The difference between Chi Kung and Nei Kung

[Encephalon]

[Nilo]

Thank you for this.

[Ya Mu]

As a general rule, a true Nei Kung expert with understand the methodologies of Chi Kung. However, the reverse is not true, - a Chi Kung expert will usually not be aware of all the Nei Kung methods

 

When I first started teaching neigong I had several folks come through my classes that had been exposed to Chi Kung, with some calling themselves "Chi Kung Masters". It was very difficult for them to understand the neigong.

But these days most people think the term Chi Kung pretty much encompasses all.

 

If a person understands neigong then they will understand chi kung, but the opposite is not true.

 

I developed a Chi Kung movement system through the practice of neigong. When marketing, I usually call it all Chi Kung to avoid confusion in the western mind.

[doc benway]

Edited November 22, 2009 by steve f

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

"Two sides of the same coin"

 

Be well..

[doc benway]

Greetings..

 

"Two sides of the same coin"

 

Be well..

Different words describing one reality...

Agreed.

[Encephalon]

Thanks for those quotes Blasto. Some is very good, some I think not so good.

I disagree with this. Nei Gong stays inside in my experience. I have not really seen a quality of Nei Gong working toward the outside in any fashion. Qi Gong is definitely more of an "Outside" exercise/experience but I do believe there is internal activity occurring simultaneously with the external breath work. I find this comparison to be clumsy and misleading.

I completely disagree with this simplification. In fact, I would say it is backwards.

 

In Nei Gong, the Qi is guided very directly, specifically, and fine tuned, starting with very simple pathways. A perfect example is the MCO. There are more complex exercises but they still are very focused, limited, and specific. There are a few more generalized techniques that become more diffused and vague, if you will, but still there does not tend to be multiple systems being attended to simultaneously.

 

Qi Gong, on the other hand, utilizes breath, body movement, +/- some degree of directing the Qi with the intention, and necessarily incorporates a great deal more complexity. In even a simple Qi Gong technique. By the very nature of the combined mind, breath, and body work there are a multitude of energetic processes transpiring simultaneously where in nei gong the body is generally still, the breath generally is very still (prenatal), and the only thing happening is direction of the Qi with the intent.

 

This is very accurate, IMO. My most experienced Qi Gong teachers have never emphasized use of the mind or visualization of meridians and so forth during practice. They emphasize proper posture, technique, breathing, and usually it is simply a matter of sinking Qi to dan tian coordinated with the breathing pattern. That is why Qi Gong literally means 'breath work' and Nei Gong means 'internal work.'

 

Excellent and valuable points. In fact, the Daoists use two different characters - one for Qi 氣 (breath) and one for Qi 炁 ("internal energy"). In almost every text you will read, the second character is substituted by the one for breath. I've never seen the first character in an English text. The character for "internal energy" is almost exclusively found in archaic cultivation texts and most people deny its existence has significance.

This is not accurate. Qi Gong exercises tend to favor certain pathways more than others but incorporate many simultaneously. There are NeiGong techniques that are more generalized as described. Others are much more specifically focused to certain pathways, even more so by the very nature of the practice than Qi Gong.

 

I think I'll quote Dr. Yang's "Qigong for Health and Martial Arts" as well when I get the chance. Chapter 2 is called Wai Dan Qigong (external Elixir) and Chapter 3 is called Nei dan Qigong (internal elixir), which I take to be Chi Kung and Nei Kung, respectively. The similarities with Frantzis' grasp of the subject appear to be greater than the divergences.

 

It would be great to create a flow chart, or schematic, of all these teachings in one continuum, but I suspect there would be honest disconnects in pedagogy. I may end up getting a copy of "Chi Kung for Dummies"; the series often have good writers.

 

Thanks for the points.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Blasto

[Aetherous]

Steve F,

 

I like your reply.

 

Blasto,

 

Thanks for compiling these definitions!

[mjjbecker]

See Qigong Fever by David Palmer

 

and Falun Gong and the Future of China by David Ownby

 

The above books cover the history of the modern use of the term qigong.

 

Strictly speaking, in China, 'qigong', or 'chi kung', is the catch-all term for the different methods of qi cultivation. That includes 'neigong' or 'nei kung'. Throughout Chinese history, different schools have used different names to describe their practices. Some, if not many, still use the old names. For public understanding though, qigong is used.

 

Why the qigong vs neigong debate now? Look at the history. In the 1950s and 60's and the 1980's to early 1990's qigong practices were widely promoted for health reasons. Books were written for this purpose. Some better than others, but many, if not all of them, simplified versions of older methods. Why? Because the method had to be learnable from a book. Complex and/or dangerous practices need a teacher. Also, different levels of instruction need to be done directly.

 

What BKF has done is create his own definition, in the same manner that Donn Draeger did with bugei/budo. It serves to distinguish between the old and new. It isn't however considered 'official' or necessarily recognised by others. Dr Yang does have a lot of qigong and martial arts teaching experience, however there are texts that he is simply a translator of-he has not had direct instruction from a teacher in those methods. The texts alone are largely useless without a teacher.

 

Within BKF's area of study-the arts of taijiquan, ba gua and hsing i-the term neigong is used. However, in other schools of martial arts and cultivation, different terms are used. This doesn't make them inferior-they just use names that the founders or earlier teachers thought more appropriate.

 

Finally, just because one school calls what it does 'neigong', that does not mean it is better than other methods, including some that use the term 'qigong'. The teacher and the method are paramount, not the names.

[Ken]

Pretty much agree completely with Mike here, that's how i see these terms.

 

See Qigong Fever by David Palmer

 

and Falun Gong and the Future of China by David Ownby

 

The above books cover the history of the modern use of the term qigong.

 

Strictly speaking, in China, 'qigong', or 'chi kung', is the catch-all term for the different methods of qi cultivation. That includes 'neigong' or 'nei kung'. Throughout Chinese history, different schools have used different names to describe their practices. Some, if not many, still use the old names. For public understanding though, qigong is used.

 

Why the qigong vs neigong debate now? Look at the history. In the 1950s and 60's and the 1980's to early 1990's qigong practices were widely promoted for health reasons. Books were written for this purpose. Some better than others, but many, if not all of them, simplified versions of older methods. Why? Because the method had to be learnable from a book. Complex and/or dangerous practices need a teacher. Also, different levels of instruction need to be done directly.

 

What BKF has done is create his own definition, in the same manner that Donn Draeger did with bugei/budo. It serves to distinguish between the old and new. It isn't however considered 'official' or necessarily recognised by others. Dr Yang does have a lot of qigong and martial arts teaching experience, however there are texts that he is simply a translator of-he has not had direct instruction from a teacher in those methods. The texts alone are largely useless without a teacher.

 

Within BKF's area of study-the arts of taijiquan, ba gua and hsing i-the term neigong is used. However, in other schools of martial arts and cultivation, different terms are used. This doesn't make them inferior-they just use names that the founders or earlier teachers thought more appropriate.

 

Finally, just because one school calls what it does 'neigong', that does not mean it is better than other methods, including some that use the term 'qigong'. The teacher and the method are paramount, not the names.

[Encephalon]

Thanks for clarifying. Seems that teacher/student relations are paramount.

[Baguakid]

Wow, I actually agree with Ken here.

[Ya Mu]

Qi Gong, on the other hand, utilizes breath, body movement, +/- some degree of directing the Qi with the intention, and necessarily incorporates a great deal more complexity. In even a simple Qi Gong technique. By the very nature of the combined mind, breath, and body work there are a multitude of energetic processes transpiring simultaneously where in nei gong the body is generally still, the breath generally is very still (prenatal), and the only thing happening is direction of the Qi with the intent.

 

Just like to point out that not all qigong or neigong utilizes breathwork and/or mind direction. Some forms are concerned with neither and go straight to the energetics.

 

 

The teacher and the method are paramount, not the names.

[fiveelementtao]

Just like to point out that not all qigong or neigong utilizes breathwork and/or mind direction. Some forms are concerned with neither and go straight to the energetics.

 

This is my experience also. In the tradition that I was taught, The postures and forms release latent internal energy. There is no need to build it up or draw from outside of you. In fact, if one tries to use too much breath to force the energy, it can cause an overload and you can blow a fuse.

 

I was taught that most of the methods taught that need complex breath or visualizations are "layman" techniques taught to the masses and that the most powerful techniques were rarely taught and were actually the most simple that needed little or no visualization. Complex techniques requiring lots of breath or visualization were actually created to satisfy the layman's curiosity. The "real" techniques are so simple that they could be hidden in plain sight while being able to distract the laymen with complex breath work which took many years to master. (that's what I was told anyway...) For example in my tradition, the two most powerful martial forms in our tradition are not taught by the grandmaster anymore because he says they're "Too Simple." This statement ensures that most power hungry students pursue the more complicated forms. My understanding is that he hasn't taught these forms in over fourty years. I was able to learn them recently and I understand why he has kept them secret. But they are very simple....

Edited November 22, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[mizpulyn]

hi guys this is an intentional DOUBLE POST... please allow this post... as life happens there are 2 exactly same threads on TaoBums going on... so i took the right to post the same question to both as they already do exist concurently... please dont blame me these two exact threads exist... i just want my question read by as many people and get most opinions... thus the DOUBLE POST...

 

hi guys iam new to TaoBums and iam just looking around, gathering information and starting to paint a picture before i jump on the excercises...

 

iam trying to find a system to start and stick to... i dont want to be jumping from system to system later... i have relatively good health and iam more looking for a kind of general cultivation and life elixir to fuel my creativity and spirituality...

 

after reading this thread i feel iam more inclined to Nei Gong than Chi Gong - it just makes more sense to me and my kind of personality...

 

would you post some popular and powerfull Nei Gong systems ? Names or website links...

 

i did my homework and spent days reading through TaoBums just to gather names of specific systems so i have some solid reference to begin with... i currently have my short-list of Qi Gong systems that i can choose from (some of them may be Nei Gong just using the "marketing catch-all" term of Qi Gong, i dont know)

 

Terry Dunn - Flying Phoenix Qi Gong

Chunyi Lin - Spring Forest Qigong

Michael Lomax - Gift of the Tao

Yang Jwing-Ming - Embryonic Breathing (name of book rather than system)

 

also if you could clarify one citation that jump started my interest in Nei Gong, please dont kill the messanger iam just citing a website that may be confusing terms:

 

 

Nei Kung is fundamentally different than Chi Kung, in that Chi Kung only uses yang (masculine) energy. Nei Kung utilizes both yin and yang (feminine & masculine combined) thus making it infinitely more powerful. It is surprising how very few traditional subtle energy systems actually utilize yin (feminine) energy let a lone make a distinction between yang and yin, just calling the two different forms ambiguously “chi”, “prana”, “ki” or “energy”. If a system doesn’t make a distinction it almost always only utilizes the masculine yang energy.

 

source: http://www.gestaltreality.com/2012/02/07/mo-pai-nei-kung-john-chang/

 

I dont mind the authors opinion what system is "more powerfull" but what caught my interest is the bit that only some systems (Nei Gong) distinguish between 2 types of Chi (yang and yin) - if this is true i definitelly want to be learning a path that utilizes complete spectrum of internal energy - it just makes so much more sense that there would be 2 opposing energies (yang and yin) flowing in your body... that claim just fitted right into my sense of how things work...

 

what do you think about that claim and if its true i would love to get names of the systems that utilize both yang and yin energy...

 

thanks and please no flame wars Chi Gong vs Nei Gong... iam just humbly asking for clarification of specific claim i read outside of TaoBums and what caught my attention, because it resonates with my world view (the existence of both yang and yin chi inside your body and the need to manage them as 2 individual chi energies)

 

cheers

Edited March 16, 2014 by mizpulyn

[ChiDragon]

 

hi guys iam new to TaoBums and iam just looking around, gathering information and starting to paint a picture before i jump on the excercises...

after reading this thread i feel iam more inclined to Nei Gong than Chi Gong - it just makes more sense to me and my kind of personality...

 

i did my homework and spent days reading through TaoBums just to gather names of specific systems so i have some solid reference to begin with... i currently have my short-list of Qi Gong systems that i can choose from (some of them may be Nei Gong just using the "marketing catch-all" term of Qi Gong, i dont know)

 

Please read again carefully! You had started at the wrong footstep. One cannot do Neigong without knowing Chi Kung.

[mizpulyn]

ChiDragon> please could you clarify why do you think so ? maybe with some reference as to your claim... i read several threads about difference between Nei Gong and Chi Gong and i didnt notice anyone saying that one is prerequisite to the other...

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon> please could you clarify why do you think so ? maybe with some reference as to your claim... i read several threads about difference between Nei Gong and Chi Gong and i didnt notice anyone saying that one is prerequisite to the other...

 

Well, it is very self explanatory. You were trying to find some books about Neigong; and you have find nothing but Chi Kung. BTW Let me know when you find a good book on Neigong. There is a big difference between Chi Kung and Neigong. Otherwise, why do you think there are two names given. PM me if you want to hear more from me! I don't want to offend anybody, here, more than I had. Thanks.

Edited March 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mizpulyn]

ok i will PM...

 

iam still curious about the claim i cited - about Nei Gong using Yin and Yang chi energies rather than singular chi energy:

 

Nei Kung is fundamentally different than Chi Kung, in that Chi Kung only uses yang (masculine) energy. Nei Kung utilizes both yin and yang (feminine & masculine combined) thus making it infinitely more powerful. It is surprising how very few traditional subtle energy systems actually utilize yin (feminine) energy let a lone make a distinction between yang and yin, just calling the two different forms ambiguously “chi”, “prana”, “ki” or “energy”. If a system doesn’t make a distinction it almost always only utilizes the masculine yang energy.

Edited March 16, 2014 by mizpulyn

[ChiDragon]

The claim is, only, the understanding of one individual.

Edited March 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Andrei]

BTW Let me know when you find a good book on Neigong. There is a big difference between Chi Kung and Neigong.

 

This is true. Here is the book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ling-Bao-Tong-Neng-Gong/dp/1470174545

[ChiDragon]

This is true. Here is the book: http://www.amazon.com/Ling-Bao-Tong-Neng-Gong/dp/1470174545

 

"Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu is a guide for meditation"

 

Do you what a "guide for meditation" is.....???

[Andrei]

Do you know what is written in the book?

[ChiDragon]

Do you know what is written in the book?

 

Frankly, no but I know what is meditation. BTW I can find out what Neigong is elsewhere. Just google it, I can come up with a pretty decent answer. Of course, it will be in my native language.

[mizpulyn]

ok who of you two guys read the book ? the one who read it please tell me if there are nei gong excercises in it or just philosophy...

Edited March 16, 2014 by mizpulyn