a teacher and I benefited quickly from that decision.

 

It seems as if many qigong systems are incomplete by nature. A fundamental concept to being human, or taoist, is that the mind and body are one. A real system will challenge you both mentally and physically. This causes you to grow. Another important truth that a lot of qigong systems are missing is the "act of waking up". If you want your energy to wake up, your mind needs to be alert, alive, and focused.

 

Tai chi that's too soft, allowing the mind to lay mundanely and the muscles to grow weak.

Sitting qigong, that visualizes energy instead of actually using energy.

Moving qigong that is easy for the body and dormant for the mind.

Karate forms that stiffen the body and stress the heart.

 

Isn't there a way to practice that is both yin and yang?

[Encephalon]

Nei Kung is where it's at.

 

www.neikungla.com

 

www.chutaichi.com

 

Have you embraced your horse today?

[Old Man Contradiction]

As you say, a true system will have both. That's why it is important to find a qualified teacher of a good system. You mentioned Tai Chi... Tai Chi has been taught incorrectly for the most part. Very few teachers teach authentic Tai Chi Chuan. True Tai Chi includes the softness of relaxed muscles as well as the "hard" aspect of tendon strength. Without the tendon power, Tai Chi is mostly just a health exercise. True Tai Chi should look soft but there is a hardness underneath it.

This is something that only can be learned from a qualified teacher.

 

Yes, that seems right. Relaxed muscles and strong tendons. I have to say we do a lot of bodyweight exercise a la western boxing and kung fu at my school, so we do gain a lot of muscular strength and endurance.

 

I'd like to highlight your statement "Without the tendon power, Tai Chi is mostly just a health exercise.", and add that if somebody is only interested in gaining health, that they still need to train for the martial aspect of Tai Chi. To train to fight with tai chi develops your maximum energy. Later in life, this is what you'll need to stay healthy and fight off disease. Just doing inauthentic taiji for health may not give you the energy you need to benefit your health when you really need it to.

 

Nei Kung is where it's at.

 

....

Have you embraced your horse today?

 

I can't say I've heard the term Nei Kung. But from what I've read in your post it's an integral part of the fundamental level of my training. With the nei kung using the internal muscles for all movements, the 6 directions, and connecting up the body.

 

As for the horse, I'm doing night training tonight. It'll be in there.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Andrei]

s-kb4hVyhQA

[Encephalon]

[EagleShen]

Interesting, i was thinking of posting a somewhat related post myself on yin and yang cultivation. The two physically present teachers i've had, both very traditional in their approach, emphasise what i'd call a 'yin' approach to cultivating energy (ie let it arise naturally rather than making it happen), and a more yang approach to cultivating the body. My old teacher, Prof Wong, in fact told students doing Mantak Chia's fusion stuff to stop it while they were studying with him.

 

Love the commentary on Nei Kung, thank you. Any thoughts on where Dao Yin fits into this? I was under the impression that it was actually the term used for chi kung type practices before tai chi was developed and became popular. Have very little to back that up aside from a discussion with my chinese doctor.

[Gerard]

...Isn't there a way to practice that is both yin and yang?

 

I am going to definitively recommend you Bagua. It is a very balanced art: both internal and external go hand in hand.

[lifeforce]

Isn't there a way to practice that is both yin and yang?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Xing-Nei-Gong-Mainte...t/dp/0865681740

[Stigweard]

To the OP, and reflecting some the posts, if your perception of Taiji is that it is too Yin then you have either not found a very good school or you haven't trained for long enough. Taiji balances song (looseness) and gun (tension), both must be trained. Saying that though, the initial training, well at least in my perspective, should be more song because people are conditioned to be too gun in the first place. Trying to teach intrinsic strength to a body fragmented by tensions is impossible. Also, qigong should be a perfect harmony of yin and yang.

[Marblehead]

Also, qigong should be a perfect harmony of yin and yang.

 

Our total life should be that way as well.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ya Mu]

...

Sitting qigong, that visualizes energy instead of actually using energy.

Moving qigong that is easy for the body and dormant for the mind.

...

Your comment on sitting qigong is right on IMO. In the neigong system I teach and practice we avoid all visualization, saying it is OK to SEE and FEEL the energy but putting the visualization in there actually slows things down; it becomes finite instead of infinite.

 

But not sure where you are going with the moving comment. The goal is to remove the mind from the equation to make it infinite - multidimensional instead of finite - 3-dimensional.

 

I have found that simple rebounding is both yin and yang and beats any exercise of any kind for efficiency as far as body exercises go. Rebounding neigong is INCREDIBLE but takes quite a bit of time for the mind to get over the "but I'm jumping up and down".

[doc benway]

I want to address a topic that I believe isn't discussed enough here. When I first became interested in qigong, I spent a few months with some popular qigong systems that are sold in the west, for example, Mantak Chia's. Then I sought out a teacher and I benefited quickly from that decision.

Most systems you will find in the West and in books, and in China, for that matter are incomplete or relatively recent and often constructed by unqualified people. You may want to investigate the modern history of QiGong in China. You will not like what you learn.

 

It seems as if many qigong systems are incomplete by nature. A fundamental concept to being human, or taoist, is that the mind and body are one. A real system will challenge you both mentally and physically. This causes you to grow. Another important truth that a lot of qigong systems are missing is the "act of waking up". If you want your energy to wake up, your mind needs to be alert, alive, and focused.

 

Tai chi that's too soft, allowing the mind to lay mundanely and the muscles to grow weak.

Sitting qigong, that visualizes energy instead of actually using energy.

Moving qigong that is easy for the body and dormant for the mind.

Karate forms that stiffen the body and stress the heart.

 

Isn't there a way to practice that is both yin and yang?

I don't believe that any (or at least many) QiGong forms were intended to be complete systems of physical, mental, and spiritual growth. The old QiGong sets that I've learned are relatively short collections of exercises. Often they are designed for a specific purpose. For example, I practice ShiBa LuoHan QiGong and it is a great set to practice very hard for martial conditioning or very soft for Qi cultivation but its best to focus on one method or the other for an extended period of time to maximize the benefits. Similarly, I practice an "ancient" Eight Brocades set that is clearly more intended for overall Qi balancing/meridian opening and so on for health.

 

TaiJi Quan can be a relatively complete system, provided the soft and hard elements are balanced as already mentioned. Nevertheless it is incomplete without Dao meditation and neigong practices which may or may not be an inherent part of the system being taught (usually not).

 

As Marble mentioned, the important thing is to balance life as a whole and you may need a variety of practices to achieve that. It may be difficult to find everything you want/need in one system. In fact, IMO - there is really no need for a system at all..... unless we believe it to be so.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Observe the Taiji symbol, Yin and Yang.. both are always present. Taijiquan is a Martial Art, it uses Yin and Yang in a balanced harmony.. Taijiquan is so brilliantly conceived that intention alone will determine its result.. The same form i do with Martial intent can be done as a purely meditative Qi development form, each dependent on awareness and intent.. no element or movement of Taijiquan is 100% Yin or Yang, even the perceived Yin of 'rollback' is simulatneously expressing ward-off with 'Peng', it is both Yin and Yang with a Yin intention.. Yin and Yang are interchangable at every instance, they are relative..

 

Consider the stages of water.. a bowl of room temperature water, a bowl of ice, and a bowl of steaming hot water.. by temperature, the ice is Yin to the room temp. water and the steaming hot water, but.. by structure, it is Yang to the liquid or the steam.. Yin and Yang are interchangable according to the situation..

 

One of my first lessons with Dr. Yang, he asked us, "what is Taiji"?.. after several well-reasoned replies he shook his hean no and said it is 'Mind'.. Taiji originates in the mind, which directs the forms, the understandings, and every result.. the 'secret', is to 'internalize it so well that the Taijiquan/Taiji becomes the expansion of 'mind', no longer a separate part..

 

Be well..

[gendao]

[Old Man Contradiction]

s-kb4hVyhQA

 

I don't see the power in him that I am talking about. He seems about normal for the taiji masters of today, which don't really compare (according to Wang Xiangzhai) to the masters of older times.

 

I am going to definitively recommend you Bagua. It is a very balanced art: both internal and external go hand in hand.

 

Yeah, I'll ask to learn bagua from my current teacher at some point. I've done a little bit of pre-heaven palm with him, but my tai chi and xingyi forms need a lot of work, and my focus on I-Chuan is really shortening my learning curve in the 3 internal arts so I'll continue to work hard in zhan zhuang and test of power.

 

To the OP, and reflecting some the posts, if your perception of Taiji is that it is too Yin then you have either not found a very good school or you haven't trained for long enough. Taiji balances song (looseness) and gun (tension), both must be trained. Saying that though, the initial training, well at least in my perspective, should be more song because people are conditioned to be too gun in the first place. Trying to teach intrinsic strength to a body fragmented by tensions is impossible. Also, qigong should be a perfect harmony of yin and yang.

 

You misread me Stigweard, my perception is that Taiji is supposed to be a balanced discipline, but that a lot of the Taiji I see is just a really watered down, easy version, of what Taiji can be.

 

Most systems you will find in the West and in books, and in China, for that matter are incomplete or relatively recent and often constructed by unqualified people. You may want to investigate the modern history of QiGong in China. You will not like what you learn.

I don't believe that any (or at least many) QiGong forms were intended to be complete systems of physical, mental, and spiritual growth. The old QiGong sets that I've learned are relatively short collections of exercises. Often they are designed for a specific purpose. For example, I practice ShiBa LuoHan QiGong and it is a great set to practice very hard for martial conditioning or very soft for Qi cultivation but its best to focus on one method or the other for an extended period of time to maximize the benefits. Similarly, I practice an "ancient" Eight Brocades set that is clearly more intended for overall Qi balancing/meridian opening and so on for health.

 

TaiJi Quan can be a relatively complete system, provided the soft and hard elements are balanced as already mentioned. Nevertheless it is incomplete without Dao meditation and neigong practices which may or may not be an inherent part of the system being taught (usually not).

 

As Marble mentioned, the important thing is to balance life as a whole and you may need a variety of practices to achieve that. It may be difficult to find everything you want/need in one system. In fact, IMO - there is really no need for a system at all..... unless we believe it to be so.

 

I agree with you. Especially about a system not being necessary.

 

Right now I believe that Taiji is more consistently taught by unqualified teachers than any other of the internal martial arts. This seems to be making a lot of students naive. Not much more I can say besides hope to god you find a good teacher. Also, it's a good sign if your teacher can joke and doesn't take himself too seriously.