Deities, Orixas, Archetypes

[SAMANTABHADRA]

Ciao all,

 

Wanted to get everyone's opinion on deity practice. I have studied various spiritual traditions since the age of 9 or 10 when my uncle died and I became suddenly disillusioned. some of the practices that have resonated very strongly with me are Buddhism (specifically the tibetan and ch'an/zen traditions), Taoism (here I am ), and Candomble/Umbanda/Santeria/Vodou. The last four are by NO MEANS the same tradition, however they all come from the same grandfather tradition of African spirituality, which uses drums and song as a means to call the spirits down into material reality.

 

NOW. I recently began doing some mantra for Ganesha. Om gum ganapatiye namaha. 108 times, in raga malkauns, usually using one to three notes, around midnight. I offered a cookie and some incense once, a banana and some incense another time. I am looking for grounding, to be more grounded and rooted. To be able to pursue my path with discipline. Ganesh is said to be the clearer of obstacles... in this way, he can be paralleled to the Orixa (african spirit) Ogun. I am trying to invoke his archetypal 'warrior' energy in myself.

 

The question here is... IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, in your point of view, is this deity I am invoking simply a characteristic energetic potential latent in myself which I am trying to awaken by concentration and psycho-physical practices driven by intent? OR is this deity an actual entity unto himself, who is pleased with my intent and actually goes about helping me.

 

(This may be a false dichotomy , but that's another discussion)

 

I have also been doing the Vajrasattva mantra 'Om Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hung' with the intent of staying connected to my bodhicitta and realizing the interdependence of all things. I have no transmission for this, except reading it and hearing it on youtube .

 

Thanks all in advance.

[voidisyinyang]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2184059515285733378#

 

This talks about the experience of beings, etc. from the God Helmet.

[ralis]

Ciao all,

 

Wanted to get everyone's opinion on deity practice. I have studied various spiritual traditions since the age of 9 or 10 when my uncle died and I became suddenly disillusioned. some of the practices that have resonated very strongly with me are Buddhism (specifically the tibetan and ch'an/zen traditions), Taoism (here I am ), and Candomble/Umbanda/Santeria/Vodou. The last four are by NO MEANS the same tradition, however they all come from the same grandfather tradition of African spirituality, which uses drums and song as a means to call the spirits down into material reality.

 

NOW. I recently began doing some mantra for Ganesha. Om gum ganapatiye namaha. 108 times, in raga malkauns, usually using one to three notes, around midnight. I offered a cookie and some incense once, a banana and some incense another time. I am looking for grounding, to be more grounded and rooted. To be able to pursue my path with discipline. Ganesh is said to be the clearer of obstacles... in this way, he can be paralleled to the Orixa (african spirit) Ogun. I am trying to invoke his archetypal 'warrior' energy in myself.

 

The question here is... IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, in your point of view, is this deity I am invoking simply a characteristic energetic potential latent in myself which I am trying to awaken by concentration and psycho-physical practices driven by intent? OR is this deity an actual entity unto himself, who is pleased with my intent and actually goes about helping me.

 

(This may be a false dichotomy , but that's another discussion)

 

I have also been doing the Vajrasattva mantra 'Om Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hung' with the intent of staying connected to my bodhicitta and realizing the interdependence of all things. I have no transmission for this, except reading it and hearing it on youtube .

 

Thanks all in advance.

 

 

I remember Namkai Norbu saying that the deities were our own nature. An aspect of ourselves. I have been pondering this recently and have concluded deities are archetypes and represent synchronous, coherent frequencies that we can entrain to. Not something to be worshiped or seeing oneself as a slave to.

 

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I offered a cookie

 

I hope it was Chips Ahoy. Ganesha really likes those.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I offered a cookie

 

I hope it was Chips Ahoy. Ganesha really likes those.

[ralis]

I hope it was Chips Ahoy. Ganesha really likes those.

 

[C T]

 

I have also been doing the Vajrasattva mantra 'Om Ah Hung Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hung' with the intent of staying connected to my bodhicitta and realizing the interdependence of all things. I have no transmission for this, except reading it and hearing it on youtube .

 

Thanks all in advance.

Hey Sam,

 

Thought you might want to know -- the mantra above is not the Vajrasattva mantra. It is the mantra of Guru Padmasambhava. Its quite vital the 2 are not confused - not very helpful to chant one mantra while visualizing the other heh?

 

Vajrasattva has 2 mantras - one short, the other, well, pretty long. The short one is *Om Vajrasattva Hum* or in Tibetan, its *Om Benza Sattva Hung*.

 

Mantras are generally recited with vizualizations to enhance their effects for purification, but it does take more than recitations of mantras to realize the interdependence of all things.

 

If you are seriously considering mantra practice, i would suggest obtaining info (and learning from) more reliable sources, like respective authentic teachers (who should not be asking for money btw) who can then guide you safely and effectively. Once you have connected with a particular mantra practice, its best to stick with that one for a couple of years so that it gets into your stream of being in a stable way. When you begin to notice helpful changes happening around you as you gradually deepen the practice, you may then seek the appropriate empowerment from an authentic lineage holder if you so wish.

 

Trust me, picking up mantras from YouTube to chant without prior understanding of the subtleties and implications of the chanting process may be a waste of time and energy, and if one is not grounded, may also open one up to potentially adverse results. This could well happen if the poster of the mantra is not a very sincere person, or may have been exposed to undesirable energies etc. These would have a subtle impact then on whoever picks up the posted clip. Afterall, mantras are primarily used for transformation of subtle energies, so i hope you get the point here. Must say tho that chances of this happening are pretty slim, but the risk's not really worth it.

 

One of the things to bear in mind with mantra recitations is that they need to be 'opened' and 'closed' appropriately. Assuming you hook up with a teacher, i am sure you will then get a much clearer picture from him/her regarding this. IMO, this would be the most sensible way to go about your wish to get a better grounding with respect to mantras.

 

Hope this helped.

[sherab]

hi dude,

 

om ah hung vajra guru etc. is not the mantra of vajrasattva, but padmasambhava/padmakara/Guru Rinpoche - and a general invocation. there ones for padma totreng tzal, and different forms, etc.

 

just clearing this up.

 

vajrasattva's is om vajrasattva hung , and there is a longer 100 syllable that shouldnt be done without empowerment or reading transmission.

 

EDIT: CowTao beat me to it... plus, IMO, Taoism and vajrayana are not all that compatible, unless you are doing mahamudra or dzogchen... and even then, they may not be compatible. just my 2 cents.

Edited November 23, 2009 by sherab

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I have been pondering this recently and have concluded deities are archetypes and represent synchronous, coherent frequencies that we can entrain to. Not something to be worshiped or seeing oneself as a slave to.

Clarity is beautiful thing!!

 

Be well..

[SAMANTABHADRA]

I remember Namkai Norbu saying that the deities were our own nature. An aspect of ourselves. I have been pondering this recently and have concluded deities are archetypes and represent synchronous, coherent frequencies that we can entrain to. Not something to be worshiped or seeing oneself as a slave to.

ralis

 

This is truly my own understanding as well . Just wanted to hear other opinions, points of view. In my understanding, the human being contains all potentialities for human existence within itself - all ranges of energy from highest of highs to lowest of lows, infrared to ultraviolet, etc. - and the rituals or practices geared at specific energetic signatures or archetypes is a psycho-somatic kind of magic designed to invoke these energies within ourselves.

 

That being said... if mind is all, there is truly one consciousness, then it is possible that they are actually entities unto themselves, as well as being part of our own consciousness. make sense?

 

hi dude,

 

om ah hung vajra guru etc. is not the mantra of vajrasattva, but padmasambhava/padmakara/Guru Rinpoche - and a general invocation. there ones for padma totreng tzal, and different forms, etc.

 

just clearing this up.

 

vajrasattva's is om vajrasattva hung , and there is a longer 100 syllable that shouldnt be done without empowerment or reading transmission.

 

EDIT: CowTao beat me to it... plus, IMO, Taoism and vajrayana are not all that compatible, unless you are doing mahamudra or dzogchen... and even then, they may not be compatible. just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks to both of you for catching my mistake. Yes it's the padmasambhava mantra. I was reading yesterday about Vajrasattva and the 100 syllable mantra and mistakenly identified it as his.

 

In terms of mixing taoism and tibetan buddhism, I've found them to be quite compatible in terms of body work - qi gong and yoga. Visualizations and explanations from both traditions have helped me awaken awareness within my body.

[Apech]

Samantabadhra,

 

Interesting question about deity practice and even more so because you quoted the African tradition.

 

Obviously I have no idea where you are up to with your practice generally but I would repeat what a Kabbalah master said to me years ago. It is better to approach the gods by way of the absolute, in other words you should do plenty of emptiness or formless work before trying to use deities. That's because they can be very confusing particularly if you are not sure what you are dealing with - which is a the basis of your question.

 

The danger of thinking that deities are 'just' aspects of your mind is that you tend to down-play them, as if they are not real powers that can affect you and your life. But of course that depends on what you mean by mind anyway. But modern thought tends towards dismissing everything that is not physical as being almost non-existent. For instance the word 'idea' to the Ancient Greeks meant something like a package of energy with form. It was a real live power which could affect peoples lives and not a dead abstract thing - which is how ideas are presented these days. So I would avoid the idea of gods/yidams as being like archetypes and so on.

 

The Ancient Egyptians (who were probably the source of much African religion) called the gods Neters (or Netchers) and this was an all encompassing word used for everything from major cosmic gods like Ra (the sun) to underworld demons. Basically Neter means something like 'power concealed in form' its symbol being a staff wrapped in cloth. The Egyptians saw the world as being structured in three parts, the sky, the earth and the air. A fourth dimension the Dwat, or underworld was seen as being pathways of Shu (the air) within the bodies of the sky and earth. Everything that exists can be seen as having these threefold aspects. That is a sky aspect, an earth aspect and an air aspect. In philosophy these would be called the subtle (sky), the gross (earth) and the causal (air).

 

To the Egyptians the fabric of the world was formed by the gods. They were not separate from the world but concealed within it. So natural phenomena were seen as the souls (ba) of the gods, so the sky is Nut, the earth is Geb and the air is Shu.

 

We can apply this way of seeing things to the gods which we may wish to invoke to help us. Say for instance we wanted to attune to Thoth (Djehuti) the god of wisdom, we can acknowledge that Thoth exists in three ways. Thoth exists at the subtle level (sky) as an intelligence or power which functions above and beyond the world that we ordinarily recognize. We can also say that Thoth is manifest on the earth (gross) through places of learning, through particular animals (ibis, apes and so on) and through the manifestation of the application of know-how in our everyday world. Thirdly we can recognize that the consciousness we possess as the causal agent of being also has Thothian characteristics. So Thoth as a deity is both and at once, an intelligence in the universe, part of the manifest and also an aspect of our own minds.

 

Working with gods requires the utmost care and respect. I would also point out that the Buddhist and Hindu traditions view and interact with deities in different ways.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

[SAMANTABHADRA]

I hope it was Chips Ahoy. Ganesha really likes those.

 

Oatmeal raisin

[ralis]

Samantabadhra,

 

Interesting question about deity practice and even more so because you quoted the African tradition.

 

Obviously I have no idea where you are up to with your practice generally but I would repeat what a Kabbalah master said to me years ago. It is better to approach the gods by way of the absolute, in other words you should do plenty of emptiness or formless work before trying to use deities. That's because they can be very confusing particularly if you are not sure what you are dealing with - which is a the basis of your question.

 

The danger of thinking that deities are 'just' aspects of your mind is that you tend to down-play them, as if they are not real powers that can affect you and your life. But of course that depends on what you mean by mind anyway. But modern thought tends towards dismissing everything that is not physical as being almost non-existent. For instance the word 'idea' to the Ancient Greeks meant something like a package of energy with form. It was a real live power which could affect peoples lives and not a dead abstract thing - which is how ideas are presented these days. So I would avoid the idea of gods/yidams as being like archetypes and so on.

 

The Ancient Egyptians (who were probably the source of much African religion) called the gods Neters (or Netchers) and this was an all encompassing word used for everything from major cosmic gods like Ra (the sun) to underworld demons. Basically Neter means something like 'power concealed in form' its symbol being a staff wrapped in cloth. The Egyptians saw the world as being structured in three parts, the sky, the earth and the air. A fourth dimension the Dwat, or underworld was seen as being pathways of Shu (the air) within the bodies of the sky and earth. Everything that exists can be seen as having these threefold aspects. That is a sky aspect, an earth aspect and an air aspect. In philosophy these would be called the subtle (sky), the gross (earth) and the causal (air).

 

To the Egyptians the fabric of the world was formed by the gods. They were not separate from the world but concealed within it. So natural phenomena were seen as the souls (ba) of the gods, so the sky is Nut, the earth is Geb and the air is Shu.

 

We can apply this way of seeing things to the gods which we may wish to invoke to help us. Say for instance we wanted to attune to Thoth (Djehuti) the god of wisdom, we can acknowledge that Thoth exists in three ways. Thoth exists at the subtle level (sky) as an intelligence or power which functions above and beyond the world that we ordinarily recognize. We can also say that Thoth is manifest on the earth (gross) through places of learning, through particular animals (ibis, apes and so on) and through the manifestation of the application of know-how in our everyday world. Thirdly we can recognize that the consciousness we possess as the causal agent of being also has Thothian characteristics. So Thoth as a deity is both and at once, an intelligence in the universe, part of the manifest and also an aspect of our own minds.

 

Working with gods requires the utmost care and respect. I would also point out that the Buddhist and Hindu traditions view and interact with deities in different ways.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

 

 

I was not referring to any mundane aspect of the human mind. Deities being an archetype of cosmic forces.

 

ralis

[Apech]

I was not referring to any mundane aspect of the human mind. Deities being an archetype of cosmic forces.

 

ralis

 

 

OK I was only speaking generally about how people think of gods - not aimed at your post.

 

Cheers.

 

A.

[sherab]

This is truly my own understanding as well . Just wanted to hear other opinions, points of view. In my understanding, the human being contains all potentialities for human existence within itself - all ranges of energy from highest of highs to lowest of lows, infrared to ultraviolet, etc. - and the rituals or practices geared at specific energetic signatures or archetypes is a psycho-somatic kind of magic designed to invoke these energies within ourselves.

 

That being said... if mind is all, there is truly one consciousness, then it is possible that they are actually entities unto themselves, as well as being part of our own consciousness. make sense?

Thanks to both of you for catching my mistake. Yes it's the padmasambhava mantra. I was reading yesterday about Vajrasattva and the 100 syllable mantra and mistakenly identified it as his.

 

In terms of mixing taoism and tibetan buddhism, I've found them to be quite compatible in terms of body work - qi gong and yoga. Visualizations and explanations from both traditions have helped me awaken awareness within my body.

Tibetan buddhism's yoga, or trul khor, is left for those who have had wangkur into a deity of the highest yoga tantra class, and can keep the 14 root tantric samayas.

[fiveelementtao]

You ask very good questions.

 

I have experience in both the yoruba and yogic traditions. I cannot speak to the tibetan tradition, but others have done so already. I am speaking from painful experience here when I say...

 

It's best not to mix practices or traditions unless you really know what you are doing. Pick one technique from one tradition from a reliable resource and then stick with it and follow instructions. There are alot of mantras easily available. But remember that sanskrit mantras are very powerful and should not be played with without real commitment. If you choose one, do so mindfully and stick with it for the prescribed amount of time until the mantra has achieved it's effect. This will insure success and also not "anger" or confuse the energies you are stimulating.

 

In terms of Ganesha, He is directly related to the Root Chakra. So, when you chant to Ganesha, you are activating the Root chakra and the Earth Element. Ganesha breaks obstacles through manifestation. This is why Ganesha is always chanted to first before embarking on any new project. because it is through the Earth element that one can manifest their desire. Ogun, however is VERY different. He is from the Yoruba tradition and is connected to the Metal Element. Ogun destroys obstacles with his machete. He uses metal to hack, slash and divide. He is known as a very angry warrior and must be treated with respect. If he is angered, it is BAD news. So, you can't just throw Ganesha and Ogun together because they both "break obstacles." They do it in very different ways. Each of these ideas are from different cultures, so it is important to understand the function of each diety within the context of their story. destroying obstacles in the Hindu culture is not the same as destroying obstacles in the Yoruba culture...

 

This is the problem with just doing some random searches on the internet or trying to create a spiritual discipline from generalities from a book.

 

If you are working with dieties, again it is best to pick ONE diety at a time, Because each diety relates to different organs, and energy centers. Again.. Dieties are given personalities for a reason. Not all people get along well. If you sre invoking two different dieties from different cultures, you need to be sure they will get along. Always best to seek qualified instruction. If you randomly pick traditions, dieties etc... you are at best confusing the energies you invoke and at worst can be causing yourself great harm.

When we go to a doctor and get prescribed medication, we take that pretty seriously. For the same reason that we do not mix prescription medication without asking a physician's advice, we should not mix traditions, mantras and energy practices haphazardly or without guidance...

Edited November 24, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[r.w.smith]

 

Rat Temple Rajastan

Edited November 24, 2009 by r.w.smith

[Trunk]

The question here is... IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, in your point of view, is this deity I am invoking simply a characteristic energetic potential latent in myself which I am trying to awaken by concentration and psycho-physical practices driven by intent? OR is this deity an actual entity unto himself, who is pleased with my intent and actually goes about helping me.

ime, it's the latter.

... not to try and convince anyone. It's important to track along within the integrity of your own experience, yet be open enough to experience newly.

[C T]

You ask very good questions.

 

I have experience in both the yoruba and yogic traditions. I cannot speak to the tibetan tradition, but others have done so already. I am speaking from painful experience here when I say...

 

It's best not to mix practices or traditions unless you really know what you are doing. Pick one technique from one tradition from a reliable resource and then stick with it and follow instructions. There are alot of mantras easily available. But remember that sanskrit mantras are very powerful and should not be played with without real commitment. If you choose one, do so mindfully and stick with it for the prescribed amount of time until the mantra has achieved it's effect. This will insure success and also not "anger" or confuse the energies you are stimulating.

 

In terms of Ganesha, He is directly related to the Root Chakra. So, when you chant to Ganesha, you are activating the Root chakra and the Earth Element. Ogun is from the Yoruba tradition and is connected to the Metal Element. It is not advisable to intermix these dieties. They break obstacles in different ways and should not be intermixed. If you are working with dieties, again it is best to pick ONE diety at a time, Because each diety relates to different organs, and energy centers. Again.. Dieties are given personalities for a reason. Not all people get along well. If you sre invoking two different dieties from different cultures, you need to be sure they will get along. Always best to seek qualified instruction. If you randomly pick traditions, dieties etc... you are at best confusing the energies you invoke and at worst can be causing yourself great harm.

When we go to a doctor and get prescribed medication, we take that pretty seriously. For the same reason that we do not mix prescription medication without asking a physician's advice, we should not mix traditions, mantras and energy practices haphazardly or without guidance...

Great advice 5ET. The key word is purification, not phantasmic experimentation, which could be very very hard to undo. Responsible Tibetan teachers always lovingly warn students that the practice of esoterica should not be adopted haphazardly, for once committed, its like a snake being put into a bamboo pipe - be difficult to reverse the decisions and actions. In the East, its hard-pressed to hear of anyone mixing traditions and practices. Its better to keep one's practice as pure as possible, for very obvious reasons, some of which you have clearly highlighted above.