voidisyinyang Posted November 23, 2009 http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Spring-Forest-...080f55158788e68 I must protest. Trying to practice from Taoist Yoga is not the best course of action here. Drew, how much do you really think you would have gotten out of it if you had not spent the time you did trianing with Chunyi Lin in person? Others have made good recommendations. I'll throw in mine, which mostly echo those of others. Read Tao Te Ching with an eye towards how it applies to life and cultivation. Chia and Huang's Secret Teachings of the Tao te Ching, and the more advanced Revealing the Tao Te Ching by Hu and Parker are great here. I love Liao's Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, but it is pricey. Also, read Zhuang Zi. The one I read was Feng and English's, Mair's and Watson's come recommended to me as well. Another genre to look into is Taoist stories. Eva Wong's Seven Taoist Masters is a great read, as well as her Tales of the Dancing Dragon and Tales of the Taoist Immortals. These will help give you some much needed "culture" so often lacking in Westerners who think that Taoism is all about a philosophy or having better sex. Opening the Dragon Gate is another good read in this genre. When you read these, make sure you keep your mind open but beware not to read any of these as literal history. Even if everything that they describe is theoretically possible, that doesn't mean it happened like that. Two authors who have lots of books on how Taoism applies to everyday life and are constantly recommended around here are Deng Ming-Dao and Ni Hua-Ching. As far as books, etc. from which to self-study actual practices, Spring Forest Qigong and anything (or everything) by B. K. Frantzis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I will. I also ordered Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. I haven't read this book yet, but I've heard a lot of good about it. Let us know how it is. that was my introduction too, years ago, and I'm still grateful. Same here. It's the best introduction to Taoism that I've read. Edited November 23, 2009 by secularfuture Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted November 23, 2009 Why do you refuse to give me a link and some pricing information on "KAP"? http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/k...e_learning.html $333 for 12 half hour lessons and lifetime access to their videos, review classes, and Shaktipats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted November 23, 2009 http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Spring-Forest-...080f55158788e68 gotta love those torrents. I think you need to go through lvl 1 though first because lvl 2 uses a lot of the concepts of taoism and chinese meridians and medical theory that are taught in lvl 1, the probelm is the audio courses in the torrents are all incomplete and that's where all the theory is taught. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted November 23, 2009 I'm not against teachers. I'm only against those who try to say that you can't accomplish anything without a teacher. Yet (according to you) you yourself have never trained with a teacher... So you don't know whether training by yourself is actually as good or better. I have done both. I know the difference.. I have no problem if people want to learn on their own. That's their business expecially if it just philosphical taoism. I AM against anyone telling others they DON'T need a teacher. It is very irresponsible and possibly dangerous if it involves energy training... Why do you refuse to give me a link and some pricing information on "KAP"? Because you're a big boy/girl. do it yourself. If you're not interested, then don't bother... Who was your teacher, and how much did you pay for him/her? I've had numerous teachers and I hope to have more. Who they are is none of your business. Those who train with me can meet them.. I paid whatever they asked? What difference? Why do you keep bringing up money? Do you train with books and CD's because you think it's cheaper? Is it a money issue? But I highly doubt any of them would try to discourage a seeker from practice if they couldn't find a teacher, There you go again... How do you know what they would say? You are not their student. You only read their books.. Why don't you ask them if they think that someone can't find a teacher. They would tell you that either they or their certified instructors are easily available. Unless someone is an invalid, It is almost impossible for someone to NOT be able to find a teacher... If you don;t have the money, get a job?... If you don't have time, quit your job... If there were no books or CD's, what would you do? You'd have to put some effort into it... It's very difficult to make "mistakes" with basic sitting, lying, and standing meditations that don't involve any physical moment. You couldn't be MORE wrong.... Take a look at all the people on this forum complaining about life threatening illnesses and issues as a result of sitting meditations they learned from books... With all kindness, I tell you... You do NOT know what you are talking about here... Look, I have no wish to be drawn into a semantics argument. You're probably a nice person and you have every right to read as many books as you want and not find a teacher. If you had just recommended books. I would have said nothing. But, you have no business telling people they don't need a teacher just because that is what you choose to do... Despite how I sound, it is not an ego issue for me. I have been harmed in the past by solo book learning and I don't want others to go through what I had to... It's not necessary. there are people on this forum that can safely teach authentic traditions... But learning energy techniques without the guidance of a live teacher can be downright lethal! I recommend many of them, but any of them can be very harmful if done wrong and no practice should be undertaken for any serious length of time without personal guidance. This is not the way Taoism was practiced EVER... until very recently.... Seriously, that's all for me on this thread for today... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky7Strikes Posted November 23, 2009 I agree with fiveelementtao that you need a teacher for Daoist cultivation. Buddhist cultivation, not so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/k...e_learning.html $333 for 12 half hour lessons and lifetime access to their videos, review classes, and Shaktipats. Thank you. It's too bad Taoist teachers can't be more like Buddhist teachers. Look at the quality resources Buddhists have, for FREE. http://www.audiodharma.org http://www.bhavanasociety.org/list/category/MP3s/ http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/about-buddhism/audio.html Yet (according to you) you yourself have never trained with a teacher... So you don't know whether training by yourself is actually as good or better. I have done both. I know the difference. And, from the looks of the pricing on that KAP page, you have the money too. Not everyone is as rich as you are. Because you're a big boy/girl. do it yourself. If you're not interested, then don't bother... My Google search only brought up results for "Kite Aerial Photography" and "CSAT's Knowledge Application Program." And this forum has a 4 character minimum for searches. I've had numerous teachers and I hope to have more. You're a high roller. I paid whatever they asked? What difference? Why do you keep bringing up money? Because in my world it doesn't grow on trees. I have to stick to a budget, and programs that I can afford. Do you train with books and CD's because you think it's cheaper? Is it a money issue? Not entirely. I could go out and spend $400 on a Taoist teacher if I wanted to, but why do that when I can order a training video from Amazon for 1/4th the price, and study in the comfort of my own home? Why don't you ask them if they think that someone can't find a teacher. Because I'm too busy with work, practice, and my social life to bother. If you don;t have the money, get a job?... If you don't have time, quit your job... If there were no books or CD's, what would you do? As long as the Earth is here, there will always be books. You couldn't be MORE wrong.... Take a look at all the people on this forum complaining about life threatening illnesses and issues as a result of sitting meditations they learned from books... With all kindness, I tell you... You do NOT know what you are talking about here... You have the nerve to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm not the one trying to encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism. You are a hoot. But, you have no business telling people they don't need a teacher just because that is what you choose to do... This is my point, in summary: If you can find and afford a teacher, go get one. But if you can't, this shouldn't discourage you from practice. There are many things that you can do without a teacher. It's not necessary. there are people on this forum that can safely teach authentic traditions... But learning energy techniques without the guidance of a live teacher can be downright lethal! I agree. If you want to learn more about controlling your blood flow and breathing, you shouldn't rely only on a book for that. However, the average Joe and Jane doesn't need to bother with the really advanced practices. They're not required for alleviating stress and spiritual development. Edited November 23, 2009 by secularfuture Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) And like I thought, it's a damn rip off. I'm not a KAP student, but $333 is not a rip off for personal instruction and a complete path. I mean just to buy a plane ticket to go see a teacher you can spend much more than that...and then there are the costs of a seminar, lodging and meals... To buy 33 books (I have many, many more) at about 10 dollars each (they usually cost more), it's the same price...and you won't get a complete path or personal instruction. Also, you must consider that if someone is putting in the time to put together a personally guided internet course for 12 weeks...well that's like 28 dollars a week for them. That's like 3 meals out...so it's not like they're getting really rich. For those who sincerely want to learn, cultivate, and don't want to waste their time...then pay attention to the advice given here by people who know! ... Edit: whoops. Secularfuture edited his post, and changed it to be more polite...so what I said really doesn't apply. Oh well. Edited November 23, 2009 by Scotty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 I just had a thought... For a beginner who's only looking for a place to start, isn't it a bit overkill to recommend a $300 - $400 teacher / program? Why not recommend a really good book first so that he / she can decide on whether or not Taoism is the philosophy they want to practice? If they like what they see in the book, they can check out an affordable Qigong DVD from Amazon. And if they want to dive deeper into some of the more complicated medical and healing practices, then they can start saving their pennies for a teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted November 23, 2009 OK, I was mistaken... I'm not done for today... Secular, I know you think I am mad at you and arguing with you... I am not. I think you really do want to learn. You have obviously put alot of time into your private studies and practice. I believe that underneath it all, you really want to break out and find a real teacher. You are honest enough to verbalize what many people won't which is that they are too lazy to take the risk. It is very safe to stay at home alone and pick and choose what you want to learn by yourself with no one to challenge you if you do it incorrectly or if you are not motivated to be consistent. But if you find a real Tao teacher he or she may totally transform your life and you will have grow beyond (as you put it) "The comfort of your home." That is not easy or comfortable. If you are looking for a comfortable path, Taoism is not the way to go. Unless of course all you want is to read some books or listen to some CD's. No Taoist master has ever grown without literally dying for their knowledge. Because in my world it (money) doesn't grow on trees So, then plant a money tree in your yard and it will... Maybe you might consider transforming your world. Your taoist training is primarily about transformation. If don;t have money... DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO TO GET IT. If you do not have this mindset, you will not be successful in your meditations... In my world, as long as I was willing to take action, the Universe has always given me everything I need to learn regardless of how much money I did or did not have and has rewarded me for taking risks, investing and making sacrifices. I have gone in debt numerous times to travel and learn. Some of the people on this forum know what agony I have had to endure with some of my teachers in order to learn. I would do it all again if I had to... I never let the thought "I can't" stop me. I can guarantee you that the authors of these books you read weren't rich either and had to do the same to learn their craft. I am willing to bet they sacrificed a great deal to learn the knowledge that you only read about. I have no sympathy for anyone who thinks that learning must be handed to them. It has never been that way. True knowledge never will be. There will always be sacrifice for true learning. It may not cost money, but it always requires sacrifice... There is a saying.. "you get what you pay for..." If you are not willing to sacrifice or work for what you want... You won't get anything of value. It's not about money. If one thinks money does not grow on trees... Then it will ALWAYS be hard to get. As a teacher, I take very few students for this very reason... In my experience, western students, (especially americans) suffer from a combination of an attitude of entitlement and a victim mentality. (Which I think are two sides of the same coin.) If someone wants to train with me, They must show me that they will value what I teach them and put it into practice. If a few hundred dollars is enough to keep them from training with me, Then they will not value the teaching. If a teacher hands you knowledge without requiring some sacrifice (whether in sweat, money or patience, then they either have not learned anything or they are ripping you off.) You have the nerve to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm not the one trying to encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism. I not only have the nerve, I have the knowledge and the experience to tell you with absolutely no doubt in my mind that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say.... It's very difficult to make "mistakes" with basic sitting, lying, and standing meditations that don't involve any physical moment. And you're damn right I encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism, buddhism hinduism or any other "ism" that might give them a hope of liberation if their job is the only reason they are not learning.... If someone feels that they have to choose between what they desire and a "job", yes, please chuck the job and go after what you want... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I just had a thought... For a beginner who's only looking for a place to start, isn't it a bit overkill to recommend a $300 - $400 teacher / program? Why not recommend a really good book first so that he / she can decide on whether or not Taoism is the philosophy they want to practice? If they like what they see in the book, they can check out an affordable Qigong DVD from Amazon. And if they want to dive deeper into some of the more complicated medical and healing practices, then they can start saving their pennies for a teacher. heh. it's no big deal I understand. Actually I've been into daoist thought for quite a while.. about 5 years starting with the practices of qigong and medical qigong. I bought the book Traditional Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy by Jerry Alan Johnson back in 2004 before they came out with the new elite series of textbooks. Man I want it so bad. So yea.. I've been around the stuff for about 4-5 yrs on and off but now I've recently come back to it with a new motivation to learn about it. I went through a stage where I wanted to discard of anything that was too folklore based, but reading scientific articles about qigong and daoist sexual practices as well as tantric sexual practices, kundalini and other forms of healing and health maintenance practices in eastern thought I'm coming back to it. So it started with Jerry Alan Johnson but I didn't read the whole book either because it was to me incomplete (plus there was an error in the page numbering), and now the new series is 10 times better and more refined. Introduced to daoism by qigong and taiji chuan and the philosophy and ideas behind it. As well as natural and alternative medicine and spiritual/physical practice (non mainstream modern biology and physics too).. It all began with the desire to improve myself and help myself in high school.... and desire to get women too since I never had a girlfriend, was unhealthy, etc. I actually like all the daoist stuff though I'm scientifically inclined. I understand there is folk daoism and ideas based on pure folklore in qigong and chinese medicine so that's the thing I'd watch out for but I'm interested in the truth contained therein. It's a system of belief that one can use to attain benefits from. It's not the complete truth IMO but we all start with generalizations which later become refined. Mainstream science has some integrating to do. Edited November 23, 2009 by Non Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I just had a thought... For a beginner who's only looking for a place to start, isn't it a bit overkill to recommend a $300 - $400 teacher / program? blink.gif Why not recommend a really good book first so that he / she can decide on whether or not Taoism is the philosophy they want to practice? If they like what they see in the book, they can check out an affordable Qigong DVD from Amazon. And if they want to dive deeper into some of the more complicated medical and healing practices, then they can start saving their pennies for a teacher. That's a good point. I recommend this very forum for a beginner. It's free...and as confusing and vast as it seems, the subject in question is MUCH more so. I don't recommend any book (at least as an introduction...there are couple of books that are pretty cool just to get extra knowledge). And I especially don't recommend any qigong DVDs from Amazon! I guess the question is: do you want to waste your time buying little things here and there which won't serve you well? If so, then don't listen to people who are trying to give you good advice, based on their time money and experience. Soon enough, you will have your own stack of qigong DVDs and books collecting dust, and a bunch of ineffective practices that you won't want to practice...and you'll be short at least the same amount of cash. So, to each their own. I'm done arguing this point. ... By the way: the Tao Te Ching, where most people started in Taoism, is online for free. Just google it. I don't think it's helpful, but some people like it. Edited November 23, 2009 by Scotty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 You have obviously put alot of time into your private studies and practice. I believe that underneath it all, you really want to break out and find a real teacher. No. It is very safe to stay at home alone and pick and choose what you want to learn by yourself with no one to challenge you if you do it incorrectly or if you are not motivated to be consistent. If you are looking for a comfortable path, Taoism is not the way to go. So Taoism shouldn't be comfortable? It should cause stress? Unless of course all you want is to read some books or listen to some CD's. No Taoist master has ever grown without literally dying for their knowledge. DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO TO GET IT. If you do not have this mindset, you will not be successful in your meditations. I already have been successful in my meditations. I've learned how to not cling to my problems, and I'm a much calmer and focused person. From the tone and use of caplock in your posts, it wouldn't be unfair to assume that I'm probably a calmer person than you are... I have gone in debt numerous times to travel and learn. No one, not even you, should have to go to such extremes for information. In my opinion, all information should be free. But if you have to pay for it, it should be affordable. There will always be sacrifice for true learning. It may not cost money, but it always requires sacrifice... I kind of agree. I learned how to sacrifice some of my material attachments once I realized how much of a negative influence they were having. And you're damn right I encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism, buddhism hinduism or any other "ism" that might give them a hope of liberation if their job is the only reason they are not learning.... If someone feels that they have to choose between what they desire and a "job", yes, please chuck the job and go after what you want... And what if that person has children to feed and bills to pay? You don't have to answer my post tonight. Get some sleep. We can continue this Tao Fest tomorrow. Good night. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 And I especially don't recommend any qigong DVDs from Amazon! What's wrong with Qigong DVDs from Amazon if they're by a qualified and respected teacher? Tell me what's wrong with this training course: The Essential Qigong Training Course by Ken Cohen I guess the question is: do you want to waste your time buying little things here and there which won't serve you well? The books and videos that I've bought have served me extremely well. If so, then don't listen to people who are trying to give you good advice, based on their time money and experience. Soon enough, you will have your own stack of qigong DVDs and books collecting dust, and a bunch of ineffective practices that you won't want to practice. Only if you pick poor products. I refer to 365 Tao: Daily Meditations by Ming-dao Deng daily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
secularfuture Posted November 23, 2009 I actually like all the daoist stuff though I'm scientifically inclined. I'm the same way. Personally, I try to stick with the spiritual exercises. I don't have much interest in the so-called medical and healing Qigong. If I need medical attention, I'd rather go to a hospital. And since my sex is already awesome, I don't have much need for the sexual exercises either. But to each his / her own. With Metta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiveelementtao Posted November 23, 2009 You don't have to answer my post tonight. Get some sleep. We can continue this Tao Fest tomorrow. Good night. No need. We each have made ourselves quite clear... Blessings and best of Luck to you, Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non Posted November 23, 2009 I'm the same way. Personally, I try to stick with the spiritual exercises. I don't have much interest in the so-called medical and healing Qigong. If I need medical attention, I'd rather go to a hospital. And since my sex is already awesome, I don't have much need for the sexual exercises either. But to each his / her own. With Metta hah... I like the spiritual too but moreso the alchemical aspects and cultivation, circulation of chi and transmutation. sexual kung fu. and the healing aspects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sherab Posted November 23, 2009 I agree with fiveelementtao that you need a teacher for Daoist cultivation. Buddhist cultivation, not so. I guess you never seriously got interested in any type of Buddhism at all... especially mahayana or tantric buddhism. Just google Guru Yoga Vajrayana, and you'll get a ton of info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted November 23, 2009 I guess you never seriously got interested in any type of Buddhism at all... especially mahayana or tantric buddhism. Just google Guru Yoga Vajrayana, and you'll get a ton of info. Hi Sherab! ...and i guess you are new here, so welcome! May your participation bring much joy to others! Did you google your way into Mahayana and Tantric Buddhism by any chance? Just curious.. hmm.. All the best! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sherab Posted November 23, 2009 Hi Sherab! ...and i guess you are new here, so welcome! May your participation bring much joy to others! Did you google your way into Mahayana and Tantric Buddhism by any chance? Just curious.. hmm.. All the best! Not at all. I had several great teachers, before i decided the path wasnt for me I never got past tantric preliminaries (ngondo) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted November 23, 2009 Not at all. I had several great teachers, before i decided the path wasnt for me I never got past tantric preliminaries (ngondo) Ngondro is quite profound and complete in itself. Its a great practice imo. Anyway, thanks for the reply. I better not prolong this post since this is really not related to the topic at all. Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) And, from the looks of the pricing on that KAP page, you have the money too. Not everyone is as rich as you are. If you wanna know partially what kind of thing KAP is about then you can get this book first.... http://www.amazon.com/Path-Notes-American-...5852&sr=8-1 Path Notes Of an American Ninja Master/Dr. Glenn Morris..... it's not really about Ninjutsu...then again it is....and then it isn't again. Read the reviews.... but remember..... it's a great book His student Santiago is knocking about here somewhere and he's a very nice man. Answered a question that had been bugging me about practice for some time. He didn't have to do that for free. Edit: I just noticed Santiagos' Dr. Morris secret smile thread on page one of the board. You can check that out for some free flavour. Edited November 23, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted November 24, 2009 My suggestion would be to study 3 or 4 translations of the Tao and compare passage to passage. In this way the essence can be obtained. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DalTheJigsaw123 Posted November 25, 2009 OK, I was mistaken... I'm not done for today... Secular, I know you think I am mad at you and arguing with you... I am not. I think you really do want to learn. You have obviously put alot of time into your private studies and practice. I believe that underneath it all, you really want to break out and find a real teacher. You are honest enough to verbalize what many people won't which is that they are too lazy to take the risk. It is very safe to stay at home alone and pick and choose what you want to learn by yourself with no one to challenge you if you do it incorrectly or if you are not motivated to be consistent. But if you find a real Tao teacher he or she may totally transform your life and you will have grow beyond (as you put it) "The comfort of your home." That is not easy or comfortable. If you are looking for a comfortable path, Taoism is not the way to go. Unless of course all you want is to read some books or listen to some CD's. No Taoist master has ever grown without literally dying for their knowledge. So, then plant a money tree in your yard and it will... Maybe you might consider transforming your world. Your taoist training is primarily about transformation. If don;t have money... DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO TO GET IT. If you do not have this mindset, you will not be successful in your meditations... In my world, as long as I was willing to take action, the Universe has always given me everything I need to learn regardless of how much money I did or did not have and has rewarded me for taking risks, investing and making sacrifices. I have gone in debt numerous times to travel and learn. Some of the people on this forum know what agony I have had to endure with some of my teachers in order to learn. I would do it all again if I had to... I never let the thought "I can't" stop me. I can guarantee you that the authors of these books you read weren't rich either and had to do the same to learn their craft. I am willing to bet they sacrificed a great deal to learn the knowledge that you only read about. I have no sympathy for anyone who thinks that learning must be handed to them. It has never been that way. True knowledge never will be. There will always be sacrifice for true learning. It may not cost money, but it always requires sacrifice... There is a saying.. "you get what you pay for..." If you are not willing to sacrifice or work for what you want... You won't get anything of value. It's not about money. If one thinks money does not grow on trees... Then it will ALWAYS be hard to get. As a teacher, I take very few students for this very reason... In my experience, western students, (especially americans) suffer from a combination of an attitude of entitlement and a victim mentality. (Which I think are two sides of the same coin.) If someone wants to train with me, They must show me that they will value what I teach them and put it into practice. If a few hundred dollars is enough to keep them from training with me, Then they will not value the teaching. If a teacher hands you knowledge without requiring some sacrifice (whether in sweat, money or patience, then they either have not learned anything or they are ripping you off.) I not only have the nerve, I have the knowledge and the experience to tell you with absolutely no doubt in my mind that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say.... And you're damn right I encourage people to quit their jobs for Taoism, buddhism hinduism or any other "ism" that might give them a hope of liberation if their job is the only reason they are not learning.... If someone feels that they have to choose between what they desire and a "job", yes, please chuck the job and go after what you want... Some good advice here. People will take what they want and leave the rest. My suggestion would be to study 3 or 4 translations of the Tao and compare passage to passage. In this way the essence can be obtained. I like that idea, it's been working for me thus far. Remember to use the knowledge learned in the Tao Te Ching, in your daily life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
