What is so "special" about full lotus?

[lifeforce]

I don't know why but I have never had any trouble getting into full lotus, ever.

Must be a flexibility thing.

I sit in it to meditate, to recite, to read books and sutras, to watch tv, listen to music, whatever.

I find it very comfortable and very relaxing for the mind as well as the body.

[Mark Foote]

I've been doing a lot of reading and i always come across an emphasis on full lotus by many teachers through different forms and styles.

 

What exactly is so "special" about full lotus?

 

What benefits distinguish it so remarkably from other meditation poses besides the horrible pain at the beginning?

 

I'm really curious about this, because it seems to be one of those things around the forum that many say "just do", but nobody really explains why one should create the motivation to regularly utilize the pose and its assumed benefits.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Hi, effilang (hey, bums),

 

Are you familiar with cranial-sacral osteopathy? Allopathic medicine has yet to acknowledge that there is a significant respiration in the changes of fluid-volume in the dural sac (around the brain and spinal cord and all the way to the tailbone), but I think Sutherland was onto something. Upledger convinced me, through his writings.

 

ok, cut to the chase, the volume of fluid changes in the tissue sack that surrounds the brain, according to Upledger about 14 times a minute. Pressure changes in a closed system are instantaneous throughout the system, per hydraulics. The spine flexes and extends with the changes in fluid, and the arms and legs rotate inward and outward. The sacrum pivots on the pelvis, forward and back, side to side on the diagonals, and even around the vertical axis of the spine. The sphenoid and occiput in the skull flex and extend. The nerves that control the changes in fluid volume are in the sagittal suture, at the top of the skull.

 

When you sit the lotus, you isolate the movement of the sacrum on the pelvis. You can observe the stretches in the ligaments between the sacrum and the sit-bones of the pelvis, between the sacrum and the tuberosities of the pelvis in front on either side, and between the sacrum and the pelvis. You can observe actions in the muscles of the legs and pelvis that occur involuntarily as a result of these stretches, and the reciprocity of actions between paired muscles. You can observe action initiated by the cranial-sacral rhythm through the stretch of ligaments between the sacrum and the pelvis.

 

"The empty hand grasps the hoe-handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still." Fuxi, approx. 500 C.E.

 

Yes, consciousness is the bridge, yet the right amount of openness to feelings of pain and the right amount of detachment from the pleasant is necessary if we are to sink and realize our involuntary motion; I myself needed a way to say, yes, this is part of the stretch in existence as my consciousness occurred just now, so that I could relax and stay open. I can sit the lotus, usually 30-40 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes at night. Sometimes my feet go to sleep, less so as I realize that I belong to these respirations and this consciousness, they do not belong to me. So to speak.

 

I think my explanation is more straightfoward at the website below my signature; thanks, all, have a good night-

 

yers Mark

[Mark Foote]

(sorry for the repeat!)

Edited December 2, 2009 by Mark Foote

[Pheurton Skeurto]

Biff,

if you mean J.C when you say Pak John,I have a lot of reasons to beleive that he relays in Full Lotus,as Level 1 Lotus meditation is an exersice for life regardless the Level achieved.

There was another thread few months ago about the Full Lotus position and a lot was written.

In Inner alchemy the full lotus must be used in combination of certain mudras. Although half lotus is more easier and also the simple cross leg stance,you have a lot of unlocked points that redirect the chi to be wasted or circulated among the body instend to be stored in Dan Tien .

In general I agree with drewhempel , one unit of achievment in full lotus, needs 3 times more time in half lotus and 20 times more time when just X-legged.

From the other hand ,full lotus is just the one way that you have to follow depending on goals and school that followed.

 

I was going to drum up a reply to this thread, but Chen has pretty much nailed it. It also has to do with pressure in the upper portion of your body (and maintaining that pressure). Also, women can generally get away with 1/2 Lotus in all schools, whereas us guys have to go all the way. Bummer for us.

[Mark Foote]

I've been doing a lot of reading and i always come across an emphasis on full lotus by many teachers through different forms and styles.

 

What exactly is so "special" about full lotus?

 

What benefits distinguish it so remarkably from other meditation poses besides the horrible pain at the beginning?

 

I'm really curious about this, because it seems to be one of those things around the forum that many say "just do", but nobody really explains why one should create the motivation to regularly utilize the pose and its assumed benefits.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

This morning a second question has occurred to me, and that is: why do they sit 40-50 minutes in the lotus, when most hatha yoga postures are only assumed briefly?

 

My answer would be, because we work loose, first the sacrospinous ligaments, then the sacro-tuberous ligaments, and finally the sacro-ilial ligaments. We work loose by settling in and accepting the stretch that already exists as consciousness takes place, relaxing as we breath in and out. When we have feeling over the surface of the whole body, then the impact of consciousness and feeling sits, the hit in "just hit sit", or shikantaza.

 

Equanimity toward pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings is a part of this. Equanimity and relaxation in the face of the involuntary reciprocal innervation of muscle pairs around the pelvis and the sacrum and throughout the body takes a little time to come on, after the humdrum of our daily habit.

 

I would remind everybody of Cheng Man-Ching's description of the fourth stage in the development of chi: chi penetrates to the skin and hair. Likewise, the Gautamid described the fourth of the initial jhanas as purified equanimity, the cessation of volition in in-breaths and out-breaths, and as feeling like "a strip of cloth wrapped around the head and the entire body".

 

For me, I walk on my feet sitting down, until I feel the exchange between my upper legs and my sacrum under the pelvis, kind of the forward angles of "the ox crosses the wooden bridge". With luck I can let go and ride the wind, as it were. The wind gets up, when it's time; that's how it goes for me, and I usually sit between 30 and 50 minutes. A little numb in the top foot when I get up.

 

Answering questions people don't ask, for myself, of course! Thank you; Mark

Edited December 3, 2009 by Mark Foote

[orb]

This morning a second question has occurred to me, and that is: why do they sit 40-50 minutes in the lotus, when most hatha yoga postures are only assumed briefly?

 

My answer would be, because we work loose, first the sacrospinous ligaments, then the sacro-tuberous ligaments, and finally the sacro-ilial ligaments. We work loose by settling in and accepting the stretch that already exists as consciousness takes place, relaxing as we breath in and out. When we have feeling over the surface of the whole body, then the impact of consciousness and feeling sits, the hit in "just hit sit", or shikantaza.

 

Equanimity toward pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings is a part of this. Equanimity and relaxation in the face of the involuntary reciprocal innervation of muscle pairs around the pelvis and the sacrum and throughout the body takes a little time to come on, after the humdrum of our daily habit.

 

I would remind everybody of Cheng Man-Ching's description of the fourth stage in the development of chi: chi penetrates to the skin and hair. Likewise, the Gautamid described the fourth of the initial jhanas as purified equanimity, the cessation of volition in in-breaths and out-breaths, and as feeling like "a strip of cloth wrapped around the head and the entire body".

 

For me, I walk on my feet sitting down, until I feel the exchange between my upper legs and my sacrum under the pelvis, kind of the forward angles of "the ox crosses the wooden bridge". With luck I can let go and ride the wind, as it were. The wind gets up, when it's time; that's how it goes for me, and I usually sit between 30 and 50 minutes. A little numb in the top foot when I get up.

 

Answering questions people don't ask, for myself, of course! Thank you; Mark

 

That's some good stuff, sir, both posts . Did you figure it out all by yourself or do you follow somebody's teaching if you don't mind me asking?

[Mark Foote]

That's some good stuff, sir, both posts . Did you figure it out all by yourself or do you follow somebody's teaching if you don't mind me asking?

Thank you for asking. I thought it would just come to me for a long time after I first had the experience of "zazen getting up and walking around" You can read about it in the anecdotes at Kobun anecdotes (under Mark Foote), if you're interested. I finally started to study physiology and kinesthesiology, when I realized I still couldn't sit the lotus five years later. I read the pain series books by Dr. Rene Calliet, some materials at UCSF library, and eventually discovered the books of Dr. John Upledger on cranial-sacral work. A book from Dr. Raymond Richard on "lesions of the sacrum" (I think?) was also amazing, talking about the pivots of the sacrum.

 

The notion of reciprocal innervation based on the sense of location in the occurrence of consciousness is the basis for my practice now; I think the description I give in translations of motion in the lotus is mostly correct. Hard it is to recognize all this and still let go, but probably that's like layman Pang's family, in "Zen Letters: the teaching of Yuanwu", by Cleary; dad says is really difficult, like climbing a greased tree; mom says it's easy, like the dew on 10, 000 blades of grass; and daughter says it's neither difficult nor easy, it's just eating when your hungry and sleeping when you're tired. Yuanwu says often we pick one or the other as right, but they are all true.

 

Forgot to mention that I also purchased the sutta volumes from Pali text society in 1985, and read them. That's my grounding. No formal student-teacher relationship, ever; my idea was that I should find a way to teach myself, that others could benefit from as well. Help develop a vocabulary that everybody could relate to, to communicate the gist. Open source wisdom?

 

... he he, as Marblehead is prone to say.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Mark Foote

[gendao]

Energetically, I believe it's also used primarily for alchemy since it collects energy in the dantian while impeding qi flow down through the legs. Which then makes the path of lesser resistance up the du mai (MCO) or chong mai (kundalini).

Here's some support for this:

Because there is only a thin layer of muscle on the tailbone, the Qi vessel there is narrow, and can easily be obstructed. Once you have built up a lot of Qi in the Lower Dan Tian and are ready to start circulating it, the tailbone cavity must be open, or the Qi might flow into the legs. Since you are only a beginner, you might not know how to lead the Qi back to its original path. If the Qi stagnates in the legs it could cause problems, perhaps even paralysis of the legs. This danger can be prevented it you sit with your legs crossed during meditation, which will narrow the Qi path from your Lower Dan Tian to the legs and prevent Qi from overflowing downward.

In short, you're damming the downward path to passively "force" the qi to go upwards, instead. Since the first neidan goal is basically to open the microcosmic orbit, there's no point in sending qi down below it into the leg channels. The Ren & Du Mai are all up in the torso, not legs. There's "nothing significant" down there. In fact, most of the key channels and centers are all in the torso and head. So, it would make alchemical sense to contain the qi more to these areas. The more you can concentrate your qi into these key areas...probably the more efficient you are... Edited June 30, 2010 by vortex

[Mark Foote]

[SonOfTheGods]

bump for the nay-sayers

[ion]

For deep meditation for long periods of time the lotus is the most stable and practical of all the positions.

 

From when I first started meditation I have made an effort or a goal to sit in the lotus, and from very early on I could see the practicality of it.

 

I could also see, whether it exists or not, the evolution of its origination from sitting in the natural cross legged pretzle style or what we were old was "Indian style" in kindergarten,  to Burmese style to half lotus to full lotus.

 

Each of those is the next practical progression of the one listed before it If you were trying to sit for a very long period of time. Each causes both a particular discomfort and feeling of imbalance after sitting in it for a while that could e a condition of initiating the next step.

 

For instance Burmese is extremely uncomfortable for me both in the knees and in the ankles where they contact the ground. So it makes sense to bring that foot onto the lap and from there it makes sense to tuck the other under the butt, voila half lotus.

 

Half lotus makes you feel unbalanced and the foot tucked under the butt begins to hurt from pressure and from contact with the ground so it is logical to switch which foot goes on the lap, and eventually it seems logical to sit on a branch or a rock with something soft on it and to place both feet on the lap voila full lotus.

 

This may not be appearent if you're used to sitting on level ground with all kinds of cushions, but when your sitting on the hard ground or in the forest on a regular basis.

 

And as it turns out for me at least it is by far the most comfortable position. Discomfort in the legs is not usually why I end  sitting session anymore. I don't know why I end a session usually any more.

 

Once your comfortable in the lotus you feel tucked in. Your legs feet and everything involved,feel,less like legs and ffeet. It feels strange and indistinct and as such easier to forget you are a body or a thing with a form. Also you are more likely to sit for longer periods of time if for know other reason than just the work involved in getting on done. For me at least this is when most of the discomfort sets in when I get entangled and the "painful"tingles and discomfort sets in. I have however come up with a way to pretty quickly "wake " my legs and feet back up by alternating between squatting and stretching a couple times.

 

But if the thought arises to getup or be done some times I quickly reflect on what it takes to get in and out of of full lotus and decide to give it more time.

 

As for the discomfort while sitting though. There is something about overcoming the physical discomfort of any seated position and finding comfort anyway.

 

From the beging til now I have known that I could not establish comfort in the body by making adjustments of posture so I have always told myself to get over it and just focus on relaxing everything, and that is the key to finding true and profound comfort. Some people while sitting are continually adjusting which tome shows they are believe comfort can be established byforce but that thought and action will come back again and again if acted on or believed in so you see them sniffing and shuffling over and over again. So they are never actually getting or being comfortable let alone "just sitting".

 

Point being for sitting long periods it's best to find a posture that is balanced and as little contact with the ground as possible. 

 

Move any twigs, seeds, or rocks out of the way, balance yourself in a way you won't fall apart and impulse stillness and flow on that action until until it naturally stops.

 

 

Laying down promotes discomfort, in particular where the comfort of a Matt or cushion are not naturally provided, plus the spine is not resting vertebrae atop vertabre perfectly aligned wit the pull of gravity. Ones spine and head don't flow withered breeze like grass or a balloon while laying down, so laying down is also a posture that promotes resistance.

 

Not to knock any form for what it does because every posture I've sat in for long periods seems to bring a certain energy or has a different effect at least it seems that way to me.

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, ion said:

 

As for the discomfort while sitting though. There is something about overcoming the physical discomfort of any seated position and finding comfort anyway.

 

 

... From the beginning til now I have known that I could not establish comfort in the body by making adjustments of posture so I have always told myself to get over it and just focus on relaxing everything, and that is the key to finding true and profound comfort.

 

... Not to knock any form for what it does because every posture I've sat in for long periods seems to bring a certain energy or has a different effect at least it seems that way to me.

 

 

Very amazing, to read this thread again after nine years.
 

Along the lines you describe, ion, may I offer something from my latest post:

Recently I read a forum post by a piano teacher (and life coach), who said that it's hard to leave old habits behind because of muscle memory. I agree with him that there is muscle memory involved, but at least as far as old habits in sitting, there's also the panic of the suffocation response. Sooner or later, I begin to feel like the posture is affecting my ability to breathe, and there's a certain anxiety associated with that. Knowing about the suffocation response helps me to realize how much I need to emphasize relaxation, if I want to overcome old habits.

Seated meditation has been described as "straightening the chest and sitting precariously". Precariousness in posture also gives rise to anxiety, yet if calm prevails, precariousness can bring forward the senses behind the feeling of place in awareness.

 

If you're interested, you can find the rest here.

As to what really goes on behind the tailbone and sacrum and along the spine, I hope I have some science here.

 

[ion]

Awesome, thanks!

 

Sometimes I go down to the bluffs above the crashing waves and sit in the lotus on a narrow ledge for that Very reason. I have an irrational fear of heights so I try to relax in an uncomfortable position that causes anxiety.

 

Some times I'll st on a branch in a tree or on a fallen log with the branch or log beneath my ankles and my knees hanging off ether side resting on nothing for the same reason.

 

I will check out the reads.

[Orion]

Your seating position doesn't matter as long as you're doing the inner work.

 

Personally I have always found half lotus a lot more comfortable than crossed legs or full lotus. I have naturally very narrow hips so it's more accommodating to let one leg swing a bit looser.

 

There's not much point in being attached to classical imagery of what meditation "should look like". Yes, it's true, some positions offer better energetic structures, but on the whole it can be a little proscribed if you're not careful. I've had some wonderful meditations from sitting in chairs an even on couches with soft backings that you sink right into.

[Mark Foote]

I agree, Orion, and I've had the same experience--any posture is the place to start.

 

That said, there's also this:

 

In the recently published "Embracing Mind", Kobun Otogawa is quoted as saying he never had pain in the lotus (or just a trace, in his knees). In fact, he said he sat the lotus to stay out of pain. 

I once heard Kobun say, "Take your time with the lotus". I think what he meant by that was, take whatever time you need, but learn to sit the lotus without pain.

 

(that's from here)

 

 

For me, there's a lot involved in sitting the lotus.  It's unquestionably a stretch, and relaxing into reciprocal activity generated in the the stretch, but it's also a particular opening to the senses.  At least, that's my experience, and I'm good for 35 minutes either side now in the lotus without pain, and can sit 40 at home.  That only took 50 years, from when I couldn't sit  with my legs crossed in any position, but I'm hopeful that what I have written about my experience might shorten that time for others.  And you're right again, sitting the lotus wasn't the biggest deal so far, but it's helpful in everyday life.

[ion]

22 hours ago, Orion said:

 I have naturally very narrow hips so it's more accommodating to let one leg swing a bit looser.

My legs are as thin as you can get. I used to say the same thing, that because my thighs were so thin that I could not properly and hence, comfortable sit in the lotus.

 

But with some diligence I found that I could. I was sitting in the half lotus position up until 2 years ago. From the time that I could sit in the lotus til now I have made and continue to make progress. 

 

At this point my feet sit on my lap just fine, with the bottoms up at the top of my legs again,st the abdomen. 

 

If your thin you have to PRACTICE to pull your knees closer togeather while pulling your feet up higher and out.

 

I have considered that making a continual effort with continual progress is the right view, right aspiration,  right action, 

right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration of and for sitting meditation.

Edited May 10, 2018 by ion

[silent thunder]

I used these stretches over the last few years to great effect.

Highly recommend them, though some you'll need time to reach into them.

They are not all for use at the beginning of your unfolding.

[ion]

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

I used these stretches over the last few years to great effect.

Highly recommend them, though some you'll need time to reach into them.

They are not all for use at the beginning of your unfolding.

Cool! Or you could say not for use at the beginning of your folding!

 

Something I wanted to ad is that if Tuscany sit in the lotus but want to, take your time, get comfortable in the half lotus and my force anything.

 

You can damage yourself in more than 1 way. Just by sitting in the half lotus position, forcing myself to sit in discomfort for a little longer each session resulted in stretching and pulling of my body that one day when I was , lifting something heavyi dislocated my pelvic bones and couldn't walk for a month. It was very painful.

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, ion said:

Cool! Or you could say not for use at the beginning of your folding!

Ha! love it!  It's odd how once i'm folded and tucked in all comfy in lotus, it feels like unfolding.  Mostly energetically but even physically.  When 'tucked in' there is a deep release I experience in the legs, kua, that emanates up into the abdomen and prompts a deepening of sung and full body release.  It's oddly fun, how folding up the body, unfolds the experiential nature.

 

1 hour ago, ion said:

 

Something I wanted to ad is that if Tuscany sit in the lotus but want to, take your time, get comfortable in the half lotus and my force anything.

This.  This.  This.  Not forcing is paramount.  truly wei, wu wei.

 

Allow the stretches to unfold with the breath and reach into themselves of their own accord. 

And breathe...  breathe...  breathe...  Keep the breath flowing full and easily. 

 

1 hour ago, ion said:

 

You can damage yourself in more than 1 way. Just by sitting in the half lotus position, forcing myself to sit in discomfort for a little longer each session resulted in stretching and pulling of my body that one day when I was , lifting something heavyi dislocated my pelvic bones and couldn't walk for a month. It was very painful.

 

I initially sought full lotus after hearing the benefits touted by people I deeply respected, but it was a long uphill process for me.  Even though I sat on the floor almost exclusively as a child, I have traditionally held energy in my hips and ankles all my life, so full lotus was purely unapproachable for some years;  though half lotus took only a few weeks of gentle... and i stress gentle stretching.

 

Every month or so, I'd try full lotus and see where it was... for years, it was either... no way, or so strained it was useless for any work aside from a short stretch.  No way to sit in that and release.

 

Eventually, given the tight nature of my lower body, and an increasing experience of clarity and bliss anyway... I eventually stopped seeking lotus at all.  I found half lotus comfortable and could now be maintained indefinitely.  Switching legs when they call out.  I had been able to sit full lotus for short times... few minutes at a time, but it was always with effort and strain.  So I let it go.

 

Some years passed and I hadn't even thought about full lotus for a long while.

 

Then one evening, when going to sit, as I folded my legs into half and settled into checking in with the body and my lower leg spoke up and asked to be lifted up into full lotus.  I obliged and found to my surprise, no pressure, no strain and a deep calming groundedness.  I sat for about two hours that day with no issues. 

 

I've had full lotus since then, but don't use it every day in every sit. 

The body calls out when and I respond.

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

When 'tucked in' there is a deep release I experience in the legs, kua, that emanates up into the abdomen and prompts a deepening of sung and full body release. 

 

 

I second that, and I have some specifics.  Let me be the first to say that grasping after specifics is not going to get it, and yet without the specifics my practice didn't seem to get off the ground.

 

First, it's all gravity, so sung (relax) and ch'en (sink).  Helpful to me lately to find gravity wherever my mind lands, and also good training in letting the mind move.  Not to say mind at center isn't a great thing!

 

Cheng Man-ching quotes the classics of Tai Chi:

 

 

Relax the inner abdomen, then the whole body is light and agile.

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 25, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

 

 

Funny stuff, there's nothing really there to relax in the inner abdomen, and yet in my experience sometimes this is exactly the place to relax.

 

Particulars.  The movement of breath in or out shifts the accent in support for the lower spine between the ilio-lumbar ligaments that run vertically from the pelvis to the 4th lumbar vertebrae (in inhalation), and the ilio lumbar ligaments that run horizontally from the pelvis to the 5th lumbar vertebrae (in exhalation). 

The weight resting on the sit-bones shifts the accent in support for the sacrum between the sacro-spinous ligaments and the sacro-tuberous ligaments:

 

 

The stretch of the ligaments generates activity in the muscles of the pelvis that alternates to relieve stretch on the ligaments, and that activity can carry into the quads and hamstrings right to the soles of the feet.  The quads can stretch fascia between the quads and the ilio-tibial bands on the outside of the legs above the knees, adding stretch to the ilio-tibial bands and generating activity in the sartorius muscles:

 

 

 

Stretch in the ilio-tibial bands encourages reciprocation in the sartorious muscles, triggering reciprocation in the tensor muscles (from the ilio-tibial bands to the front of the pelvis) and in the gluts (from the bands to the sacrum and to the lumbodorsal fascia behind the sacrum and the lower spine).

 

The action in the tensors and gluts carries up into the muscles of the abdomen, especially where their fascial connections to the rectus muscles are of equal lengths (2" below the belly-button), and into the lower back, especially opposite the place where the abdominal fascial connections (to the rectus) are of equal length.

 

 

 

There are two mechanisms that stretch the fascia behind the sacrum and the lower back to the rear, to support the lower spine.  The first is that the extensor muscles behind the sacrum are enclosed by bone on three sides, so that when the muscles contract and bulk up, that bulk presses rearward on the facia and effects a stretch behind the sacrum.  The second is that the pressure generated in the abdominal cavity presses rearward on the fascial sheet behind the lower back and effects a stretch behind the lower spine.  

 

My ability to relax and calm down in the lotus depends in part on my ability to realize the way that gravity can support my back in the movement of breath, and in part on my ability to just let the movement of breath be.

 

That's how I sit the lotus.  I had to relearn my posture, and that relearning is ongoing.  How I came up with the science, is another story, but I think I've been pretty lucky.  

Of particular importance to me is the way that activity in the legs returns as stretch behind the sacrum and activity in the lower abdomen, activity that is connected with a pressure that shifts the fascia behind the lower spine slightly to the rear.  Or to put it another way,

"a deep release I experience in the legs, kua, that emanates up into the abdomen and prompts a deepening of sung and full body release."

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Mark Foote

[ion]

Great post!

[ion]

@silent thunder I can relate to your post. Same thing happened with me when I first started sitting,g in lotus. I would try every once in a while but it didn't seem like I was getting anywhere, but ooneday I was preparing to sit half lotus, a sudden prompting to put my other foot up and it just happened.

Edited May 10, 2018 by ion

[Cheshire Cat]

On 25/11/2009 at 1:14 AM, effilang said:

 

What exactly is so "special" about full lotus?

 

What benefits distinguish it so remarkably from other meditation poses besides the horrible pain at the beginning?

 

 

I can sit in full lotus for many hours: I am a full lotus expert.

 

The most important benefit for travelling yogis is that you can hold that position on the bare ground for a long time without pain. You don't necessarily need mats. The common crosslegged position makes you sit on your own bones while in full lotus you're supported by your legs' muscles. You can meditate on a rock without a cushion for example.

 

The second most important benefit is that you look cool like a Buddha.

 

There are no additional benefits.

[ion]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:02 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Very amazing, to read this thread again after nine years.
 

Along the lines you describe, ion, may I offer something from my latest post:

Recently I read a forum post by a piano teacher (and life coach), who said that it's hard to leave old habits behind because of muscle memory. I agree with him that there is muscle memory involved, but at least as far as old habits in sitting, there's also the panic of the suffocation response. Sooner or later, I begin to feel like the posture is affecting my ability to breathe, and there's a certain anxiety associated with that. Knowing about the suffocation response helps me to realize how much I need to emphasize relaxation, if I want to overcome old habits.

Seated meditation has been described as "straightening the chest and sitting precariously". Precariousness in posture also gives rise to anxiety, yet if calm prevails, precariousness can bring forward the senses behind the feeling of place in awareness.

 

If you're interested, you can find the rest here.

As to what really goes on behind the tailbone and sacrum and along the spine, I hope I have some science here.

 

Is the suffocation response something you experience while sitting?

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, ion said:

Is the suffocation response something you experience while sitting?

 

Every sitting, along with the anxiety connected with the precariousness of posture.  Or let me say, what I experience is the necessity to relax and calm down in conjunction with inhalation and exhalation, in order to allow zazen to sit zazen (to use Shunryu Suzuki's turn of phrase).

 

You might like this, details of how I learned about the suffocation response and the death of a Zen teacher I admired.

 

The precariousness for me is mostly about support for the lumbar curve, there from the 3rd lumber vertebrae to the sacrum.  That's why my description of anatomy starts with the ilio-lumbar ligaments, and focuses on the mechanisms by which the fascia behind the lower back is displaced in support of the lumbar spine. 

 

The things that come forward for me when I sit now, I have arrived at through finding the spontaneous breath in the midst of activity, in particular in the midst of the activity that supports the lower back in the movement of breath.  I don't know about anybody else, but for me that requires a recognition that I am staying out of suffocation, and allowing support to be realized of its own accord

 

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Mark Foote