Why do masters keep secrets?

[Old Man Contradiction]

I was wondering if you've heard any stories, or rumors, regarding why masters withhold secrets from students? Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai was kind of on the forefront of freeing knowledge to the public, but yet his influence only extended into his students, who later taught with the same philosophy (hopefully). Anyway, do you know why some masters keep secrets?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Because it's not good to throw pearls before swine......

 

No, seriously.

 

I used to think information should be free and people and teachers should just be out there. Then I read up on some politics, learned how funds get diverted into certain "dead end" projects but the people behind those projects are influential, stuff like that. I was like, the word needs to get out.

 

So I go and start talking to some friends about it. Most of them blew up in my face. They got all angry, oh how dare you say that about our political system, it's the greatest in the world, at least it's not a dictatorship, blah blah blah blah blah. A few people got interested and kept researching, but for the most part the response was overwhelmingly negative.....

 

Now imagine you came up to someone and just started telling them that reality isn't what they think it is, that their spiritual beliefs aren't really what they think they are. If they didn't ignore you because they thought you were nuts right off the bat, then you've just succeeded in seriously pulling the rug out from under them. They usually react in denial, and sometimes in anger. A lot of times it turns to ridicule, and they really will drag whatever you say through the mud.

 

So for politics, spirituality, etc etc, I really do screen my friends before I talk to them about it. Some people I know will not handle it well. Some people have more open minds, are willing to critically examine something with all of the facts before they make a decision, and in those instances I'll open up to them a bit. But other than that.... you know......

 

Experience has made me a more secretive person

 

If you really want to know, take something you really care about and something you know a lot about, but is obscure and generally not well known or accepted as fact (even if it really IS fact), go out and start telling people about it, and see how people respond.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

People can hurt themselves with some stuff.

 

Also, have you ever tried to "teach" someone something? It's very hard to find a way for them to have the same enthusiasm for the subject that you do...they listen to what they want to. So it's a huge waste of energy to teach someone who isn't ready to absorb the info.

 

Plus, maybe secrecy itself motivates people...it's like solving a puzzle. Also, it might cause some people to generate all sorts of fears about the motivations behind the secrecy...and fear is a big source of energy...the only problem is that sometimes people really believe in the fears and quit the path.

 

Just some ideas as to why...I don't personally really know the answers...

[thelerner]

My Sensei used to say 'The things I'm teaching you now, are lies. But necessary ones.'

 

Its like the real truths/secrets are either too simplistic, ridiculous or abstract - you only get to understand them in circuitous manner w/ a little taste here and little there.

 

 

Michael

[fiveelementtao]

It's understandable to want everything out there for all. I have felt this way. I do not feel this way any more. I have learned some secrets and I now believe that some secrets should not be given out without some guidelines.

Some techniques are very powerful and dangerous if done improperly. In some cases the power can be abused to hurt others. So, it's not about hiding things just to be secretive, it's about making sure that those who recieve the secrets are able to handle the power. Some secrets, if used properly can help greatly toward spiritual enlightenment, but if misused can cause illness, insanity or death. Spiritual technologies are tools, they are not the end. We all have everything we need for enlightenment. We don't need any secrets....

I myself have witnessed people lose their sanity from misusing the techniques they had learned out of a greed for power.

This is another reason I am always saying that it is best to learn from a qualified teacher.

 

 

I was wondering if you've heard any stories, or rumors, regarding why masters withhold secrets from students? Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai was kind of on the forefront of freeing knowledge to the public, but yet his influence only extended into his students, who later taught with the same philosophy (hopefully). Anyway, do you know why some masters keep secrets?

Edited November 25, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Biff]

Marketing. Control.

[33865_1494798762]

Edited November 25, 2009 by Guest

[TianhuaQigong]

Because it's not good to throw pearls before swine......

 

No, seriously.

 

I used to think information should be free and people and teachers should just be out there. Then I read up on some politics, learned how funds get diverted into certain "dead end" projects but the people behind those projects are influential, stuff like that. I was like, the word needs to get out.

 

So I go and start talking to some friends about it. Most of them blew up in my face. They got all angry, oh how dare you say that about our political system, it's the greatest in the world, at least it's not a dictatorship, blah blah blah blah blah. A few people got interested and kept researching, but for the most part the response was overwhelmingly negative.....

 

Now imagine you came up to someone and just started telling them that reality isn't what they think it is, that their spiritual beliefs aren't really what they think they are. If they didn't ignore you because they thought you were nuts right off the bat, then you've just succeeded in seriously pulling the rug out from under them. They usually react in denial, and sometimes in anger. A lot of times it turns to ridicule, and they really will drag whatever you say through the mud.

 

So for politics, spirituality, etc etc, I really do screen my friends before I talk to them about it. Some people I know will not handle it well. Some people have more open minds, are willing to critically examine something with all of the facts before they make a decision, and in those instances I'll open up to them a bit. But other than that.... you know......

 

Experience has made me a more secretive person

 

If you really want to know, take something you really care about and something you know a lot about, but is obscure and generally not well known or accepted as fact (even if it really IS fact), go out and start telling people about it, and see how people respond.

 

Right!

 

another points, they spent years and years or all the life to reach the true, they do not just want to give out.

 

also, those true are so simple, even told you , you are not believe in it.

[therion]

.......

Edited December 25, 2009 by therion

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Because it's not good to throw pearls before swine......

 

No, seriously.

 

I used to think information should be free and people and teachers should just be out there. Then I read up on some politics, learned how funds get diverted into certain "dead end" projects but the people behind those projects are influential, stuff like that. I was like, the word needs to get out.

 

So I go and start talking to some friends about it. Most of them blew up in my face. They got all angry, oh how dare you say that about our political system, it's the greatest in the world, at least it's not a dictatorship, blah blah blah blah blah. A few people got interested and kept researching, but for the most part the response was overwhelmingly negative.....

 

Now imagine you came up to someone and just started telling them that reality isn't what they think it is, that their spiritual beliefs aren't really what they think they are. If they didn't ignore you because they thought you were nuts right off the bat, then you've just succeeded in seriously pulling the rug out from under them. They usually react in denial, and sometimes in anger. A lot of times it turns to ridicule, and they really will drag whatever you say through the mud.

 

So for politics, spirituality, etc etc, I really do screen my friends before I talk to them about it. Some people I know will not handle it well. Some people have more open minds, are willing to critically examine something with all of the facts before they make a decision, and in those instances I'll open up to them a bit. But other than that.... you know......

 

Experience has made me a more secretive person

 

If you really want to know, take something you really care about and something you know a lot about, but is obscure and generally not well known or accepted as fact (even if it really IS fact), go out and start telling people about it, and see how people respond.

 

 

You summed it up nicely! I experienced and feel the same way.

[Gerard]

To protect the highest knowledge from students they deemed they were worth it and also from outsiders. I read recently that the notion of secrecy is rooted in martial art history in the Far East and was

especially prevalent during the grass roots Boxer Rebellion of the turn of the century. For example, it was reported that the late Wang Su-Qin, a well known internal arts master in Taiwan, would only teach those who had been initiated into the I-Kuan Tao cult.

 

It is sad to know some masters took along to their graves knowledge that now is completely gone. This really breaks my heart.

 

For instance, in the book, The secret and sublime : Taoist mysteries and magic, John Blofeld, a renowned writer on Asian thought and religion, describes his meetings with Taoist holy sages and recluses in the mountains of China before the communist takeover of the mainland. Below is an account of Taoists in mock battle he observed one evening while a guest at a Taoist hermitage:

 

"The climax of the evening was a combat between two pairs of recluses armed with swords. Dark robes billowing in the wind, sleeves flapping like phoenix-wings, they ran and leapt, cut and thrust with such

agility that their weapons darting in the moonlight produced spurts of liquid fire. The clash of steel on steel and the flurry of sparks proclaimed that the great swords were no toys; it seemed impossible that the contestants would emerge unwounded from an encounter fierce enough for me to expect to see heads and limbs sundered from their bodies. The blows were not feints, but dealt in earnest in the sure knowledge that the opposing adepts had the speed and skill to protect themselves by parrying or swift avoidance. The combat had the

aspect of a frenzied ritual in which the contestants were determined to die beneath one another's swords. By the time it ended, I was sweating with anxiety and could scarcely believe my eyes when the four recluses walked towards the Abbot smiling and unscathed.

 

This may have been the type of experience that influenced Dong Hai Chuan. It was an experience of martial expertise, what masters would have called gao shou (masterful) replete with lightness, great skill, and inward peace reflected in physical form and Taoist practice. In the same text quoted above, Blofeld questioned the Abbot of the monastery about the relationship of Taoist spirituality to martial arts and mental training. His answer was:

 

This principle of voidness and passivity must be carried over into all affairs. As Lao Tzu says: 'He who excels in combat is one who does not let himself be roused.' That the warriors of old flocked to our peaceful hermitages to foster their martial skills is no paradox; they came to learn how to apply the secret of emptiness, how to ensure that the enemy's sword, though aimed at flesh, encounters void, and how to destroy the foe by striking with dispassion. Hatred arouses wrath; wrath breeds excitement; excitement leads to carelessness which, to a warrior, brings death. A master swordsman can slay ten enemies besetting him simultaneously, by virtue of such dispassion that he is able to judge to perfection how to dodge their thrusts. A swordsman or an archer's aim is surest when his mind, concentrated on the work in hand, is indifferent to failure or success. "Stillness in the heart of movement is the secret of all power."

 

I have used the example of Baguazhang, but any other martial art or Taoist alchemical method could have been referred to; however, secrecy of the higher teachings is what they all have in common. Only those who are ready and are worthwhile will have access to them.

 

Taoism is riddled with secrets; it has always been like this.

[sherab]

Great post above.

[33865_1494798762]

Right!

 

another points, they spent years and years or all the life to reach the true, they do not just want to give out.

 

also, those true are so simple, even told you , you are not believe in it.

You just need to know nothing, then you will percieve it.

[Old Man Contradiction]

good posts.

 

I believe that people that are willing to work hard, are the ones that deserve to hear the teachings that lay the path to higher skill. But it makes no sense to me when masters keep secrets, even when a student works hard enough and has the skill to make the teaching his own, and then pass it on to future generations. It seems to me that making sure the art does not die, in quality or in existence, would be the prime directive of a teacher.

 

I do not believe in trying to teach to people who don't want to listen. I especially don't believe in trying to change a person against his/her will. Nevertheless I think that a teacher can intelligently choose to teach new students in a progressive manner, allowing them to achieve extraordinary skill, as well as shortening the students learning curve. (given that the student has the spirit for it)

Edited November 25, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Apech]

I'm tempted to say ... its a secret and I'm not going to tell you why

 

I agree with most of what has already been said - BUT I think we need to remember two things. One is that in the past (and still today in some countries) mystics have been persecuted and even killed. It was necessary to conceal teachings in allegory and hidden symbols and so on - and I think this attitude still persists (East and West).

 

The other thing is that some oral teachings are reserved for one to one initiation in order to preserve the power/impact of the teachings. For instance vajrayana mantras were kept secret - although now they are plastered all over the internet and so on - I think this was to keep them 'special' and as a way of preserving their power - so they are introduced to the pupils mind at the right time to maximum effect. So sometimes the secretiveness is not a bad thing IMO.

[Gerard]

Take a look for example at this ancient Taoist text carved in a wood block:

 

 

At the points indicated by arrows, the teacher would explain the secret meaning of the symbol.

[goldisheavy]

There are many reasons. None of the reasons include protecting the general population. They are all selfish reasons.

 

1. Self-preservation #1: In many countries, if you did not toe the predominant religious line, you could easily be killed. And not just you, but your family as well. So for the sake of self-preservation, many practices and knowledge were kept secret. A lot of the secret knowledge is considered "heretical" in its homeland.

 

2. To maintain an aura of exclusivity and scarcity, thus boosting value and demand. Untrained worldly people always want to know secrets.

 

3. To avoid criticism: People cannot criticize that which they cannot hear or see. Avoiding criticism helps to maintain your brand.

 

4. Self-preservation #2: Fear of your own knowledge being used against you. Some knowledge and techniques are truly effective, which is to say, they can be used for homicide. I might sometimes not want to give you a loaded gun if I think there is a chance you might use that same gun to shoot me. This is self-preservation and fear again. Lack of trust in people's intentions.

 

That's pretty much it.

Edited November 25, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Pietro]

I was wondering if you've heard any stories, or rumors, regarding why masters withhold secrets from students? Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai was kind of on the forefront of freeing knowledge to the public, but yet his influence only extended into his students, who later taught with the same philosophy (hopefully). Anyway, do you know why some masters keep secrets?

 

There is a technique in Taoism called packing. I think it is traditionally transmitted inside the wu style tai ji discipleship. It is not taught traditinally in the open. Mantak Chia came to know it, and taught it freely. By the way Mantak Chia is such kind of guy, he does not keep secrets.

Now the technique (which you can also find in his book) helps to make a person's body stronger. As a side effect it also helps a person to be more detached from his emotions. This is generally not taught by Mantak Chia. (Yes Mantak Chia puts a lot of caveat in his books, on how some techniques can be dangerous, and you should not learn this from books, and so on. The fact that this technique had this side effect was not told. Not in the teachers training for the instructors. I know, I was there, and I tested people years later).

 

Traditionally the technique was used before going to war, so you could be detached from your emotions, not fall into a shock when you killed someone, and keep on fighting. It was a very important technique, as it would raise the probability that you would come back all in one piece. And then, once you were back, you would be treated. The emotions released, the shock absorbed, the blockages dissolved. All things which are easier to be done when you are alive...

 

Now what happens when you give this technique to a person who passes his life in front of a computer?

He does it to detach from his frustration, suppress it, keep going... until he falls ill, or explodes.

 

This is a technique that has little or no use in our modern world. But it still needs to be preserved, for in another time it might be really important (not so much time from now, if the situation continues as we are seeing).

 

This brings up the concept of lineage master. Lineage masters are people who are not just masters, but they have been given the full set of techniques of a tradition. Which also include the techniques that are not being taught for similar reasons. They have the responsibility to pass this knowledge to the next generations. In a way that it would arrive intact 7 generations from now. That's long term thinking.

 

Now, of course, it would be possible to teach it if the teacher had the possibility to go into all the details, and explain why, when to do it, and what to do if something go wrong, and how to change the technique according to the person. And this is the way instructors and disciples are being taught in serious schools. But it takes a long time. And not everybody has the time. And not everybody would be able to learn it. (Some teachings are actually hard to learn).

 

Also, as I mentioned earlier, some techniques can be really dangerous for some people. Can make them go crazy. Sometimes it would be possible for those people to do those techniques if they are being supervised. And even maybe restrained at times, to avoid them harming themselves. So again we are hitting the wall of scarcity of resources. Think if you wanted to use inner dissolving to help a person who has schizophrenia.

You need a teacher who is really good in that technique, and the adequate facilities (monastery, hospital), with strong people around the schizophrenic person all the time. Before you can try to teach that technique to such person.

 

In short some techniques are dangerous. Some people are ill. When you teach everything out in the open, you are getting the most dangerous technique in the hands of the most ill person. Would you give a loaded gun in the hands of a young kid? Who is affected by depression?

[goldisheavy]

There is a technique in Taoism called packing. I think it is traditionally transmitted inside the wu style tai ji discipleship. It is not taught traditinally in the open. Mantak Chia came to know it, and taught it freely. By the way Mantak Chia is such kind of guy, he does not keep secrets.

Now the technique (which you can also find in his book) helps to make a person's body stronger. As a side effect it also helps a person to be more detached from his emotions. This is generally not taught by Mantak Chia. (Yes Mantak Chia puts a lot of caveat in his books, on how some techniques can be dangerous, and you should not learn this from books, and so on. The fact that this technique had this side effect was not told. Not in the teachers training for the instructors. I know, I was there, and I tested people years later).

 

Traditionally the technique was used before going to war, so you could be detached from your emotions, not fall into a shock when you killed someone, and keep on fighting. It was a very important technique, as it would raise the probability that you would come back all in one piece. And then, once you were back, you would be treated. The emotions released, the shock absorbed, the blockages dissolved. All things which are easier to be done when you are alive...

 

Now what happens when you give this technique to a person who passes his life in front of a computer?

He does it to detach from his frustration, suppress it, keep going... until he falls ill, or explodes.

 

This is a technique that has little or no use in our modern world. But it still needs to be preserved, for in another time it might be really important (not so much time from now, if the situation continues as we are seeing).

 

This brings up the concept of lineage master. Lineage masters are people who are not just masters, but they have been given the full set of techniques of a tradition. Which also include the techniques that are not being taught for similar reasons. They have the responsibility to pass this knowledge to the next generations. In a way that it would arrive intact 7 generations from now. That's long term thinking.

 

Now, of course, it would be possible to teach it if the teacher had the possibility to go into all the details, and explain why, when to do it, and what to do if something go wrong, and how to change the technique according to the person. And this is the way instructors and disciples are being taught in serious schools. But it takes a long time. And not everybody has the time. And not everybody would be able to learn it. (Some teachings are actually hard to learn).

 

Also, as I mentioned earlier, some techniques can be really dangerous for some people. Can make them go crazy. Sometimes it would be possible for those people to do those techniques if they are being supervised. And even maybe restrained at times, to avoid them harming themselves. So again we are hitting the wall of scarcity of resources. Think if you wanted to use inner dissolving to help a person who has schizophrenia.

You need a teacher who is really good in that technique, and the adequate facilities (monastery, hospital), with strong people around the schizophrenic person all the time. Before you can try to teach that technique to such person.

 

In short some techniques are dangerous. Some people are ill. When you teach everything out in the open, you are getting the most dangerous technique in the hands of the most ill person. Would you give a loaded gun in the hands of a young kid? Who is affected by depression?

 

Unfortunately this is not the real reason for secrets.

 

In reality, all you have to do is to give people a warning. For example, did you know that taking a bottle or two of tylenol is guaranteed to kill you? And yet you can buy it over the counter, no problem. Why? That's because we have this concept called "responsibility". We tell you how the medicine works, and what the dangers are, and we leave it up to you.

 

Do some depressed people commit suicide via tylenol? Absolutely, they do, and it's a horrendous way to die (due to liver failure). Is this an argument for keeping tylenol a secret? No, absolutely it is not.

 

How about simple things like kitchen knifes or matches? A single match can burn down the building. If you smoke your cigarette in bed and it falls out of your mouth as you fall asleep, you can burn down the house, kill yourself and others in it. Is it dangerous? Yes. Are matches dangerous? Yes. Are they lethal? Yes. Can suicidal people use the matches to commit suicide? YES, and they have. Can matches be used to kill others? Yes, and it's called "arson". Is that an argument to keep matches a secret? NO, it is not. We sell matches in every store.

 

Kitchen knives. Pencils. Screw drivers. Hammers. Chain saws. Circular saws. Cars. Electricity in our homes.

 

Our world is full of things that can kill you in the blink of an eye. And yet none of them are secret. So how do we protect people then? We do it by explaining the proper usage and dangers. And we have pictures and videos of the victims. We tell you all about it and let you decide. We let YOU take responsibility. This is our way and has been forever.

 

So the nanny-ism is not a true reason why secrets are kept. Never. I gave the real, honest, true reasons. Read them and understand.

[~jK~]

[Marblehead]

The title of this thread reminded me of a story.

 

An exceptional student of a great master decided to challenge the master in order to show off how well he had learned what the master had taught.

 

The exchange lasted only 30 seconds. The student was flat on the floor.

 

The student said, "I thought I had learned well everything you had taught us."

 

The master replied, "Ah, yes, indeed. Although you have learned well and now know everything I have taught you it does not mean that I have taught you everything I know."

 

Peace & Love!

Edited November 25, 2009 by Marblehead

[Pietro]

Unfortunately this is not the real reason for secrets.

 

In reality, all you have to do is to give people a warning. For example, did you know that taking a bottle or two of tylenol is guaranteed to kill you? And yet you can buy it over the counter, no problem. Why? That's because we have this concept called "responsibility". We tell you how the medicine works, and what the dangers are, and we leave it up to you.

 

Do some depressed people commit suicide via tylenol? Absolutely, they do, and it's a horrendous way to die (due to liver failure). Is this an argument for keeping tylenol a secret? No, absolutely it is not.

 

How about simple things like kitchen knifes or matches? A single match can burn down the building. If you smoke your cigarette in bed and it falls out of your mouth as you fall asleep, you can burn down the house, kill yourself and others in it. Is it dangerous? Yes. Are matches dangerous? Yes. Are they lethal? Yes. Can suicidal people use the matches to commit suicide? YES, and they have. Can matches be used to kill others? Yes, and it's called "arson". Is that an argument to keep matches a secret? NO, it is not. We sell matches in every store.

 

Kitchen knives. Pencils. Screw drivers. Hammers. Chain saws. Circular saws. Cars. Electricity in our homes.

 

Our world is full of things that can kill you in the blink of an eye. And yet none of them are secret. So how do we protect people then? We do it by explaining the proper usage and dangers. And we have pictures and videos of the victims. We tell you all about it and let you decide. We let YOU take responsibility. This is our way and has been forever.

 

So the nanny-ism is not a true reason why secrets are kept. Never. I gave the real, honest, true reasons. Read them and understand.

Guns are not legal in many countries, and where they are legal the number of people dying because of them is much higher. You might agree or not that guns should be legal, but you have to admit that the argument against having guns for free is a valid one. Here is the same. You might not agree, you might think there are other reasons as well. But to speak about the true reason is childish.

[C T]

There are many reasons. None of the reasons include protecting the general population. They are all selfish reasons.

 

4. Self-preservation #2: Fear of your own knowledge being used against you. Some knowledge and techniques are truly effective, which is to say, they can be used for homicide. I might sometimes not want to give you a loaded gun if I think there is a chance you might use that same gun to shoot me. This is self-preservation and fear again. Lack of trust in people's intentions.

 

That's pretty much it.

Absolutely agree with the above.

 

 

 

Also, in the old days, the masters withheld secrets, in addition to GIH's point no.4, in the event the student(s) are captured and tortured, they would not be able to reveal to the 'enemy' what they do not know. And physical torture was not the only means used in attempts to extract secrets - prevalent at that time were beings with supernatural abilities and magic, black or white, mind-reading, mind-control, dim-mak and hypnosis -- as long as the students do not possess the secrets, no matter what means are employed, the secrets stayed safe.

 

However, the masters would usually reveal the most potent secrets to the one most filial student, not necessarily the most senior though, just before they pass away. If there was no such affinity felt with any of the students, the secrets go to the graves with the masters.

[goldisheavy]

Guns are not legal in many countries, and where they are legal the number of people dying because of them is much higher.

 

This is actually false. Why don't you look up some statistics.

[松永道]

Timing is one of the keys to the doors of a student's mind.

Teach too complex and the student is confused, shuts you out.

There can even be long term damage to the learning ability.

 

Timing is right.

 

But it's not just a matter of the student shutting out the teaching.

 

When we study math as children, do our teachers give us a problem only to directly answer it for us? Of course not, learning to solve problems is, after all, the point of education. The actual answer is pointless.

 

Secrets are answers.

 

And if you're simply handed the answers right away then what have you done? In Quanzhen Daoist cultivation (and I'm sure other systems as well), it is important to learn the practice first, and through practice, discover the inner workings. This is called separating reality from lies. Communication with the teacher is important because he/she will know if you're on the right or wrong course and can give you further instruction. If you knew what results to expect, your mind may easily create these sensations in lieu of actually practicing them into reality.