Not all truth is beautiful

[goldisheavy]

http://blogs.tampabay.com/photo/2009/11/te...s-personal.html

 

This speaks for itself.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, reality really sucks sometimes.

 

Some of these realities can be changed and some cannot. What was spoken of above can be changed though.

 

But if we just sit by and watch those things happen and do nothing about it nothing will change.

 

And it is up to the people involved to make the changes. If they do nothing, nothing will change.

 

We can make the truth more beautiful if we will it so.

 

Peace & Love!

[hagar]

Truth is paved with paradox.

 

As I watch those images, I am overwhelmed. To what degree they have had to suffer, and to what degree they have to live with the past.

 

At the same time, there is nothing inherently ugly in these faces. Even seeing their injuries, their woundedness is even more beautiful, but in a profoundly painful way. Revealing their damages is an act of beauty and courage.

 

Also, imagine the state of fear and ignorance those men live in to do these acts. How fragile they must be, how completely removed from themselves they are. How much you must suffer to be able to do that.

 

h

[goldisheavy]

And it is up to the people involved to make the changes. If they do nothing, nothing will change.

 

We are all involved whether we like it or not.

 

We can make the truth more beautiful if we will it so.

 

I agree.

 

Even seeing their injuries, their woundedness is even more beautiful, but in a profoundly painful way.

 

Would you take one of the more damaged women to be your wife?

 

Revealing their damages is an act of beauty and courage.

 

Yes, it takes a lot of guts to consent to such a candid photograph.

 

Also, imagine the state of fear and ignorance those men live in to do these acts. How fragile they must be, how completely removed from themselves they are. How much you must suffer to be able to do that.

 

h

 

If everyone's a victim, who will take responsibility?

[Marblehead]

We are all involved whether we like it or not.

 

I actually expected a similar response from my post. I do agree with you but I did want to point out that it is more the problem of those directly involved than of those who have very limited effects on the situation.

 

(I would not tolerate that kind of stuff in my world.)

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

I actually expected a similar response from my post. I do agree with you but I did want to point out that it is more the problem of those directly involved than of those who have very limited effects on the situation.

 

(I would not tolerate that kind of stuff in my world.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

I think that's true to some extent. Many neighborhoods in Europe that didn't know these kinds of problems in the past, know them now. Sometimes shit floats to your shores, even if you didn't invite it.

[Marblehead]

I think that's true to some extent. Many neighborhoods in Europe that didn't know these kinds of problems in the past, know them now. Sometimes shit floats to your shores, even if you didn't invite it.

 

Yep. I totally agree. This is why I think it is important for all of us to be aware of not only what is going on in our immidiate surroundings but around the world as well. If there are injustices happening someplace on the planet and nothing is done to stop it there is an excellent chance that this injustice will spread like a virus and infect other parts of the world.

 

Europe was slow to wake up to their new reality. They are finally doing something about it. I am an American. We have not yet woke up to this reality as witnessed by what recently happened in Texas.

 

If we do not kill the disease it will continue to grow. (I don't use the word 'kill' lightly here - killing it can be done through education and peaceful actions as well as through violence.)

 

Peace & Love!

[hagar]

We are all involved whether we like it or not.

I agree.

Would you take one of the more damaged women to be your wife?

Yes, it takes a lot of guts to consent to such a candid photograph.

If everyone's a victim, who will take responsibility?

 

I took the question to be about truth and its relationship to beauty vs ugliness.

The question should probably be, if I loved someone, would this love dissolve if they became disfigured?

Some part of us are always repulsed by these damages, in their uncanny nature. When I saw death for the first time, it repulsed me. But what came through beneath that was the glory.

Yet beauty is inherently connected to the sublime, which can be terrifying. Truth on the other hand is beyond beauty and ugliness.

 

We are all responsible, and we are all victims. The one who do these acts are personally responsible, but holding them responsible by intervention will not remove the underlying problem. This hate is our hate, these acts are our acts, this suffering is ours.

 

What is more important is to ask form where does this fire come from? What keeps it burning, how do we embody it?

We are all faces of the same man.

 

h

Edited November 25, 2009 by hagar

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

There is no room for subjective value judgements like beauty/ugly.. these are energetic beings, radiant in their 'beingness'.. the perpetrators are energetic beings, too.. radiating their vengence for their own pain, dissonate and chaotic.. if all you see is the being's image, then you have missed the 'truth' of the being..

 

Yes, the images should shock us.. not because of beauty/ugly, but.. due to the deep misunderstandings that inspire people to harm other 'aspects of their own existence' in this manner.. hurt one/hurt all ~ help one/help all..

 

I honor the wisdom of agrarian cultures.. a healthy garden requires prudent pruning..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

We are all responsible, and we are all victims. The one who do these acts are personally responsible, but holding them responsible by intervention will not remove the underlying problem. This hate is our hate, these acts are our acts, this suffering is ours.

 

What is more important is to ask form where does this fire come from? What keeps it burning, how do we embody it?

We are all faces of the same man.

 

h

 

This is a great post.

 

When we feel jealous or hatred, we must see that the roots of them are not so different from what propelled those men to act in this way.

 

One may say that the "thought" and the "act" are different, but the intentions are nonetheless the same. We are the same man when lost in these disturbing emotions.

[doc benway]

Hagar - as always, your words are direct and true.

How is it that humanity can transform itself?

We have suffered like this for centuries.

Nothing has helped us - not our religions, our politicians, our philosophy, technology.

None of it -

What will it take for us to wake up and begin to love?

[Aetherous]

Sorry guys, but I disagree...

 

When we feel jealous or hatred, we must see that the roots of them are not so different from what propelled those men to act in this way.

 

I think they are very different. The people who commit these types of acts, do it completely out of ignorance and lack of compassion. They have been in power too long, and have too little authority that is able to 'put them in their place.'

 

On the other hand, people (like me) that hate those who do such things, hate out of compassion for those who were disfigured.

 

It's not as if this hatred overwhelms me with emotion, or causes me to lose my ability to think clearly...so I see no problem with "hatred", despite people often thinking it's a bad thing.

 

There is a time and place for it, and this is it.

 

Furthermore, those who want to punish or kill the people who did these things will be accomplishing something...horrible things will stop happening in the world! One by one, as each person responsible is removed, less and less atrocities occur...little by little. Every atrocity prevented from happening is something huge, at least in that victim's life.

 

They say "Live by the sword and you will die by it", but they should add... "Or choose to live comfortably, and have others pay the price for you."

 

Not saying anything about anyone here, and I respect all opinions on the issue because it's a tough one...

[doc benway]

Sorry guys, but I disagree...

I think they are very different. The people who commit these types of acts, do it completely out of ignorance and lack of compassion. They have been in power too long, and have too little authority that is able to 'put them in their place.'

 

On the other hand, people (like me) that hate those who do such things, hate out of compassion for those who were disfigured.

 

It's not as if this hatred overwhelms me with emotion, or causes me to lose my ability to think clearly...so I see no problem with "hatred", despite people often thinking it's a bad thing.

 

There is a time and place for it, and this is it.

 

Furthermore, those who want to punish or kill the people who did these things will be accomplishing something...horrible things will stop happening in the world! One by one, as each person responsible is removed, less and less atrocities occur...little by little. Every atrocity prevented from happening is something huge, at least in that victim's life.

 

They say "Live by the sword and you will die by it", but they should add... "Or choose to live comfortably, and have others pay the price for you."

 

Not saying anything about anyone here, and I respect all opinions on the issue because it's a tough one...

Because we cannot fathom the mind that would give birth to such an act, we make the error of seeing ourselves as separate from and "better than" those would do such terrible things. This will never lead to meaningful change. It is a very difficult thing to do, but we must try to understand the mind that would do something like this. They are also thinking clearly, within their frame of reference. They recognize the implications of what they do. Their acts are even CONDONED by their culture, implicitly if not explicitly. This is the power of conditioning.

 

Look at South Africa - young children, even babies are raped regularly due to the myth that sex with a virgin will protect against AIDS. The government for many years did nothing to dispel the myth for fear of public uprising. They still don't do enough. Ironically, many of the rapists are already infected and simply spread the disease further. US foreign policy initiated under Bush blocked all federal aid to programs if there was any use of condoms. This allowed further spread of AIDS, unwanted pregnancy, and so on...

 

Look at forced female circumcision. Look at Rwanda. Look at Bosnian rape camps and death camps. Look at Southeast Asian oil pipelines. Look at the diamond trade, sexual slavery in Thailand. The horrific treatment of female children in China. I'm peripherally involved with a group that provides support in the US for refugees who are the survivors of torture and abuse. The African continent is absolutely rife with political torture and exploitation.

 

This is humanity. This is our world. For every beauty there is a horror. This, unfortunately, is the human manifestation of Tai Ji. For every extreme of good there is an equal and opposite bad, more or less. The good defines that bad, just as front defines back.

 

We can remove the individuals, we can remove the political leaders, we can do so violently or quietly. Nothing will change from the outside. It hasn't changed since the beginnings of human civilization. People must change from the bottom up if there is ever to be any change. The source of the conditioning must change. How can that happen?

[Aetherous]

Steve,

 

we make the error of seeing ourselves as separate from and "better than" those would do such terrible things. This will never lead to meaningful change.

 

In my view, it has nothing to do with seeing ourselves as better than them...it's solely about preventing horrible things from happening.

 

For every beauty there is a horror. This, unfortunately, is the human manifestation of Tai Ji.

 

I totally disagree. We have the power to change this world. It can become less horrible.

 

Nothing will change from the outside.

 

This is very untrue. It's a huge change to prevent even one of the women in these pictures from being hurt.

[doc benway]

Steve,

In my view, it has nothing to do with seeing ourselves as better than them...it's solely about preventing horrible things from happening.

I totally disagree. We have the power to change this world. It can become less horrible.

This is very untrue. It's a huge change to prevent even one of the women in these pictures from being hurt.

Then what are you waiting for?

What is everyone else in the world waiting for?

Why hasn't it changed yet?

[Aetherous]

The world is changing all the time. I think it's gotten better, especially in "civilized/modern" areas, where peace is the norm. I do not believe that it's because of "taiji" that there are good areas, and bad areas...it's just because the civilizations haven't mixed enough yet.

 

When we make sure that we're doing good in our lives, we're doing our part...some, like you (being involved in that organization), do more than their part.

 

I tried to do more at one point, joining the guard, but it ended up being a huge waste of time. I didn't make the change I wanted to at all, although I made other lesser ones...we never know how much our presence impacts others, and when the seeds that we inevitably plant will sprout. By being a decent person, we are unknowingly changing everything mysteriously.

[doc benway]

The world is changing all the time. I think it's gotten better, especially in "civilized/modern" areas, where peace is the norm. I do not believe that it's because of "taiji" that there are good areas, and bad areas...it's just because the civilizations haven't mixed enough yet.

 

When we make sure that we're doing good in our lives, we're doing our part...some, like you (being involved in that organization), do more than their part.

 

I tried to do more at one point, joining the guard, but it ended up being a huge waste of time. I didn't make the change I wanted to at all, although I made other lesser ones...we never know how much our presence impacts others, and when the seeds that we inevitably plant will sprout. By being a decent person, we are unknowingly changing everything mysteriously.

Unfortunately, the world seems better in the "civilized/modern" areas exactly because of the misery that occurs in the "uncivilized/primitive" areas. There is a reason why the US has less than 1% of the world's population and uses somewhere around 20% of the world's resources. The developed world is such at the cost of the underdeveloped world. Arguably, one could state that it is exactly the mixing of cultures that is tending to polarize and cause extremism in some due to the threat of assimilation.

 

The rest of your post is exactly the point I'm trying to make - we are in complete agreement. The world can only change if each and every one of us makes the choice of love and compassion as individuals. My questions about how the world could change were rhetorical. We need to really think on this very seriously as individuals so that we can find the answers for ourselves. I've suffered for years about this stuff. When I turned ~ 35 I underwent a dramatic change. After years of working hard and playing the game like a good contributor to the economy, I woke up from a perspective of moral and social responsibility. It happened to coincide with the aftermath of the Rwandan and Bosnian genocides. This was the beginning of my serious investigation into myself, spirituality, suffering, and all that jazz. Like your experience in the guard, I've come to understand that institutions, be they political, social, religious, will and have always failed. Sure there are small isolated gains and those are balanced with loss. They inevitably succumb to politics and corruption or compromise (which are all one and the same, anyway).

 

I don't mean to sound as if I'm callous. I care very deeply about the pain and suffering demonstrated in these awful photos and the countless other injustices we could never finish listing in our lifetime. But the only thing that I can do seems to be to treat those around me with love and compassion and hope that will propagate.

Nevertheless, in the history of humanity there has never been an end to suffering. Technological advancement may have improved the lives of some but I believe that there is no less suffering in the world now than ever before. If anything, those most primitive cultures that have not been corrupted yet by "civilization" are the few bastions of really moral and ethical humans, IMO. I would go so far as to say that morality and compassion are true human nature and it is modern civilization, social convention, and conditioning that have perverted our true nature.

 

You can assert that the balance of beauty and horror in humanity is not a reflection of the balance of yin and yang but I challenge you to really look into the question deeply. We only know beauty by it's contrast to ugliness. We only know pain by it's contrast with pleasure. If all was good, we would not recognize it as such. We would have no concept of it as there would be nothing to define it as things are defined by contrast. This is the point of the very famous Zhuangzi parable about "when the shoe fits, the foot is forgotten" - if there was no dark, light would have no meaning. This is at the very heart of Daoist philosophy and science, the nature of things - Tai Ji. Which brings us back to gold's initial point - not all truth is beautiful, I'll editorialize that truth is more accurately a balance of beauty and ugliness. And yet, this is not as bad a thing as it may seem because understanding and embracing this balance seems to me to be the foundation of love.

 

All that hot air aside, given the opportunity, I would personally and gladly exact vengeance on behalf of the poor women depicted in those horrific photos.

[hagar]

Steve and Scotty

 

You both pose valid arguments.

 

I am a conscientious objector, yet if Norway was invaded I would probably take to arms. Who knows? Given the right conditions, pushed far enough, or long enough, I know deep down that there is no real limit to what I could do. We never know.

 

When 9-11 happened, I worked with Somali refugees. One Somali employee at the fascility I worked at said she was glad to see the towers crash down. She was so angry at the US. She had seen her country invaded by US troops.

 

I felt such an anger surge up in me when she said those words. But it shocked me to the core. This anger is just there. It is not a result of the womans acceptace of the attacks. This anger is waiting to be released to a deserving target. There is never a reason to hate. This hate is allready there in its latent form by nature of how we percieve reality.

 

The Pakistani men who did these terrible acts can never be right in what they did. Yet they felt they were right, in their anger. The worst of all had appened. They had lost the one thing the could not let go of; their honor.

What would happen if I lost absolutely everything? I may be capable of unimaginable acts. We do not know until we know.

 

Until we too are faced with losing everthing, are we able to understand these men. In the moment we are able to see that our sacred space is resting in their eyes, and that these men are probably capable of deep affection and love, can we start to mend the world.

 

These women are innocent, those men are guilty, yet in essence we are the ones on trial.

 

h

[Aetherous]

Excellent post, Hagar...really turned my mind around.

 

I will think about it deeply. Thanks for that.

[goldisheavy]

I strongly disagree with hagar saying that "anger is just there". No anger is not "just there." There are causes and conditions for it.

 

Anger is a response to a violation of identity. Period. For example, unfairness. Why does it hurt? It hurts because we believe we are due something that we're not getting. This belief in a certain level of decent treatment is a belief about what it is I deserve, and ultimately a believe about what I am. Personal identity. Things like honor have everything, 100%, to do with personal identity.

 

So being dishonored means your sense of identity was violated. Response is fight or flight, anger or sadness. It's that simple. Anger then is split into various conducts. Are you angry at a man? If so, shoot him. Are you angry at a woman? If so, pour acid on her and rape her. Why such different treatment? This is because anger outpourings are conditioned by beliefs. Which beliefs? Cultural ones. Where do those come from? In strongly religious communities those beliefs come from ... ta da dam ta daaaammmm.... religion! Mostly religion. And then 30% of mish mush (neighboring cultures, older religions, oddball superstitions and other stuff). Do not bury your fucking hand in the sand. Understand that in a strongly religious community religion is a strong impact on the culture and IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the crimes of that culture. It's not solely responsible, yes. There are other factors, but it is a strong conditioning factor.

 

So it's not "just anger". It's a conditioned anger. For example, if I am furious, I might hit my table with a fist. Why don't I pour acid on someone? I am not conditioned like that. I would sooner shoot the person in the head, or cut their head off with a knife than to disfigure them with acid. Why? That's my conditioning. I think that even in violence there are some unwritten rules of conduct, and some things are just too horrible even in violence (like maiming). That's my conditioning.

 

And then identity is important. For example, if a woman ditches me, is my identity hurt? Not much! Why not? Because I don't base my identity on a strong sense of manly gender superiority.

 

On the other hand, imagine if I thought I was worth so much more than a woman (as is written in Koran and Hadith and the Old Testament). I would be thinking, "How dare that bitch ditch me??? WHO THE FUCK IS SHE??? I AM A FUCKING MAN!! I AM SO MUCH MORE WORTHY.... HOW DARE SOME LAPDOG BITCH dismiss me???? OH, I will show her her place... I'll make sure no one will ever love that bitch again." Yes? Under what conditions would I think like that? Under condition of strong gender superiority. I would feel indignant that someone worthless would have the gall to disapprove of me. How dare they??? Let's put them back in their place. This is a conditioned response.

 

It's NOT JUST ANGER waiting to come out. NO. There is a reason for it! And conditions.

 

This is why we must be careful with religions, doctrines and cultural assumptions. Not all cultural elements are good for us. Those of us who enjoy peace and those of us who enjoy non-violence, we have to defend those virtues. If you are too soft, your peaceful and non-violent community will be trampled upon sometimes. Too much open-mindedness is bad. I am not so open-minded as to be accepting of genital mutilation, for example. I have some limits to my (insanely vast) open-mindedness and I believe those limits are good and have a purpose.

[hagar]

I strongly disagree with hagar saying that "anger is just there". No anger is not "just there." There are causes and conditions for it.

 

Anger is a response to a violation of identity. Period. For example, unfairness. Why does it hurt? It hurts because we believe we are due something that we're not getting. This belief in a certain level of decent treatment is a belief about what it is I deserve, and ultimately a believe about what I am. Personal identity. Things like honor have everything, 100%, to do with personal identity.

 

So being dishonored means your sense of identity was violated. Response is fight or flight, anger or sadness. It's that simple. Anger then is split into various conducts. Are you angry at a man? If so, shoot him. Are you angry at a woman? If so, pour acid on her and rape her. Why such different treatment? This is because anger outpourings are conditioned by beliefs. Which beliefs? Cultural ones. Where do those come from? In strongly religious communities those beliefs come from ... ta da dam ta daaaammmm.... religion! Mostly religion. And then 30% of mish mush (neighboring cultures, older religions, oddball superstitions and other stuff). Do not bury your fucking hand in the sand. Understand that in a strongly religious community religion is a strong impact on the culture and IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the crimes of that culture. It's not solely responsible, yes. There are other factors, but it is a strong conditioning factor.

 

So it's not "just anger". It's a conditioned anger. For example, if I am furious, I might hit my table with a fist. Why don't I pour acid on someone? I am not conditioned like that. I would sooner shoot the person in the head, or cut their head off with a knife than to disfigure them with acid. Why? That's my conditioning. I think that even in violence there are some unwritten rules of conduct, and some things are just too horrible even in violence (like maiming). That's my conditioning.

 

And then identity is important. For example, if a woman ditches me, is my identity hurt? Not much! Why not? Because I don't base my identity on a strong sense of manly gender superiority.

 

On the other hand, imagine if I thought I was worth so much more than a woman (as is written in Koran and Hadith and the Old Testament). I would be thinking, "How dare that bitch ditch me??? WHO THE FUCK IS SHE??? I AM A FUCKING MAN!! I AM SO MUCH MORE WORTHY.... HOW DARE SOME LAPDOG BITCH dismiss me???? OH, I will show her her place... I'll make sure no one will ever love that bitch again." Yes? Under what conditions would I think like that? Under condition of strong gender superiority. I would feel indignant that someone worthless would have the gall to disapprove of me. How dare they??? Let's put them back in their place. This is a conditioned response.

 

It's NOT JUST ANGER waiting to come out. NO. There is a reason for it! And conditions.

 

This is why we must be careful with religions, doctrines and cultural assumptions. Not all cultural elements are good for us. Those of us who enjoy peace and those of us who enjoy non-violence, we have to defend those virtues. If you are too soft, your peaceful and non-violent community will be trampled upon sometimes. Too much open-mindedness is bad. I am not so open-minded as to be accepting of genital mutilation, for example. I have some limits to my (insanely vast) open-mindedness and I believe those limits are good and have a purpose.

 

Hmm. It seems I may have been misunderstood. It's not so much that anger is allready there to be released.

The seeds for the conditioned state that feeds the emotion is there. And that is on a deeper level than the convictions, cultural biases, and views on women. It is the vulnerability of the misconception that there is a "me". We all have these convictions. And they must be let go of. Actually, the hardest ones to let go of are the beliefs of the "good". Before we really let go, and realize that we are nothing, we can't be on the side of the "good". Virtues are not to be defended. They either are there as a natural consequence of a natural state of emptiness, or they are just beliefs.

 

It's a paradoxical subject.

The dude to explain it better than I ever can is this wonderful little man: The Bee Daoist of Wudan. Please watch the entire clip. Its all contained in what he says:

 

h

[Marblehead]

 

h

 

What a GREAT video!!! Thanks for sharing that.

 

And what a fantastic discussion that has been going on here! You guys are great!

 

I will speak to two issues (very briefly) that have been discussed.

 

First, I think that much of the hatred that has been discussed here could be eliminated through education. No, I won't suggest that this would be an easy undertaking. But I believe it could be done if the world would put forth the effort - and yes, it would require an effort by the entire would - a mindset by the nations that have 'enough' to share with those that do not have 'enough'.

 

Secondly, Steve mentioned the concept of dualities. I don't disagree with what he said. I will, however, suggest that it does not have to be that way. True, our brain works according to the concept of dualities but we can overcome this 'natural' process through understanding and a willingness to see beyond dualities.

 

I suggest that there is no absolute need to see and define ugly in order to see beauty. Beauty is a singularity. So is ugly. We can remove ugly and have only beauty remaining. No, it is not easy. I still have not attained this condition in its total fullness but I ahve experienced it many times and therefore I know it is possible. And if it is possible for me then it is possible for everyone else. But it requires learning and understanding. This is where education is needed.

 

IMO, those who have caused evil need be punished. If they are not punished it is basically saying that it is okay to do such things. Through justice and education the condition of man can be greatly improved. Yes, the changes will be difficult because we are talking about cultural tradition. These changes are slow in the making. But they can be made.

 

It is up to the leaders of the nations of the world to determine that a change needs be made. We, the people, can force the leaders to accept this mindset. Once the mindset is established the journey will begin. But it will never begin if we, the people, do not insist that these changes be made. And no, it will not be easy. This can be seen by the fact that it has not yet happened.

 

Peace & Love!

[Andrei]

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