Why do masters keep secrets?

[Marblehead]

that story is similar to another story i have heard.

the tiger wanted to learn how to fight so he asked the cat to teach him. when the tiger grew strong he turned on the cat and chased him across the field untill the cat hid utop a tree. that is one of the skills that the cat never taught the tiger

not word for word but it goes something like that =)

 

Yep. Not necessarily a secret but a means of self-survival.

 

I think that the secrets go to only the most trusted.

 

Hey, in my personal life there are secrets I just don't share with others because it would cause me to become vulnerable to the evil intentions of others.

 

Peace & Love!

[Old Man Contradiction]

You really have to question this. If it's pretty much impossible to distinguish "fake" mind-created signs from the real ones, this really should teach you something. Instead you learn nothing.

 

.......

So in your case, let's say you get some signs that you think are mind-made and false. The lesson you are learning is that you need to rely on the teacher. But that's not the only possible lesson you can learn from this. In fact, this might actually be a very dumb, sheep-like, low-level lesson to learn. What else can you learn?

 

I know that it's not pretty much impossible to distinguish between mind-created signs from the real ones. There is a vivid difference, at least in my experience.

 

Also, the reason many people believe they are experiencing qi (for example), is because the book or their teacher said so. The way I have been taught, is in a way that I am not necessarily looking to do qigong. This way my experience speaks for itself, in and of itself.

[松永道]

You really have to question this. If it's pretty much impossible to distinguish "fake" mind-created signs from the real ones, this really should teach you something. Instead you learn nothing. Instead of understanding emptiness, you just think you need a more reliable detector of authenticity. This means you don't understand the nature of mind and you don't understand how convention is formed and reformed. And if that is the case, you have to wonder: what is the teacher doing for you? What secrets? What are those secrets doing?

 

What is the color Yellow? I've never seen it.

 

Assuming I've never had any contact with anyone who had seen Yellow before, how would I ever learn to recognize or distinguish the color? I could read about it in books. I could imagine what they might be like, in my mind's eye perhaps I can even paint what the color Yellow might be. But how can I ever know for sure?

 

Now lets say I find someone who knows what these colors look like. Can she set me strait then? Yes, but not with more words. I still need the experience. So what we can do is, when we find something Yellow, she can point it out. Ah-ha, so that's Yellow!

 

Now what's the point of learning the color Yellow?

 

...

 

If you want to skip right to the end, then yes, Yellow has nothing to do with emptiness. I could become enlightened without knowledge of Yellow. In this regard, words mean nothing, learning means nothing, so why bother? Lets just wallow in the emptiness we began in and never leave the womb!

 

As you've apparently never undergone the practice of separating reality from illusion, I can understand how from your point of view, it's all the same. But rest assured, imaginary phenomenon and real phenomenon are just as different as dreams are from the waking day. And yet, babies and young children have trouble distinguishing the difference. But they learn to distinguish. Why? Because it's useful. Now, yogis say there is no difference, reality is a dream. Are they right? If they are, does that make distinguishing between dreams and the waking day any less useful?

 

...

 

Now Gold, if I make ask, what is your beef with teachers and learning from others?

[33865_1494798762]

Edited November 29, 2009 by Guest

[Lucky7Strikes]

It's not that masters are keeping secrets, it's more that you just don't know it. Or maybe you aren't asking the right questions. Maybe they are afraid to share their knowledge, for their own sake or for yours.

 

"Secret" implies something unknown. If there weren't any secrets to you, you'd already be omniscient. If someone is purposefully keeping secrets away from you, you wouldn't know it anyway.

 

So really it comes back to you.

 

But on a practical level, safety could be a concern. You don't give big guns to toddlers. And if you do, it's your responsibility. Same with medicine. We see examples with sexual kung fu. The warnings and methods are all there, but people would rather go for "authentic sexual power" .

 

Now with the availability issue, well, they ARE available. You just have to go look for it. It's just a matter of degree of difficulty and luck.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[goldisheavy]

What is the color Yellow? I've never seen it.

 

Assuming I've never had any contact with anyone who had seen Yellow before, how would I ever learn to recognize or distinguish the color? I could read about it in books. I could imagine what they might be like, in my mind's eye perhaps I can even paint what the color Yellow might be. But how can I ever know for sure?

 

I am with you so far.

 

Now lets say I find someone who knows what these colors look like. Can she set me strait then? Yes, but not with more words. I still need the experience. So what we can do is, when we find something Yellow, she can point it out. Ah-ha, so that's Yellow!

 

But how do these other folks know that it's Yellow? Who pointed it out to them? Etc... You get to the problem of infinite regress and the ultimate baselessness of all assertions.

 

Now what's the point of learning the color Yellow?

 

This is a million dollar question right here. And I have a great answer to it.

 

The reason a person seeks spiritual instruction is because one has a problem. The problem that the person experiences expresses itself natively in the language of that person. So if the person didn't know what 'Yellow' was prior to experiencing the problem, the concept of 'Yellow' is completely unnecessary to cure the problem.

 

So in other words, if you believe the biggest and most important power of spiritual practice is emancipation or liberation, new concepts are simply a hindrance and a distraction. One must instead understand and transcend the old, the existing concepts that condition your problem.

 

From a creative and playful point of view, it can be fun to create new concepts. But if you accept this, you must also accept that every person has this right! In other words, if 'Yellow' is absent to me, and I want to creatively introduce it into my vocabulary, I am free to define it however I want.

 

The only time this is not true is if I want to belong to a group of people. But then it's no longer an issue of language, but an issue of belonging or family. So you might accept someone's definition of 'Yellow' not because these folks know what 'Yellow' is, and not because this solves your spiritual problem for you, but only because it's a precondition for acceptance.

 

I like the creative and playful modality, but only if it's fair and only if it abides by reason. Exclusivist claims are neither fair nor reasonable.

 

Now Gold, if I make ask, what is your beef with teachers and learning from others?

 

I don't have beef with learning. I believe where there is life, there is learning.

 

My problem with teachers is that teachers teach the good together with the bad, indiscriminately. Just think how you came to learn all the stupid ideas that you later had to unlearn? All the wrong and stupid ideas also had their own teachers, just like all the ideas you esteem as "good" or "correct." To give the teachers credit for the good ideas, while refusing to fault them for the bad ideas, is an unbalanced and I would say an un-Taoist perspective.

 

P.S.: Buddhists come to mind here. I've often read things like, "If there are any mistakes in this manuscript, the fault is strictly mine, but if I got anything right, the credit goes to my teacher." This is a perfect example of bullshit where the teachers get all the credit and none of the fault.

Edited November 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[33865_1494798762]

What is the color Yellow? I've never seen it.

 

Assuming I've never had any contact with anyone who had seen Yellow before, how would I ever learn to recognize or distinguish the color? I could read about it in books. I could imagine what they might be like, in my mind's eye perhaps I can even paint what the color Yellow might be. But how can I ever know for sure?

 

Now lets say I find someone who knows what these colors look like. Can she set me strait then? Yes, but not with more words. I still need the experience. So what we can do is, when we find something Yellow, she can point it out. Ah-ha, so that's Yellow!

 

Now what's the point of learning the color Yellow?

 

You assume you could read about it but in fact you could not. You can not imagien what you have no idea about.

The point of "yellow", is that you will have to create it your self, in order to create the "self", it self

Edited November 30, 2009 by Guest

[33865_1494798762]

Edited November 30, 2009 by Guest

[hajimesaito]

The masters do not keep secret. If the masters kept their arts then how would arts like Bagua Zhang spread from Dong Hai Chuan to several people all over China? The students have to first show their interest, dedication and allegiance to the organization for the master to completely reveal all the stuff.

 

If you go one day for a seminar with a famous master, you cannot expect him to show his art very deeply. This would also be injustice and partiality to those disciples who have been staying with the master for years or perhaps decades.

 

There are certain prerequisites or eligibility for some arts - and remember these arts are very deep arts that have the power to completely transform you spiritually, physically and mentally - that a student needs to meet in order for the master to teach him in depth. In general, a master would expect from his disciple the following :-

 

1. Great interest and determination.

2. Patience and perseverance.

3. Having studied for a minimum number of years with the master for him to judge the student properly.

4. Allegiance to the organization and respect for the master for transferring great ancient knowledge to the disciples.

 

A master will not just put all his secrets in a book or dvd and put them in market. This is not the nature of the art. Many times the art itself demands secrecy. The great master Padmasambhava was a Bodhisattva who had compassion for every sentient being, yet he never revealed his teachings to all but a few chosen disciples who had met his requirements. One might think that padmasambhava could have saved more sentient beings by keeping his techniques and teachings open for all instead of passing it as secret. But one has to also take into account the depth of these teachings. A student cannot afford to be casual with them. He or she will have to train in it with full dedication.

 

These masters don't impart knowledge alone that can be passed down in the form of books, but they impart training equally importantly. The student has to train under the watchful eyes of the master.

[Lucky7Strikes]

[TianhuaQigong]

Edited November 30, 2009 by TianhuaQigong