The Human Problem

[Jing Attiig]

23/11/2009

 

The Human Problem

 

The human brain is a programmed machine. It serves the function of interpreting and storing electrical signals or information so as to provide a means to exist more and more economically in accord with the information that enters through the senses.

 

Simply put, it evolves the human experience by adapting to the requirements of the environment.

 

Our brains are being purposefully programmed with information that is designed in a particular fashion, and, doing as it has been created to do, the brain evolves in accordance with that information.

 

But what if that information has been designed to de-evolve the brain, to make access to its functioning more and more limited and therefore limit the human experience to only a fraction of its true capability.

 

One would have to be concerned at this prospect.

 

When focused on thought, One is functioning within a very limited spectrum of light. All the programs and fears and problems of the human existence exist here, in thought.

 

And so, obviously, the solution must be 'not in thought''.

 

If that is where all the problems lie, ALL OF THEM, then the solution cannot exist there, and so then, it is a simple solution, one that exists outside of thought.

 

Outside of thought, is an unlimited capacity. And the marvelous functioning of the brain serves that as one leaves the dimensions of thought, all the problems and fears that exist there also leave. Simply put, everything sorts itself out. And the true capacity of the brains functioning returns. One becomes unlimited.

 

Each and every problem that you have, only exists within thought. The very second you leave thought, you leave the problem also.

 

The trees and the wind and the birds will not even bother about your problem, and your breath cares not for myriad things. When an infinte world of existence lies just outside your head, why waste time worrying of the dust, of ancient out-of-date thinking ?

 

www.taowushin.com

[Marblehead]

23/11/2009

 

When an infinte world of existence lies just outside your head, why waste time worrying of the dust, of ancient out-of-date thinking ?

 

www.taowushin.com

 

Exactly my question. When our beliefs no longer hold true why would we want to continue to hold to these beliefs?

 

Peace & Love!

[宁]

because they are familliar??

[Marblehead]

because they are familliar??

 

Good try but I don't buy it. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

Exactly my question. When our beliefs no longer hold true why would we want to continue to hold to these beliefs?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Why not? You have not changed that much have you? Do you not have any principles? You know, the way of a sage is living through his principles, right? The narrow path. Walking the thin line. This is the way of the great sage. Not picking berries, my new friend.

 

Chapter 2

 

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises

When it knows good as good, evil arises

Thus being and non-being produce each other

Difficult and easy bring about each other

Long and short reveal each other

High and low support each other

Music and voice harmonize each other

Front and back follow each other

Therefore the sages:

Manage the work of detached actions

Conduct the teaching of no words

They work with myriad things but do not control

They create but do not possess

They act but do not presume

They succeed but do not dwell on success

It is because they do not dwell on success

That it never goes away

Edited December 5, 2009 by Janell

[Marblehead]

Why not? You have not changed that much have you? Do you not have any principles? You know, the way of a sage is living through his principles, right? The narrow path. Walking the thin line. This is the way of the great sage. Not picking berries, my new friend.

 

Now you have a point of discussion. Yes, indeed, I have principles by which I live my life. But they are based on what I have seen, experienced on my own, and what I believe to be so through observation and reasoning.

 

So yes, I do walk the narrow path (now - Hehehe) but I will not hesitate to walk off the main path to pick and eat the lovely berries I see along the way. Isn't the Sage the one who lives his/her life spontaneously?

 

Reminds me of the story of the Sage walking in the forest. (I hope I get the story fairly accurate.)

 

The Sage is walking alone in the forest just enjoying his walk and the things he sees in nature when suddenly he realizes that he is being stalked by a tiger. He quickens his pace and so does the tiger. Suddenly the Sage comes upon a cliff. He can go no further. The tiger continues to approach. The Sage looks over the cliff and there below are two more tigers appearing to be very hungry.

 

But there, growing up the cliff is a vine so the Sage decides to climb down the vine a short way out of the reach of the tiger coming toward him but yet no so far down that the tigers below can get him.

 

So there he is, clinging to the vine when appears a rat and it begins naughing on the vine. The sage realized that the end is near. While looking for a possible escape his eyes set on a couple very ripe strawberries. With one hand clinging to the vine that is about to be eaten through which will result in his falling to the tigers below he reaches out, picks the two strawberries and eats them. "How Delicious!" exclaims the Sage.

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

Ah. Good story! I remember that one. I think though that he was making the best out of disaster. I doubt he changed his principles ... and maybe those were his principles. To make the best out of life. But the best isn't always easy. It is the high road .... eh?

 

Spontaneously? I don't think so. They live in the moment. Time is nothing to the great sage. One minute could be a thousand years, so what's the rush, right?

 

What I have learned through my own observations my new friend, is that we never know .... what the next second will bring. We alone are at the mercy of this great and wonderful thing, we call life ...

 

Love and Peace to you,

Janell

[Marblehead]

Spontaneously? I don't think so. They live in the moment. Time is nothing to the great sage. One minute could be a thousand years, so what's the rush, right?

Love and Peace to you,

Janell

 

Yeah. That is what I am trying to say but have not yet properly expressed myself.

 

Living in the moment is spontaneous living. Adapting to the events and conditions of the moment. Movement while standing still. (Experiencing life without the passage of time - time doesn't matter.)

 

I didn't mean to suggest that the Sage changed his principles. The strawberries would have been eaten even in the absence of the tigers. In fact, at the moment the tigers and the rat didn't matter. Only the strawberries mattered. Simply to enjoy what life had offered.

 

(I might get my thoughts clearly stated eventually. Hehehe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

Yep. Getting a thought expressed is a delicate matter and it can also get you kicked off a forum! hehe

 

Janell

[Marblehead]

Yep. Getting a thought expressed is a delicate matter and it can also get you kicked off a forum! hehe

 

Janell

 

 

You need to get over that, you know. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

Oh yes! I do know!

 

Peace and Love to you too!

[Marblehead]

Oh yes! I do know!

 

Peace and Love to you too!

 

Thanks.

 

Okay. What are we talking about here? Yeah, The Human Problem. Specifically the human brain.

 

I agree. When we are young our brain is programmed so that we bcome a part of 'our' society, holdinhg 'our' beliefs and morals.

 

I suppose that is why Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu suggested that we need to unlearn all the illusions, delusions and out-right falsehoods that have been taught us through the years.

 

It is only then that we can begin to live our natural life.

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

You are right! It is difficult to untie the knots though. Projection, is a tricky thing. It would be like a cat, knowing that he is a cat. Or a bear, knowing that he could rip you to shreds, if all he had to do was wanted to.

 

So I'm not so sure we can unlearn anything. I think, we just have to learn better, wouldn't you agree? Follow our principles to the best of our ability, at the moment, and understand that it is a process ... just like everything else.

 

Nice conversation btw, MarbleHead

 

Peace.

Janell

Edited December 7, 2009 by Janell

[Marblehead]

You are right! It is difficult to untie the knots though. Projection, is a tricky thing. It would be like a cat, knowing that he is a cat. Or a bear, knowing that he could rip you to shreds, if all he had to do was wanted to.

 

So I'm not so sure we can unlearn anything. I think, we just have to learn better, wouldn't you agree? Follow our principles to the best of our ability, at the moment, and understand that it is a process ... just like everything else.

 

Nice conversation btw, MarbleHead

 

Peace.

Janell

 

Well, shucks! Thank you for joining the conversation. A discussion with only one person involved is rather boring, I assure you. Hehehe.

 

I will partically agree with you second paragraph. Although I believe that we can unlearn, I will agree with you that it will be very difficult and maybe even impossible for some folks to do this. Generally Speaking, the older we get the harder it is for us to change. And this would be especially true regarding things like our moral beliefs.

 

And I agree that learning better is an important aspect of this whole subject matter. Is what we have been told logical? And reasonable? Are there facts to back up what was told us? Questions like these will keep us from accepting nonsense.

 

But on the other hand, if a belief helps us deal with 'our' life then I will suggest that changing may well not serve us well so we might just want to hold to what works for us. I think I can safely say that most of us have our illusions and delusions. Most likely they help us deal with 'our reality'. It wouldn't be wise to suddenly discard those illusions and delusions and land in negativity and depression.

 

So we do need to consider our environment and those 'others' who directly effect our life.

 

Choices! Isn't life great?

 

Peace & Love!

[Janell]

Edited December 7, 2009 by Janell

[Marblehead]

[OneSeeker]

The human brain is a programmed machine. It serves the function of interpreting and storing electrical signals or information so as to provide a means to exist more and more economically in accord with the information that enters through the senses.

 

I'm astonished that no one here has objected to this statement. Just for the record: Humans are not machines, no part of the human is a machine, unless we choose to make it so, to let the pharmaceutical-industrial complex persuade us so.

 

"I am a child of the Earth and of the starry Heaven."

[Quillan Camper]

I had to go back and read what I had said about change:

 

... the older we get the harder it is for us to change.

 

You're mentioning it reminded me of something I have to go look for to quote ... ... found it!

 

TTC, Chapter 76, Lin Yutang translation:

 

While alive, the body is soft and pliant.

When dead, it is hard and rigid.

All living things, grass and trees,

While alive, are soft and supple.

When dead, become dry and brittle.

Thus that which is hard and stiff

Is the follower of death.

That which is soft and yielding

Is the follower of life.

 

And this I understand to say the unchanging is the companion of death while the changing is the companion of life.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Err ... excuse me. Might I register a mild protest at that ageist remark: "... the older we get the harder it is for us to change." Older people, and I've been called "old timer" on this forum, might feel hurt by this slighting judgment, this vast and unfounded generalisation, this injudicious criticism of a condition that will come to all of us as surely as death. Sorry for the interjection.

[Quillan Camper]

I'm astonished that no one here has objected to this statement. Just for the record: Humans are not machines, no part of the human is a machine, unless we choose to make it so, to let the pharmaceutical-industrial complex persuade us so.

 

"I am a child of the Earth and of the starry Heaven."

 

Honestly, I don't know we can ever be so sure what we are. It is, on the other hand, always a little disconcerting when a vehement claim is made for one view or another. Mechanistic or idealistic, a viewpoint is always merely that. The wise man standing by the elephant's tail will be absolutely certain that the world is a rope with a tassel at the end; the wise man standing by the elephant's leg will swear no part of the world is like a tassled rope (what an offensive thought!), it is, of course, a column; etc. You get the picture? The wisest man will caution himself with the terrible doubt that he doesn't have the full picture on reality and never will have. As human beings, all we have is language, metaphor, myth and imagination; what else are our convictions founded upon - divine revelation? Get out of town! So okay, we are made of star stuff. Scientists tell us that without the complex atomic material generated by supernovae there would be no flesh and bone to be us. In the same way, there would be no porridge. I don't see the essential difference between saying we are made of the same stuff as stars and that we are made of porridge. Being star children rather than porridge children just sounds better. Bit of preening in front of the mirror going on there, perhaps. Look at me, look at me. What am I like? Well, never mind the starry heaven. If anything, we are made of God stuff. There is nothing else for anything to be made of, n'est-ce pas? And anyway, what's so wrong about being a machine. It's just a metaphor, as in "The Ghost in the Machine" argument:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_r6_GGv3U

 

On the other hand, someone said, "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it( like a machine), we would be so simple that we couldn't."

 

So, I agree with your gut feeling about the brain. BTW, I hope you find the One you seek. Shouldn't be difficult. The One can't be very far where anywhere you happen to be.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Quillan Camper

[OneSeeker]

Bit of preening in front of the mirror going on there, perhaps. Look at me, look at me. What am I like? Well, never mind the starry heaven. If anything, we are made of God stuff. There is nothing else for anything to be made of, n'est-ce pas? And anyway, what's so wrong about being a machine. It's just a metaphor, as in "The Ghost in the Machine" argument:

 

On the other hand, someone said, "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it( like a machine), we would be so simple that we couldn't."

 

So, I agree with your gut feeling about the brain. BTW, I hope you find the One you seek. Shouldn't be difficult. The One can't be very far where anywhere you happen to be.

 

I appreciate your thoughtful response to my rather hasty comment. I guess I have a rather sore spot on this general topic and reacted, well, mechanically.

 

That said, I must still say that if there's anything at all that I know about the physical realm, it's that humans are not machines (no living thing is a machine), and it's harmful to all of us for anyone to believe we are.

 

What it boils down to is that machines have no souls. Some people who want to be considered "scientific" appear willing to accept the mechanistic/materialistic claim that souls don't exist. This claim is untrue. How do I know? There's a soul right here, now, speaking to me, communicating with you.

 

We can calculate the value of a soulless thing by the use we can make of it or the profit we can make from it. But how do we calculate the value of a soul? The economists and MBAs and mining executives and drug marketers and war planners don't try, and look what it's doing to our world.

 

That's why the "I am a child of the Earth and of the starry Heaven": Never let anyone forget that the divine (Heaven and Earth) is in every human. A machine is much less than a human, so if we treat others like machines, we're treating them as less than human. And if we allow ourselves to be treated like machines, we're conspiring in our own enslavement.

[Jing Attiig]

an atom is programmed to function as an atom - a tree is programmed to function as a tree - a brains programmed function is to be continously programmed by environmental/experiential input.

 

there is only one living thing in all of existence, and that is infinite spirit - undistinguished and undefinable TAO - everything else is programmed illusion - 'matter', which is itself immaterial ie. illusory

 

everything other than the 'aware animating force' is programmed to be what is - functioning perfectly as it is needed to function - and it is incapable of being anything other than the perfectly programmed expression of TAO.

 

do you think that you have a body that is alive ?

 

do you think the molecules and atoms of a 'machine' are any different to the molecules and atoms of a 'human' body ?

 

all of these concepts exist within an infinitely complex entanglement of human thought all of which are illusory, all of which hold you from observing as close to immediate perception of Mind as is possible as a human being - ie. 'awake' - and not one of those thoughts is capable of being awake or even alive.

 

the only living thing in the universe is the "aware animating force" that is beyond the concept of TAO - that is you - and that cannot be defined, grasped or understood.

 

All those who comment here seem to understand perfectly - the Tao which cannot be explained, interpreted, grasped or understood - this is not the eternal TAO - it is simply the self-centred desperate pursuit of thoughts scrambling to be significant. Me Me Me.

 

Not a single being in all of existence has ever grasped TAO.

 

Belief - memory - understandinng - intellect - opinion - views - judgements are all simply self arguing with self - illusion - a result of the environmental programming of the human brain - labelled 'thought'. While you are focused on watching 'thinking' you will not directly percieve 'Mind that is not Mind' - you will percieve illusory concept after illusory concept after illusory concept all scrambling for significance - because you are stuck within your tiny little head - thinking.

 

All the illusions 'to be unlearned' are 'unlearned' the very moment you step outside of your head' for outside of your head there is 'no-thing' in existence.

 

"what is the sound that cannot be distinguished ?"

 

The moment you think - you fall into dreaming.

 

Sweet dreams - to all who think they know.

 

www.taowushin.com

[Z3N]

[Russell-NWIA]

Thinking is tricky stuff. To a large extent I agree with what you are saying. The problem is a well known one but how then does one deal with the pervasive and perhaps innate drive to think? Suppression isn't a good bet, it occupies just as much energy to shut the mind down and is still a distraction.

 

Think of the mind like a child. I wouldn't tell a child not to play and explore, that is it's nature and it would be cruel to deny it. From my point of view it is also the nature of the mind to think. That's it's thing so let it analyze a catalog away. However, that doesn't mean I need to sit there and watch it's process.

 

Try to keep it simple. Anytime a thought grabs your attention, notice that you are thinking it and then turn your intent back to whatever it is you are doing and where ever it is you are.

 

-Russell

Northwest Internal Arts

[healerman88]

jing attig- how do know whether or not someone that nobody's heard about, that didn't care anyway, attained perfect harmony with the dao?

 

do you think somebody could do it if they became an immortal and returned to the source? or would it send them back because they were too caught up in their own self-development?

[Jing Attiig]

jing attig- how do know whether or not someone that nobody's heard about, that didn't care anyway, attained perfect harmony with the dao?

 

do you think somebody could do it if they became an immortal and returned to the source? or would it send them back because they were too caught up in their own self-development?

 

anyone that you know about, or think you know about, does not exist separately from the tao, and does not exist separately from you. all things are one with the tao - from the smallest of ants apparently living only a few days to the oldest of immortals apparently living 1000's of years.

 

only one'self can 'perceive' perfect harmony with the tao - and only at the point of 'no-perception'. in the space of 'no-perception' one will not perceive of any other being in existence as at this point there is simply, only one, and that ons is Tao.

 

returning to the source is itself illusory as there has only ever been one location in existence - the source or the end - it's all one. nothing returns to the tao because nothing leaves the tao, though if one were to 'return to the source', that very same source is actually one with 'the one returning to the source', anything that happens from there onward is completely at one with itself, no matter what happens.

 

"ALL FINDING EMPTINESS AT 'THE END' - EMPTINESS SIMPLY BEING THE 'SOURCE-POTENTIAL' OF ALL. EMPTINESS AND 'THE END' BEING ILLUSORY CONCEPTS - LISTEN FOR THE SOUND BENEATH STILL FEET ?"

Edited June 12, 2010 by Jing Attiig